300+ consecutive games banning Zed - Heres a few things I've learned.

Dope Solo·Jun 19, 2019·37 votes·8,417 views

Worth it, meaning no other single ban has more capacity for making a match fair/playable.
No other champ has the same capacity for roaming and wrecking an entire game all by itself.
Riot deletes anti-Zed posts.
Counterplay in league exists, just not on Zed who's been welfare pumped time and again into some rioters faker wet dream.
His range + damage on Q is toxic and shouldn't exist.
His escape capacity is extremely toxic and shouldn't exist.
His wave clear is extremely strong for ZERO mana.
Zed is often banned by both teams.
No data is currently available for the number of games that were dodged after Zed picks.
Even a competent midlaner comfortable with the match doesn't ban Zed for themselves, they ban him for the rest of the team.

65 Comments

Rock MDJun 19, 201919 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-19T01:53:30.951+0000)

Worth it, meaning no other single ban has more capacity for making a match fair/playable.

Yuumi, lmao. Champion is gross and chokes out games when she's even.

No other champ has the same capacity for roaming and wrecking an entire game all by itself.

Talon

Riot deletes anti-Zed posts.

You mean like the Zed/Yasuo posts that go up to +50 once a week?

Counterplay in league exists, just not on Zed who's been welfare pumped time and again into some rioters faker wet dream.

He still has the same counterplay, including dodging his shurikens, Zhonya's, QSS, teamfight, and keep track of what shadows he's used. He also has no lane presence for the first 3-4 waves so you can set up massively for him.

His range + damage on Q is toxic and shouldn't exist.

It's on a long CD, it's very easily punishable as he no longer has tools to control the wave, and buying armor goes a long way into making it not very much damage.

His escape capacity is extremely toxic and shouldn't exist.

It's got a 20+ second CD and can't be used if he's using it for his "toxic damage".

His wave clear is extremely strong for ZERO mana.

His waveclear also forces him to get into melee range of the wave, making him a very easy target for skillshots. It is strong, conditional waveclear and when he activates that condition it's very easy to punish him.

At the end of the day you can ban whatever the hell you want but none of these points are good.

EDIT: was writing this half afk. QSS doesn't work on Zed ultimate.

Serika ZeroJun 19, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-06-19T04:11:47.702+0000)

He still has the same counterplay, including dodging his shurikens, Zhonya's, QSS, teamfight, and keep track of what shadows he's used. He also has no lane presence for the first 3-4 waves so you can set up massively for him.

Are you the OP ? because it sounds like you didn't play as Zed or against Zed in like 4 seasons

QSS no longer removes his ult. You should reevaluate all your points about Zed, maybe play him 5-10 times, then come back to us and say what you learned (besides the QSS is useless)

Rock MDJun 19, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-06-19T05:02:55.210+0000)

Are you the OP ? because it sounds like you didn't play as Zed or against Zed in like 4 seasons

QSS no longer removes his ult. You should reevaluate all your points about Zed, maybe play him 5-10 times, then come back to us and say what you learned (besides the QSS is useless)

Nah I was just thinking about the counterplay to Morde and I blanked out and said QSS.

Fact of the matter is I play vs. better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life. Just played vs. a Zed smurf (65% winrate over 260 games, Master tier, fresh account) and I didn't die until the last teamfight. I don't think he's an issue because he's very easy to control in the first 3-4 minutes of the laning phase and you can use that to set the tempo for the rest of the lane.

But most people see this game as a fighting game and it shows when they think Zed is OP.

Serika ZeroJun 19, 20195 votes

and i was playing against a leblank smurf in euw, that's actually a challanger and was streaming on his smurf. While getting my smurf to g4 as well. still won.

I don't think "better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life" counts since, well you know, eu mid laners. half of your pro scene in murica is eu mid laners or koreans.

I'd get if you'd say any other role, but sorry. NA mids are quite worse than other servers. Including your zeds. And the fact still stands, the QSS doesn't' work vs Zed. And I still get downvoted for your mistake, lovely.

But hey, you still refuse to play Zed a little amount of 10 games to see why others complain about him. Wow, shocking.

Rock MDJun 19, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-19T15:56:53.300+0000)

and i was playing against a leblank smurf in euw, that's actually a challanger and was streaming on his smurf. While getting my smurf to g4 as well. still won.

I don't think "better Zeds than you'll ever see in your life" counts since, well you know, eu mid laners. half of your pro scene in murica is eu mid laners or koreans.

I'd get if you'd say any other role, but sorry. NA mids are quite worse than other servers. Including your zeds. And the fact still stands, the QSS doesn't' work vs Zed. And I still get downvoted for your mistake, lovely.

But hey, you still refuse to play Zed a little amount of 10 games to see why others complain about him. Wow, shocking.

Lemme see the clip of you beating the LB and proof of that being your account. You can op.gg me any time and see the game vs. the Zed. All I see when i look at your account is a match vs. bots and that's already a fantastic sign.
I'd wager Stylish is the best Zed player in the west. I've played vs. him a number of times. I still don't feel that Zed is particularly oppressive.
I pointed out the QSS was a mistake that I made due to tiredness and not paying attention to the post/champion I was writing about. Do you really want to die on that hill?
I try practice Zed in normals. The more I play him the more I realize his glaring flaws. The champion is very obviously not as strong as people make him out to be. He lacks the consistent pressure and wave control of other mids, and while he more killing power his kill pattern has so much more counterplay than most of the champions that also plague low elo.

tl;dr git gud

HopeStartsWithUJun 19, 20195 votes

Solid tips, well written but still downvoted. I have a bad feeling people are just here to cry rather than improve. Anyone who thinks Zed is broken is prob silver.

Checking OPs op.gg shows that he is indeed silver. What a freaking coincidence.

ModWulf HelhammerJun 19, 201914 votes

Literally the only thing that you said that is true is point 7.

Everything else is just so incredibly wrong I don't even know where to start with it.

Dope SoloJun 19, 20199 votes

Disagree. Normally to start you would begin by offering some data to support your asserted point - but you can't.

51.65% Win Rate

11.9% Pick Rate

42.1% Ban Rate

https://u.gg/lol/champions/zed/build

ModWulf HelhammerJun 19, 201910 votes

And that data proves what about your point exactly?

Not a single shred of what you said in the OP is supported from those stats. None.

Point 1: Yeah, fine, if you think it's worth it, although statistically, you're better off banning someone like Talon or Ahri, who have either about the same (or higher!) win rates then Zed, while having higher pick rates.

Point 2: Not a single point of that is correct. At all. I don't even get how you make such a leap.

Point 3: I'll just put this again:

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-19T02:27:40.060+0000) They don't.

What he's referring to is when he makes a post on gameplay that has the total content of "worth it", and it is removed by Volunteer Moderator Staff, NOT Riot, for low effort with a warning (and that warning given as a fact that someone who has been on the boards as long as him should know better then to post something like that on Gameplay)

Point 4: Again, not even true in the slightest. Want the easiest way to counterplay him? How about the free to 600g item that completely shuts him down in lane (the most important time for an assassin)? Or how about how you know the exact location he's going to show up after his ult animation, giving ample room to CC him and stop him in his tracks.

Point 5: Any evidence for that? Any at all? Anything that can be even remotely taken as objective input, rather then subjective complaining?

Point 6: ONCE AGAIN: Not. True. At. All. He's a goddamn ASSASSIN. If he can't escape, what the hell is the reason for even picking him? Not to mention that it's incredibly tame vs every other single real assassin in the game (and even some assassin-esque champs!)

And finally, we get to the only actually true independent point that you have said in this entire post:

Yes, 6 points (however made up and wrong they are) is certainly enough to not be considered low effort.

AMADEUSdotEXEJun 19, 20197 votes

Hi there! Mid player of 5 years! Here's where you're wrong.

Zeds Q had the original scaling on multiple shurkiens hit removed. His WQ combo has a total range of 1550. His Q alone has 900 range. (High CD compensation.) This alone will deal almost 40% if both shurikens hit. 60% with WQE. 2 shuriken to dodge that can possibly come from both directions.
Riot Buffed him 3-4 damn patches in a row. Meaning Zed now wins matchups he originally did not because of this when the buffs originally started. ex. had the advantage pre+ /last season.
His ult puts him behind you, and if you HAVE hard CC that with stun him in time you should be okay. ( has a bitch doing it. You are better off W and pray you dodge.)
You can spend 600g to buy and build Zhonyas on an AP mid or rush and have no mid game. Basically having to buy to stop him from instagibbing you may fuck you over if his team is mostly magic damage.
He is too safe. Not every assassin has an esacape!! (wall on cd) needs his E to escape assuming he didn't just walk up to you and ult. has THREE.
Basically every matchup is his opponent waiting for him to use his W and miss (most of it at least) for an all in. Poking when safe.

IP MasquerenaJun 19, 20194 votes

Due to him forcing the rush of Seeker's on mages, it's a win win because he doesn't have mana.

If you don't buy it, you die to him, if you do buy it, he can just push you in and you won't have mana soon enough.

Orianna is the only exception I found because her early mana costs are so manageable to the point of getting a 2nd Dorans fixes the problems.

Also, Zed can and will one shot you through Seeker's and sometimes Tabi by himself if his jungler ganks a few times. I've seen Zed's who I made 0-4 in lane do it through a stacked Seeker's after I got ganked a few times by their duo, even if not every gank was a success.

Lethality is flat arpen, but how much it removes is based on his level, if he gets ahead of you, it can remove a good amount.

IP MasquerenaJun 19, 20193 votes

Ahri doesn't have higher pick rates than Zed, except for Masters, but that place is shady anyway, I mean Akali has a 57% win rate there while her best win rate anywhere else is 47%, there's barely any difference between them in terms of win rate, except the fact that Zed is banned so much more, even in challenger.

Diamond (same order, win, pick, ban)

Ahri: 51.83%, 10.7%, 6.1% Zed: 51.91%, 11.3%, 34%

Masters

Ahri: 56.74%, 9.2%, 3.4% Zed: 50.07%, 10.1%, 18.9%

Grandmasters

Ahri: 52.35%, 8.6%, 2.9% Zed: 51.87%, 9.2%, 17.4%

Challenger

Ahri: 55.67%, 6.2%, 2.3% Zed: 55.07%, 9.1%, 9.5%

For how hard to play everyone cries he is, not having a negative win rate anywhere is a bit too strong imho.

TormentulaJun 19, 20197 votes

{quoted}

For how hard to play everyone cries he is, not having a negative win rate anywhere is a bit too strong imho.

Have to give credit that a lot of his playerbase actually is hard dedicated to zed. Nobody autofilled just randomly pops off with zed in challenger against a mid main. He's also way harder to pull off against players that know what grouping, punishing split pushing, and the general dos and donts of playing against an assassin are. The only real question is if he's too successful given the environment he's in, which may or may not be too high atm.

In comparison to say ahri, where a lot of challenger players who pick ahri aren't dedicate to her, she's just a safe pick in general that can at least live, exist, or land a charm or do the glacial build when auto filled. When her numbers are high, you can question whether or not she's too safe for just anybody to lock in during a given meta on top of what a peak ahri player can do.

IP MasquerenaJun 19, 20194 votes

Well, funny thing,

Zed's lowest win rate is in Bronze at 50.07%, that's the lowest win rate Zed has, and it's also the highest play rate at 16%.

His highest win rate and lowest play rate are in Challenger.

So yes, Zed is actually more successful in games where people group, punish splitpushing and the dos and don't of playing against an assassin.

But the thing is not that he's more successful there, but that his lowest win rate at that damn high playrate is 50%. Zed is actually at the moment a good "pick up and play" for the general player base, and most it's due to his passive.

HopeStartsWithUJun 19, 20195 votes

You forget that people in bronze can't play against most champions. They are straight up bad. Being succesful with "complex" champs is easier down there. Obviously it's also easier to fuck up with said champs. If you observe some Zed haters here on the boards you will realise that the majority is silver. An elo in which people hardly understands counterpicks/counterplay.

IP MasquerenaJun 19, 20193 votes

Not really. I made a thread couple days ago where I shared a lot of win rates and except Zed and Yasuo, every single one had a negative win rate in lower ranks, going up with ranks.

Yasuo had an U curve, high win rate in Iron, Bronze and Silver, going down to the negatives in Gold, Plat and Diamond, then starting to go back up.

Zed on the other hand is full on positive, so why is he the only exception.

Others I checked but not posted either still fall in the rule of low down and high up or had U curves like Yasuo, Zed is the only exception who has neither. He's good everywhere.

Heko The ManJun 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ahri doesn't have higher pick rates than Zed, except for Masters, but that place is shady anyway, I mean Akali has a 57% win rate there while her best win rate anywhere else is 47%, there's barely any difference between them in terms of win rate, except the fact that Zed is banned so much more, even in challenger.

Diamond (same order, win, pick, ban)

Ahri: 51.83%, 10.7%, 6.1% Zed: 51.91%, 11.3%, 34%

Masters

Ahri: 56.74%, 9.2%, 3.4% Zed: 50.07%, 10.1%, 18.9%

Grandmasters

Ahri: 52.35%, 8.6%, 2.9% Zed: 51.87%, 9.2%, 17.4%

Challenger

Ahri: 55.67%, 6.2%, 2.3% Zed: 55.07%, 9.1%, 9.5%

For how hard to play everyone cries he is, not having a negative win rate anywhere is a bit too strong imho.

It is because of electrocute.

ModAcademy KaynJun 19, 20197 votes

Not really, he's about the same amount of roaming potential of any assassin, though Talon straight up is the best. Assassin Creed his way errywhere.
Ryker already addressed this
There's plenty of counterplay to Zed, the normal kind such as dodging shurikans, the harder kind like hitting Zed the moment he pops out of his ult behind you, to counterbuilding, where you rush Seekers/Stopwatch/Zhoynas, etc. Late game, counterplay is to stay with your team and not be an alone carry, the same counterplay as any assassin. Hell, Zed even gives you a .5 warning for you to prepare when he ults you.
His range and damage on Q exists once every 22 seconds early game. Abuse that time while he's vulnerable.
Every assassin has escape capacity, Zed has no more than any other assassin. If you gank a Zed when he has his shadow up, that's on you, the guy's a sitting duck without it.
His best waveclear is locked behind his Shadow, otherwise he's no better waveclear than any normal assassin.
Aight.

BeastDaArvJun 19, 20196 votes

bruh ever heard of cc

r41p41Jun 19, 20196 votes

[deleted]

Dope SoloJun 19, 20192 votes

I've played between 3-4k normal games where I frequently encounter golds and the occasional plat, and play against the same smurfs as evwryine else. The number of ranked games I've played in comparison to that number is likely less than 10% of total games. Nice try though.

Not only that, but rank shaming aside who's to say that blanket banning Zed in all games isnt the best average choice for the average player? Zed is S+ tier mid for a long time, too long.

WahabiJun 19, 20191 votes

u have played 4k normal games and still didnt improve 1% ? interesting u had 140 games in silver and have 49% and u still argue with people who are probs higher then u

iDarkWindJun 19, 20196 votes

All of your arguments are quite terrible, but the one who stands the most out is definitely saying that Zed has no counterplay. Out of any assassin in the game I guarantee that Zed is the one who has the most counterplay. His abilities are very telegraphed, his instant snack back no longer exists, and Stopwatchs are a thing now. Plus if you want to add an exhaust on top of it you are free to go. Also that point you made that Riot is "defending Zed" by deleting posts is totally absurd - Riot after buffing Zed, decided to nerf him to a worst state than pre-buff, and they did it on the same patch they released his legendary skin.

I don't want to be rude, but you show zero knowledge of the actual game, especially when you say Zed is the most unfair champion out there. In a world where Tahm Kench, Akali, Irelia and etc exists, he will never be the most unfair.

Also looking at your profile stats (na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dope+solo) I don't know if Zed's the issue.

HP CrookshanksJun 19, 20195 votes

Why do they delete anti-Zed posts?

ModWulf HelhammerJun 19, 201915 votes

They don't.

What he's referring to is when he makes a post on gameplay that has the total content of "worth it", and it is removed by Volunteer Moderator Staff, NOT Riot, for low effort with a warning (and that warning given as a fact that someone who has been on the boards as long as him should know better then to post something like that on Gameplay)

Heko The ManJun 19, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-19T01:53:30.951+0000)

Worth it, meaning no other single ban has more capacity for making a match fair/playable.

Hecarim Kayn Mordekaiser Pyke

No other champ has the same capacity for roaming and wrecking an entire game all by itself.

Katarina Riven Pyke Twitch Hecarim

Riot deletes anti-Zed posts.

Counterplay in league exists, just not on Zed who's been welfare pumped time and again into some rioters faker wet dream.

item 3157 item 2424 summoner 3 Lissandra

His range + damage on Q is toxic and shouldn't exist.

TahmKench

His escape capacity is extremely toxic and shouldn't exist.

Katarina Leblanc Akali Pyke

His wave clear is extremely strong for ZERO mana.

Yasuo

Zed is often banned by both teams.

doubt it

No data is currently available for the number of games that were dodged after Zed picks.

9 points isn't low effort.

it is

The KombinatorJun 19, 20194 votes

I didn't found him that bad. There are several counterplay, and as support he can be reduced to 0.

Lulu ult+shield+poly makes him pretty much worthless.

Soraka silence aura makes him worthless.

Janna ult+shield counters whole combo.

Good alistar, blitz, tresh, and even leona can break his combo. Leona can even keep him in place for easy kill. Though these require some serious skill, and reflex to work.

Sure if he is super fed, then you can't do anything. But that's true to most champions. An ultrafed Morde currently able to destroy entire team 5v1. Something Zed can't, because of cooldowns.

ZardoJun 19, 20194 votes

Zed is one of the assassins with the most counterplay... He's never going to be able to delete you as fast as someone like rengar or be as safe as someone like leblanc or fizz.

FOR JUSTICEJun 19, 20193 votes

Riot deletes anti-Zed posts.

false, they only delete the rant-y ones, or ones where the OP just insults everyone and their grandma when they dont agree.

other then this, i guess the rest could be true. honestly though i just find him more annoying then actually broken. except

2. No other champ has the same capacity for roaming and wrecking an entire game all by itself.

to which pre nerf leblanc, and current talon say hi

hhaavviikkJun 19, 20193 votes

His escape capacity is only just below that if leblanc, and we all know how bloody difficult it is to catch leblanc

If a Zed goes in R > W or W>R without using W he has 2 places to blink to afterwards, he can blink to W, wait 1 second, blink to R, wait 1 second and then W is up again for a 3rd blink

Zed deals the most damage out of any assassin in the game while also have 2/3 means of escape

Busty DemonJun 19, 20193 votes

-If he misses his q and burns his w, he is pretty much dead pre-6

, After his r. Count 1, 2, 3 then press it (when he is out of u, timing is important . Gets them pissed) . The trick IS DON'T STAND STILL AFTER ZHONYA ENDS AND BE AWARE OF HIS SHADOWS. GG.

I only ban him because whenever i ping bot that he is roaming, they ignore me and then give him double kills. Or if the whole team decides to be squishy

FioraWillCarryJun 19, 20193 votes

All they have to do to nullify all that is pick Talon. Now you have a problem 100x worse than Zed could ever be.

Modl Ryden lJun 19, 20193 votes

So I guess that makes your pose 8 points?

9. No data is currently available for the number of games that were dodged after Zed picks.

Well yeah, there's literally no point into storing that kind of information on a database anywhere. As the reason for dodging a match could be anything and NOT just someone picking Zed. It would end up being wasted space.

La Belle SauvageJun 19, 20191 votes

I think you're wrong, it's exactly the data I'd want if I were analyzing and situation involving any champ.

I'm not sure if they do, but as an analysts, I know I'd welcome that sort of information.

Yung KingJun 19, 20193 votes

not sure why people dont cba, obvious you're either trolling or below gold player.

FSRERJun 19, 20192 votes

Good thing there are midlaners out there who ban Zed and not damned master Yi and such. It is a midlaners job to do such bans as is toplaners job to ban either Riven or Irelia

masterartkillerJun 19, 20192 votes

if you hate zed that much, play sylas easy game

J EevoJun 19, 20192 votes

Bad idea after sylas nerfs put him back in jail. Sylas now loses the overwhelming majority of games against zed

masterartkillerJun 20, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-06-19T09:51:04.844+0000)

Bad idea after sylas nerfs put him back in jail. Sylas now loses the overwhelming majority of games against zed

tbh, every game i play as sylas vs zed i never lose imo sylas is still really strong

Chem toxicityJun 19, 20192 votes

Would be amazing if we could fix shaco

Peel for my ADCJun 19, 20192 votes

I'm just not a fan of the new zed skin pay to win miniature shadows lmao

AmazoXJun 19, 20192 votes

Your opinion, IMO Tahm Kench is worth banning right now.

Friend Like MeJun 19, 20192 votes

My argument would be that zed is an assassin but many assassins have lost their early strengths or mobility via increasing cooldowns due to endless riot nerfs yet zed remains mostly untouched and the rest of the assassins are only viable to higher elo players/players that main assassins.

WahabiJun 19, 20192 votes

[deleted]

Dope SoloJun 19, 20191 votes

Just like the vast majority of people who play this game. Get a job kid.

BlåsigtJun 19, 20191 votes

Zed is an interesting assassin. Relative to his peers, his kills are very low risk. Then again, I do not find him too difficult to lane against

The thigh guyJun 19, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name= Blåsigt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EWRw90A9,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-19T02:22:48.525+0000)

Zed is an interesting assassin. Relative to his peers, his kills are very low risk. Then again, I do not find him too difficult to lane against

It isn’t laning against him that is the problem. It’s when he decides it’s time to roam, and the Adc gets instant killed with no real counterplay that he becomes a problem.