Anyone else think CC should be a triangle/tradeoff?

ModCaptainMårvelous··4 votes·383 views

As of late, CC has been kind of becoming shorter and shorter. Stuns, snares, silences, etc. have been reduced to 1-2 at best, same as knock-ups. However, knock-ups aren't reduced by tenacity so naturally, displacements will forever be better than hard CC. I'm not saying a ton of classes are getting merc treads or tenacity but it feels like all forms of CC are being reduced to either a knock-based or a snare. Anything else is just....worse.

My proposal is to make CC a sort of triangle.

http://i.imgur.com/0wBhLfe.png

#Strength of CC

These abilities would be the strongest in terms of completely stopping fights. Knock-based skills, stuns, etc would be the top-tier of these abilities. However, because of this, they'd be the shortest CC and easily beaten by cleanse. This would mean that knock-based skills would have to have some sort of susceptibility to cleanse/tenacity but, for the power they offer, I think it is fair.

#Duration

The longest lasting abilities. These would be snares, blinds, silences, slows, roots, etc. They impede your ability to fight but don't completely ruin your day. However, they're not strong (As you can still take actions) and they'd also be prey to being easy to cleanse and deal with. If you're hit by this ability, you're pretty screwed for a while.

#Ability to Counter

Poppy's R is the closest I can think of. It completely removes you from the game. You're hit with it, you're gone. You don't exist for a short time. Shaco's R has this property too. (You can dodge Karth ult if you're sneaky enough). However, it's short and it's just as detrimental as it is helpful. Considering you can't be hurt while this is going on.

The purpose of these three angles would be to set CC on a clear base. Strong CC is the best but it's easy to counter and it doesn't last long. Duration CC lasts the longest but it's not great and is easy to counter. Anti-counter CC is impossible to deal with but it can hurt and help while also being short.

#Why have this?

Because displacement CC is broken. The only CC that can compare to hooks, grabs, taunts, and charms is CC that is either applied so often that you're pretty much completely CC'd (Slows come to mind) or have such insane duration that they can compete based on duration alone (Hi Morgana snare. Hi old Fiddle Fear).

CC needs a rework. It needs clear strengths and weaknesses. "Just get a banshees" is not a valid excuse to deal with knock-ups and knock-backs. Adding an item that counters displacement would only result in an arms race and further power creep. CC, at its core, needs to be changed so that there is clear reason to pick certain champions with certain CC over others.

In closing, if you can't understand why displacement is insanely strong, look at some of the most routinely strong champions: Alistar Malphite Braum LeeSin Orianna Yasuo TahmKench Thresh Janna. If you can't see the pattern, all of these characters either have displacement spells or CC abilities that cannot be countered. Maybe package this CC rework with the tank rework when you get around to it.

I'd just like tenacity to matter and for cleanse to be useful outside of a Zed ult.

6 Comments

Nahui1 votes

I don't agree that lumping snares and roots with slows silences an blinds are appropriate. They are far more akin to stuns.

Yes, you can technically take some action, but they're almost as good as stuns. When lux snares you, you're as good as stunned. When Maokai roots you, you're as good as stunned. Sure if Lux has no HP then her snare might not be enough but for the most part, she stops you and their team gets you, or she herself. This is opposed to Teemo blinding you or Cho Gath silencing you. You're still free to run away.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Fair enough. It needs work (I'm no game designer nor balance expert) but I hope the main point made sense and was worth considering/discussing to you.

Erockandroll1 votes

Just the other aspect is that CC also needs to be balanced around other aspects of the champion. Certain champs are made to have high CC. (including many tanks and most supports.) And how the CC is applied is another thing to consider. Is it melee? is it ranged? or Do you charge into range to use it? And then is it a single target, or and AoE?

Over all, supports are generally going to have more CC, as it allows them to help the team, without being reliant on item stats. (with the possible exception of CDR) Initiation tanks should also have good CC tied to their initiation. (that means alistar and Malphite.) And then lastly, such a model like this, could remove CC designed to scale. (like a slow that strengthened as you build AP.) Something Lulu as to a certain extent, but I feel could be expanded upon.

One more thing actually. When you mention Strength of CC, You need to consider have and have nots. Say champion X has a stun that lasts a second. And lets say it was being used, mainly to peel off an enemy tank. Perhaps that duration isn't long enough because of Tendency coming from merc treds. But if we buff the duration to say, 1.5 seconds. it becomes problematic for squishies, who can't build merc treds. This is part of the reason why Displacement has become more popular, because you don't need to consider items when balancing them.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

In a perfect world, after a total rebalance of CC, classes would get tenacity items outside of merc treads to deal with CC heavy teams. In this case tenacity would be stronger because it reduces CC to a greater degree. Think bringing back zephyr, putting Moonfire on SR and having a tank item for tenacity. Boots could stay for bruisers? Maybe? Needs work but the idea would be that a CC rebalance also rebalances some of the CC cleansing/CC weakening items

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

Basing an ability off of a chart and not the kit would make so that only certain kits are good while the others are garbage.

You can't compare Malphite's ultimate to Udyr's stun directly. That would mean you would have to buff Udyr stun or weaken Malphite's ultimate. The kit's are completely different.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Less basing off a chart, more so giving some unification and clear strengths. Malph's ult is still the best for teamfighting, you could just sort of cleanse it and/or negate it rather than "Oops you were in 500 yards of Malphite up your entire team goes". Udyr's stun would just be slightly longer but reduced by tenacity to a greater degree.

Like I said in another post, still needs work, but it'd be a rebalancing. Some kits stronger, some kits weaker, all of them better tuned.

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