I get Bruisers were useless preseason but why are they warranted so much damage

Elohaven·Jun 9, 2018·9 votes·3,067 views

But does that really mean they have to be able to dish out so much damage?

Irelia Malphite (Classed a tank but it's very easy just to build one damage item to chunk teams) Garen Jax Camille

I feel like what's the purpose of a jungle if you can literally just walk up to teams, burst the squishies, die, and just call it a game. Conqueror gives true damage as well so it's much harder to itemize against compared to fevor and you also nerfed health item in season 7.

People complained about ADCs doing too many jobs but bruisers are doing an assassin's job while being tankier. Cool, if you're in range of them you should be punished, but why do they have to burst you from 100-0 to do their job?

Bruisers and tanks should engage, apply debuffs, and spread out melee DPS.

In my opinion, bruisers should be shredding tanks, ADCs shred bruisers, assassins ADCs, mages teamwide AoE/utility, and supports should support the team. Wouldn't that make a better game cycle than whoever can pop the squishies/ADC the fastest?

28 Comments

charge attackJun 9, 201811 votes

Riot always overdoes these changes.

Like when the “ADC in 2k17 meme” was dead in like patch 7.4, but they still shipped the crit item buffs in 7.9.

Bruisers have been good since release of conquerer/bone plating, but they kept getting buffed and their counters nerfed to the point where they’re S tier picks in mid/top/jungle and possibly bot lane.

xxSayJun 9, 20184 votes

It's incredible to me that people think what Riot did last patch made the game (and team compositions) more diverse. The fact that bruisers are showing up bot lane while crit adcs have no place in the game anymore (and yes they DON'T have a place, I'm sorry but if you say that crit adcs are scaling for late game and every single game ends before 25 minutes pass that means no late game = no scaling for crit adcs = dead champions). As an adc main I'd like to see caitlyn top, jinx mid or heck even Ashe jungle. If you provide me with that and give me the means that you gave bruisers in the game (where you literally only play ad bruisers or ad assassins in every role) I won't complain. Also, good luck picking caitlyn (or any crit adc) into bruisers in bot lane in the current state. Good luck.

OtterlyLostJun 9, 20183 votes

I've said all of this multiple times and everyone either ignored me or downvoted me. Bruisers are way over tunes and are literally playing in every role, bot lane carry included with these far too harsh nerfs to ADCs. I also mentioned how they have the biggest pool of items and the most variety in their build paths. No other class can use tank, bruiser, assassin, and ADC items.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20187 votes

{quoted}

I've said all of this multiple times and everyone either ignored me or downvoted me. Bruisers are way over tunes and are literally playing in every role, bot lane carry included with these far too harsh nerfs to ADCs. I also mentioned how they have the biggest pool of items and the most variety in their build paths. No other class can use tank, bruiser, assassin, and ADC items.

the nerfs to adc were appropriate.

and people arent just experimenting with fighters, but also with mages on bot lane. there are even a couple pro adc mains ive seen so far who welcome more bot lane diversity. it was honstly long overdue. there is no reason bot lane was literally owned by a single champion class.

look at the champion pool in top lane, mid lane and jungle, and tell me how only 1 single class being viable on bot lane makes sense.

as far as fighters go, next patch wil remove steraks and triforce synergy, and reintroduce atmas. this means midgame 2 item powerspikes of triforce bruisers are reduced and they become less bursty.

in return atmas and shojin are added and give them better sustained damage during the lategame.

OtterlyLostJun 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-06-09T14:13:29.400+0000)

the nerfs to adc were appropriate.

and people arent just experimenting with fighters, but also with mages on bot lane. there are even a couple pro adc mains ive seen so far who welcome more bot lane diversity. it was honstly long overdue. there is no reason bot lane was literally owned by a single champion class.

look at the champion pool in top lane, mid lane and jungle, and tell me how only 1 single class being viable on bot lane makes sense.

as far as fighters go, next patch wil remove steraks and triforce syngery, and reintroduce atmas. this means midgame 2 item powerspikes of triforce bruisers are reduced and they become less bursty.

in return atmas and shojin are added and give them better sustained damage during the lategame.

Except shojin is literally broken and everyone has been calling for it to not be in the game. And at atma was removed for a reason; bringing it back is a terrible idea.

As for the bot lane only being owned by ADCs, I always felt it made perfect sense considering 90% of the roster cant go anywhere else without the rest of the roles being upset. Crit ADCs specifically have only been balanced to let them go bot lane with a support; if other roles can bar their lanes to ADCs, why cant ADCs bar their lane to other roles? How is it fair for a single champion class to get completely neutered and made irrelevant just because a bunch of people want change just for the sake of change; not even because it's a good change or fixes some underlying issue. Just because they want DivErsIty. It looks really diverse seeing bruisers top, jungle, mid, and bot. Sure there are a small handful of mages going bot lane but its, by in large, yasuo and irelia. Such diversity, much wow.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Except shojin is literally broken and everyone has been calling for it to not be in the game. And at atma was removed for a reason; bringing it back is a terrible idea.

shojin was broken when the bonus was uncapped.

with the reduced effect to damage over time effects like poison and a limit to the flat damage reduction, its passive basically acts just like resistances.

and atmas was removed because it was considered trash tier and nobody bought it at the time of its removal.

Automated RivenJun 10, 20181 votes

Atmas was removed because they dumpsted it because it was hilariously broken when it was viable.

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-10T02:41:54.351+0000)

Atmas was removed because they dumpsted it because it was hilariously broken when it was viable.

it was op because it was dirt cheap as a 2200 gold item. not because of the mechanic of its passive. it was op because of the stats for its price granted a crazy midgame power spike when the item was rushed with something like a sunfire cape, and from there it kept on scaling into lategame.

pretty much the same reason crit items were op before their nerfs, because they were simply too cheap and these builds power spiked too early.

when riot nerfed atmas passive to 1,5%, it became a slot inefficient lategame item. imagine riot nerfed rod of ages to the point where it started out bad and doesnt scale enough to justify the item slot anymore.

the new atmas is going to cost 2900 gold and the passive ad bonus isnt frontloaded, but worth when it stacks up. i think thats a good compromise.

ive tested it on the pbe so far, and it only starts to feel effective when bought as third or fourth item.

its also worth to note that item 3078 + item 3053 synergy is getting removed, which is a huge deal for most fighters. you lose 100 to 140 damage on each sheen proc. this makes fighters less burstly and their damage less frontloaded. but atmas will improve their ability to take drawn out fights.

Automated RivenJun 10, 20181 votes

I agree that the new one will be fine. especially considering you die in 2 seconds and it takes 5 to stack. It seems like a win more item, not a decent item to begin with.

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-10T03:11:32.958+0000)

I agree that the new one will be fine. especially considering you die in 2 seconds and it takes 5 to stack. It seems like a win more item, not a decent item to begin with.

it really only becomes effective when you have at least 2 or 3 big health items to stack it with.

on garen id probably go item 3071 item 3742 item 3053 and then into atmas.

the trigage nerf is going to hurt, since im usually building triforce/steraks on garen currently when i want to carry. its the only way to really kill an enemy fast enough before he just diengages and starts kiting you.

it also makes you a threat when the spin is on cooldown.

my hope is that the tankier build will kindof offset that and allow me to survive longer in return to make use of atmas passive, and atmas ad bonus is large enough for me to be threatening with my spin on cooldown.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20184 votes

{quoted}

As for the bot lane only being owned by ADCs, I always felt it made perfect sense considering 90% of the roster cant go anywhere else without the rest of the roles being upset. Crit ADCs specifically have only been balanced to let them go bot lane with a support; if other roles can bar their lanes to ADCs, why cant ADCs bar their lane to other roles? How is it fair for a single champion class to get completely neutered and made irrelevant just because a bunch of people want change just for the sake of change; not even because it's a good change or fixes some underlying issue. Just because they want DivErsIty. It looks really diverse seeing bruisers top, jungle, mid, and bot. Sure there are a small handful of mages going bot lane but its, by in large, yasuo and irelia. Such diversity, much wow.

youre exaggerating. adc didnt get neutered. they just have to share their lane with other classes like we do regularly on mid and top lane.

fact is they were way overtuned before the recent crit nerfs and needed to get hit anyways.

the main reason people were pissed when adc showed up in other lanes was because they already owned bot lane.

OtterlyLostJun 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2018-06-09T14:52:52.674+0000)

youre exaggerating. adc didnt get neutered. they just have to share their lane with other classes like we do regularly on mid and top lane.

fact is they were way overtuned before the recent crit nerfs and needed to get hit anyways.

the main reason people were pissed when adc showed up in other lanes was because they already owned bot lane.

They were neutered. If they weren't then there wouldn't only be four ADCs with positive winrates who make up the brunt of the pick rate as well and none of which build crit. Crit ADCs were neutered by base stat nerfs, item cost nerfs, and changes to IE that make it better against tanks in a meta where no one picks tanks.

Lucian doesn't build crit and he has a 52% winrate and a pick rate of 20%. Ezreal doesn't build crit and has a whopping pick rate of 48%. Draven can build any AD items honestly and has the biggest winrate out all of them. His pickrate is low at least.

If you honestly believe that Crit ADCs are still enjoyable to play and feel relevant after these changes, you've obviously not been playing them.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20185 votes

{quoted}

They were neutered. If they weren't then there wouldn't only be four ADCs with positive winrates who make up the brunt of the pick rate

ok, first of all, this isnt anythig new to that role. for most of their existence there have only been two or three adc that were the top picks, while the rest was considered garbage. the "holy trinity of adc" has nothing to do with the overall strength of marksmen.

second, as long as there are still 2 adc played on bot lane in the overwhelming majority of games, adc winrates only tell you how they are balanced towards each other. one adc always has to win and one always has to lose each game. if lucian has a 52% winrate, then hes probably shitting on all the other adc in lane.

you think a 2% difference in winrate is a problem? mid and top lane champion winrates often range from 44% to 56%.

so far bot lane bruisers and mages are still a rare exception and people experimenting with the role.

you have to get used to the fact that crit marksmen never deserved to have the 2 item power spike that they had for over a year. crit builds are lategame scaling builds. if you want to have a strong lategame, you have to accept that your early game is shit and you have to adjust your playstile.

youre basically like veigar now. you have a shit early game, ok midgame and a godlike lategame.

ModWulf HelhammerJun 9, 20184 votes

There’s a pretty big difference between “3 or 4 ADCs are the best right now with majority of them about even below them” and “3 or 4 ADCs are viable now, with all the rest of them being trash”

And as for your whole “two ADCs are played every game” spiel, how do you explain the majority of them having bad win rates?

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=0004000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-09T15:32:29.295+0000)

There’s a pretty big difference between “3 or 4 ADCs are the best right now with majority of them about even below them” and “3 or 4 ADCs are viable now, with all the rest of them being trash”

And as for your whole “two ADCs are played every game” spiel, how do you explain the majority of them having bad win rates?

the majority are having bad winrates because theyre beaten by the two "only viable" adc who have good winrates.

the entire class had been overtuned, because riot balanced lategame adc who went for crit builds to be able to keep up in power spikes with early game adc like Lucian Draven lethality MissFortune etc.

this threw the whole game balance out of whack. crit adc had no business scaling as fast as lethality adc. theyre lategame champions. period.

either they get their lategame neutered and are allowed to scale faster into midgame, or they have to deal with the current power curve of weak early, ok mid, and strong late. there is no reason they get it all.

those crit item buffs in season 7 balanced crit and lethality adc kindof against each other, but overtuned the fuck out of them compared to the entire rest of the game.

OtterlyLostJun 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=00040000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-09T15:33:46.143+0000)

the majority are having bad winrates because theyre beaten by the two "only viable" adc who have good winrates.

the entire class had been overtuned, because riot balanced lategame adc who went for crit builds to be able to keep up in power spikes with early game adc like lethality etc.

this threw the whole game balance out of whack. crit adc had no business scaling as fast as lethality adc. theyre lategame champions. period.

either they get their lategame neutered and are allowed to scale faster into midgame, or they have to deal with the current power curve of weak early, ok mid, and strong late. there is no reason they get it all.

those crit item buffs in season 7 balanced crit and lethality adc kindof against each other, but overtuned the fuck out of them compared to the entire rest of the game.

They made them spike earlier because they were dead set on shortening game lengths. ADCs before wouldn't spike before 30 minutes. Games were ending at 25. That's why they felt shit in 2017. Now we're back to that. How about riot stops making the game end in 25 minutes instead of destroying an entire class. And how about they push back some of these bruiser's powerspikes? Jax and irelia both are intended as "lategame" carries but they only need one item to start wrecking face. Where is the neutering of them?

ElohavenJun 10, 20181 votes

Sam's statement was about Season 8 though. I don't see why you introduced Season 7 when the issue is with the Season 8 changes. It's a completely different context

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Sam's statement was about Season 8 though. I don't see why you introduced Season 7 when the issue is with the Season 8 changes. It's a completely different context

because the current season 8 changes are a revert to the state of adc before the crit buffs in season 7? like the way they were from season 1 to season 7?

the state of crit adc in the past year shouldnt be regarded as a baseline of how powerful they should be, but rather a phase in which their power curves were completely out of whack. they were not fine, and not balanced. they were way overtuned and had too much game impact during that time.

ElohavenJun 10, 20182 votes

because the current season 8 changes are a revert to the state of adc before the crit buffs in season 7? like the way they were from season 1 to season 7?

The issue is that the goal was to revert ADCs to that state but Runes Reforged and other changes to the game have caused power curves for every one to be out of whack. Hence you have bruisers/toplaners making half of the ADC roster obsolete.

Rift Herald, weaker towers were not part of the ADC world before the crit buff.

I also like to say that your statement of Season 1 to Season 7 threatens your own argument because the game has had large period of differences, buffs, and issues throughout those seasons which would easily excuse for an ADC buff such as the absurd strength of assassins or the ridiculous damage outputs at season 3 to 5 which would be considered broken today.

Let's keep the topic on Season 7 (Crit buffed), Season 7 (Pre-buff), and Season 8 as those are better references to the League we currently play.

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The issue is that the goal was to revert ADCs to that state but Runes Reforged and other changes to the game have caused power curves for every one to be out of whack. Hence you have bruisers/toplaners making half of the ADC roster obsolete.

ok, this is complete bullshit.

people are experimenting with fighters and mages on bot lane. but marksmen being non mandatory doesnt make them obsolete.

the effects of mages and fighters in bot lane havent even fully manifested yet. theyre still experimental. nothing more. people are just testing what can work and what doesnt. there is absolutely no statistical evidence that marksmen are being made obsolete by bruisers and mages.

the current image looks more like crit marksmen are getting shit on and pushed out by other marksmen in lane.

and even if they work, its not an accident that they can be played there. its intentional.

its been one patch so far. one. marksmen still havent fully learned to adjust their build pathes to the changes. theyre still new to being confronted with non marksmen in their lane and have to take time to learn the matchups.

what youre interpreting as marksmen being absolutely useless right now is in reality nothing more than experiments of players to see if other stuff on bot lane can work.

a large meta shift like this is going to take time to fully understand whats the result of the strength of individual champions, and whats the result of players still learning to adapt to these changes.

the first thing they should do, if anything, is look into increasing game times, and decrease general snowballing. they shouldnt even touch adc, their items or bot lane until then.

ElohavenJun 10, 20181 votes

How does me talking about toplaners/bruisers carrying games in toplane have to do with mages/bruisers in botlane?

You complain I'm speaking bullshit but don't even try to understand my message. I haven't even touched diversity in botlane as an issue.

Anyways, it is true that crit ADCs right now are mostly useless since games don't get extended long enough for them to have an impact.

what youre interpreting as marksmen being absolutely useless right now is in reality nothing more than experiments of players to see if other stuff on bot lane can work.

a large meta shift like this is going to take time to fully understand whats the result of the strength of individual champions, and whats the result of players still learning to adapt to these changes.

It's really easy to see what works/doesn't. This isn't that big of a meta shift you're making it out to be considering prior to this patch Riot has pushed out content for bruisers/assassins constantly.

For example, people instantly know with the changes Lucian with ER+BC+BORK will become a meta combo and it is. Vayne is BORK+Guinsoos+PD. Kai'Sa is Guinsoos+AP etc.

What you'll notice is that crit ADCs literally have no other options in their builds because they're centered around it (Xayah, Caitlyn, Jinx).

the first thing they should do, if anything, is look into increasing game times, and decrease snowballing. they shouldnt even touch adc, their items or bot lane until then.

Agreed - but they need to decrease damage across the board with other classes too then which is my OP.

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How does me talking about toplaners/bruisers carrying games in toplane have to do with mages/bruisers in botlane?

You complain I'm speaking bullshit but don't even try to understand my message. I haven't even touched diversity in botlane as an issue.

Anyways, it is true that crit ADCs right now are mostly useless since games don't get extended long enough for them to have an impact.

It's really easy to see what works/doesn't. This isn't that big of a meta shift you're making it out to be considering prior to this patch Riot has pushed out content for bruisers/assassins constantly.

For example, people instantly know with the changes Lucian with ER+BC+BORK will become a meta combo and it is. Vayne is BORK+Guinsoos+PD. Kai'Sa is Guinsoos+AP etc.

What you'll notice is that crit ADCs literally have no other options in their builds because they're centered around it (Xayah, Caitlyn, Jinx).

Agreed - but they need to decrease damage across the board with other classes too then which is my OP.

but thats exactly what theyre doing.

the trigage nerf combined with atmas release is meant to push fighters into sustained damage and make them less bursty.

item 3078 without the steraks synergy doesnt scale up as hard anymore. the two item power spike is pushed back to like third or fourth item.

someone like Irelia loses 100 damage on each sheen proc. thats a lot of damage shes going to be not dealing upfront in the first 6 seconds of a fight anymore.

if she triggered it off cooldown, she would deal 400 less damage in that timeframe.

atmas passive isnt frontloaded but takes 5 seconds to build up for fighters to start dealing significant damage. bruisers should be capable of carrying from top lane though. just like marksmen theyre just a different form of carry with different advantages.

Automated RivenJun 10, 20181 votes

Because if ezreal kaisa have a 54% winrate with a 30% pickrate each. That covers every other pick with the 4% winrates that are negative.

OtterlyLostJun 9, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EURztLeu,comment-id=000400000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-09T15:23:22.907+0000)

ok, first of all, this isnt anythig new to that role. for most of their existence there have only been two or three adc that were the top picks, while the rest was considered garbage. the "holy trinity of adc" has nothing to do with the overall strength of marksmen.

second, as long as there are still 2 adc played on bot lane in the overwhelming majority of games, adc winrates only tell you how they are balanced towards each other. one adc always has to win and one always has to lose each game. if lucian has a 52% winrate, then hes probably shitting on all the other adc in lane.

you think a 2% difference in winrate is a problem? mid and top lane champion winrates often range from 44% to 56%.

so far bot lane bruisers and mages are still a rare exception and people experimenting with the role.

you have to get used to the fact that crit marksmen never deserved to have the 2 item power spike that they had for over a year. crit builds are lategame scaling builds. if you want to have a strong lategame, you have to accept that your early game is shit and you have to adjust your playstile.

youre basically like veigar now. you have a shit early game, ok midgame and a godlike lategame.

Before this patch there were very few adcs who had a sub 50% wr and you never felt like if you picked one of them, you were straight hinting. You could play on hit varus one game and then swap to kog the next and then play cait in the next one and then the next one could be draven, ezreal, xayah, tristana... they all felt good and viable to play. Now your options are learn drave or play ezreal or lucian. Theres no point to playing anyone else.

And honestly, I wouldn't care about "diversifying" bot as long as it didn't force the champs I want to play completely out of the game. I dont want to learn yasuo; I have standards.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20182 votes

most of them, yes.

it feels like the only way to make yourself relevant is often to flash on certain champions and 100 to 0 them before they can 100 to 0 you.

mostly adc (lucian is particularly crazy this patch) and certain mages like brand.

AirKingNeoJun 9, 20182 votes

Garen? What?

NyarlathοtepJun 9, 20181 votes

Bruisers and tanks should engage, apply debuffs, and spread out melee DPS.

No? I mean yes tanks should engage and apply debuffs. Fighters/bruisers are supposed to deal damage while being able to shrug off some damage.

In my opinion, bruisers should be shredding tanks, ADCs shred bruisers, assassins ADCs, mages teamwide AoE/utility, and supports should support the team.

LOL. Do you honestly believe riot has the capacity do such a big rework? Riot cant diversify mage's item.