@Fizz Enthusiast: What is Riot's vision of an assassin?

TequilaZombie··18 votes·1,542 views

Just a quick question: What Riot believes assassins should be doing post 6.22?

Previously, assassins were supposed to get to a target, quickly take them out, and leave the fight. Some would give up the quick exit for other stuff, like dueling power and vision control Shaco, or for extra tankyness Rengar, or sometimes a semi global engage Nocturne. But nonetheless, they'd do one thing EASILY: kill their squishy target. This was obviously not a fun situation to be on the other side of (as you mentioned in your Clunkiness and Fun post), and changes to it were expected for a reasonably long time.

Right now, assassins seem to be in a weird conceptual spot. They are not supposed to be GRANTED the kill, even if they execute it properly, as enemies have a bigger windows for counterplaying them. In the late game (or in general team fights and coordinated skirmishes), this usually means that unless the support and tanks/peelers have wasted most, if not all, of their CDs, as well as the target having wasted their defensive options, the assassin will probably not get the kill or not get out of the fight alive. Sometimes they fail in both aspescts.

This would seem to lead to a more snowball oriented playstyle, specially with the changes to Zed and Rengar, who get more damage after getting kills, and Talon and Leblanc, who were given roaming tools. However, the Armor-Pen-into-Lethality changes, seem to indicate a more late game oriented approach, specially with Lethality being such a huge part of AD Assassins items.

Those 2 aspects, at least for me, seem to leave Assassins as a class without a clear indentity or goal, mostly due to how contraditory those two things are: late game they are easy to counter, but they only get the full power from their items in the late game.

So, to put it shortly: what are they supposed to be doing?

24 Comments

Shadòw14 votes

being useless.

i mean, before you at least had to react to apply your shields/heals or summoner 3.

but hey, you know the game is balanced when every class has more potential to instakill than the class that is supposed to do that.

WoonStruck10 votes

A melee champion that has less burst and dps than a marksman, apparently.

TequilaZombie3 votes

But hey, we have some nice moblity so we can get in range to be bursted!

AcidTheWarlock4 votes

I see it being something similar to, hear me out, Zed.

Mobility to escape and engage, but needing planning and skill to pull off. Your victim needs to feel outplayed, not statchecked.

Delays are natural, but they should blend with your patterns, and you should be able to snowball to the point where they aren't really there.

Zed's ult is delayed pretty well but if he executes his combo effectively, it doesn't ruin the flow and he can get away. If you take the proper precautions, like Zhonya's and grouping, it makes his life harder.

Assassins should also have options to get around some of the more standard approaches to stopping ganks such as vision control, like Duskblade's blackout, Talon's E, and Shaco's Q.

One thing that could be cool is some form of item allowing assassins stacking OOC MS and/or Lethality to ignore shields. Divers get CC and defenses, but assassins have a way out and a way to ignore support presence.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Maybe some item that does let them ignore part of a shield? Like, X% of damage is applied to health instead of shields? Like Phasic Rounds in good old Mass Effect 1?

AcidTheWarlock2 votes

Yeeeeeeaaaahhhhhhhh

Or maybe something like a short-duration damage boost against shields, but doesn't do much to champions.

Like shock weapons from Borderlands. Amazing against shields, meh against stuff with armor, and decent to unarmored targets.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

I can't even 100-0 people anymore with Zed even if I land the most perfect combo with ignite.

but caitlyn can animation cancel trap and land 3 headshot and 100-0 someone with ult in lane.

nm10102 votes

Tbh a lot of assassins start off early-mid game needing time to get a kill, but then their damage scalings get them to a point where they can ignore delays built into their kit. For example leblanc passive does a lot of damage and she needs it to all in early on, however 3 item+ q rq without passive does 1100+ damage. With e hitting the first part and thunderlords thats almost 1500 damage with any damage boosts or passive.

Fizz has the same thing with w bonus damage, later in the game ewq with lichbane is a fuck ton of damage and if you land ult first you kill 100%.

Edit: Here is a little something for you people that think I don't know what I'm talking about, q rq on ezreal through nami heal and an aa for thunderlords no passive proc (Yes that is aphro). Items are just morello and deathcap components, he had trinity manamune.

https://i.gyazo.com/2b2860b8caff1e005581e274c00a02c4.gif

Pommel Knight2 votes

Only if you have w stacked. Without it soraka out damages you.

nm10102 votes

No like I said late game most of the assassins outscale their timed damage part of their kit. Fizz for instance does about ~1600 damage lvl 16 with 400 ap minimum ult damage no w bonus and no lichbane proc. That is a pretty solid amount of damage

Pommel Knight2 votes

OK lets do the math then . You said 1600 dmg with no empowered w and 400 ap.

Q is 70 + 0.35% ap making it + 140 and 110 ad. Lets add litch bane into it, 0.5% ap = 200 and 70 base. Q combo total is 590.

W is 80 + 0.33% ap making it 212.

Last is e with 255 + 0.75% which is 555.

Total being 1357 with litch, or 1087 without.

This is all if they have 0 mr. If they have 50, then that's 33% less. Which would reduce the non litch dmg by 358.71. Total 728.29 dmg without litch. Nowhere close to your numbers.

nm10104 votes

minimum ult damage

You didn't factor in the ult silly, with ult your number comes up 1677 without lichbane.

And no I didnt factor in mr, nor did I factor in any damage amps from bounty hunter, assassin, thunderlords, etc because I was just giving you raw numbers to show that in the worst case scenario you can do PLENTY of damage to a carry.

Pommel Knight1 votes

With ult you would prock empovered w genius. And you are proving that an assassin can't deal any dmg with his full rotation if he doesn't get the ideal play. And no you can't count ult if you claim instant dmg. Even giving e dmg was a stretch.

E 1.5 s delay and r 2 sec delay after it hits.

Again no, you didn't subtract the 33% from his ult. 250 + 0.6% ap is 490. With resist it's 328.

Total being around 1060 or less.

nm10101 votes

If the target has been bleeding for at least 2 seconds, the damage dealt is tripled.

If I say all at once we aren't sitting around waiting the 2 seconds on r, we hit r, e, land and immediately wq (wqre would also be a decent example).

I am assuming you blow everything at once, you know like a simple rewq combo if they face checked a bush or something. You didn't subtract 33% damage on the 1087 you said, so I didn't either. Not that it really matters fizz typically has void and sorcs by 400 ap and that would reduce maw and base mr down to ~20ish. With thunderlords, lichbane, and damage amps you come off around 1600, probably a good bit higher but its around there.

Caitlyn at level 16 and maw would again probably die in reality, but using these low approximations she would have ~250ish hp left. Again this is pretty much the low end of damage you can do too.

Kinky Fizz2 votes

sry, but fizz doing e w q doesn't do a ton of damage later in the game you have to wait 2 sec to w and later in the game you get killed in theses 2 seconds the only time he can engage is when his ult is up,

nm10101 votes

I am not going to do damage amps calculations, but level 16 ewq with a lichbane and thunderlords proc at 400 ap does 1557 damage. Considering that is without his ult or empowered w he does fine, the problem is getting to that point with how weak he can be in lane.

Kinky Fizz1 votes

you can't kill anyone with this combo(unless ur fed and they'r low)

nm10101 votes

So you need your low cooldown ult to one shot someone (humoring you, with damage amps that 1557 [which again is your lowest damage combo] becomes closer to 1700 which can kill equal level squishies without hexdrinker)? Ult is up every 70 seconds without any cdr, people are dead for 40+ seconds at that point in the game, this means you should be able to have ult everytime they are alive.

HazyCloud72 votes

A clunky mess that gets cucked by exhaust, pretty much.

Katarina's rework was good. Her mobility is really crazy but her skill cap & floor went way up and she has more counterplay. Other than that the rest are pretty meh. LeBlanc is more or less a mage with mobility, and she's banned often because of her newfound waveclear + incredibly overtuned numbers. So you have a champion that is disgusting early/mid game and not really an assassin late game.

Then there's Fizz who for whatever reason riot expects to sit around for 2 seconds for his W active to any meaningful damage, and his ult which is just really frustrating for people to deal with because of the misleading visuals.

Unlucky472 votes

Not to mention how fighters over shadow assassins in every aspect

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

camille can do 1300-1500 true damage in one auto. potentially one shot adcs. literally a tank with an ap item or two one shots squishies faster than zed can. zed is one example. fizz is a clunky mess. talon just sucks in general. they removed his only hope of getting in. his E. to give him his new E which sucks dick in fights.

Project Sleeky2 votes

They're meant to have an hour-long tea party with the ADC and the Support before finally being allowed to do some damage only to get cockblocked by summoner 3

ZephyrDrake1 votes

they are meant to be weaker mages that take a lot longer to do anything... unless fed or overtuned as hell

abdelhamid91 votes

I mean, what did you expect? Zed was balanced according to the likes of scarra, people with +125 games had a 55 winrate on him, yet he still had a 65%ban ratio, any time an assassin rises to the top the boards are on fire and make 10 threads per day demanding nerfs (and still have the audacity to complain about how unfair is for a melee to lane against a ranged in toplane).

Ahri has a 53,57% winratio with a 13,2% playratio, ori 50,13% winratio and 13,32% playratio,lux with 51,86 winrate and a fucking 18%playrate yet everyone and his mother is complaining about yasuo who has a 49,56% winrate and 9,31% playrate.

Now im not saying yas is completely fine, i think his W duration is bullshit,however a melee carry needs some defensive clutch spell, so make the duration scale with points, or make it static 1.5 sec, what im saying tho is the mage bias in the boards is retarded, outside of syndra every mage can be broken as fuck and nobody will complain, mages outlane and outscale assassins, when zed could actually lane as well or better (even tho he got heavily outscaled) than mages everyone started to demand for nerfs, since riot catters for us silver scrubs, what do you expect? Im silver and i firmly believe the game should be balanced at the dia+ level, you cant balance around people who make ryze or prime azir look like underpowered champs lol. And to this day there is people who still demand ap items buffs LOL and nerfs to maw XDD

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