Why People Hate ADCs (Wall of Text Incoming)

The Yetii Rider··16 votes·2,605 views

So I was reading a thread the other day about buffing Thornmail and someone said "ADCs are so weak right now, don't buff Thornmail/nerf lifesteal. Why does everyone hate ADCs so much?" And that got me thinking. And the reason people hate ADCs...well, it's complicated. So I decided to spell it out entirely.

ADCs Have Reliable, Inconsistent Damage We have seen a lot of balance changes recently. Champions like Rengar Ryze Fiora Veigar losing their point and click abilities, and Riot stated when they changed Veigar "We want him to keep his ability to burst people down, so instead of nerfing his damage, we're nerfing the reliability of his ability".

And that's a code word that Riot uses, very rarely, but it's closely linked with everyone else's favorite code word: Counterplay. Riot puts so much emphasis on mechanical skill over strategic effort, wanting matchups to be fair even if someone counterpicked the other player, reducing the efficacy of snowballing and making new kits that are completely inconsistent in their damage (Sion Gnar ). There are entire champions who have to use skill to make their damage work (Ezreal Lux Velkoz Ziggs ), but not ADCs.

ADCs get to point, and they get to click. Reliable damage, and that is their core thematic. You cannot counterplay ADCs, you can only counter build them. You can only counterpick them by choosing champions that can reach and CC them. If you went top lane and first picked Malphite, well, congratulations! You can mess up that Vayne once every ultimate, but otherwise you stay away or you get kited and there's nothing you can do to avoid her damage.

The other problem is that ADCs have inconsistent damage. Their damage is entirely based on pseudo RNG. This leads to some potential frustrations for both the team, and the ADC himself. The ADC has an Infinity Edge and a Zeal, and watches the enemy Rengar walking away after killing the support with half health left. The ADC can stay under tower where it's safe or take a risk and get a kill. Rengar has high burst, so the ADC can only get off three autos before he kills her, but if any one of those three autos is a crit, Rengar will die first. And with 30% crit chance, a 1 in 3 crit seems likely. So the ADC chases after Rengar, autos once twice, three times as Rengar turns and obliterates, and dies. And everyone else thinks the ADC was an idiot for going in, while only the ADC knows that they missed every crit because the rest of the team wasn't watching for crit animations.

The ADC role is Designed to Promote Toxicity You are playing a champion who can only build damage, who is naturally squishy, who has low movement speed in a world of three gap closers per champion, but who needs to get kills in order to get effective. So you pair up with a support. You play aggressive in lane, because ADC items are so expensive that farming is rarely going to get you enough power before the mid game. You rely on your support to both secure you kills, provide vision for you, and peel for you if someone turns on you. And all of that is because you feel that you cannot rush a Banshee's Veil.

I've always found this odd. ADCs are supposed to have terrible mid games and excellent late games, so you would think the ADC would be content to rush a defensive item in the early game to make sure they don't feed in the mid game while they wait for their late game power spike. So why don't they? Well, it comes down to risk vs reward. Kills give a lot more gold than farming does, and if a big team fight breaks out in the mid game, the Varus with the Banshee's Veil won't feed, but the Draven with the Bloodthirster may pick up three kills (or he may die instantly). The risk is really high, but the reward is just so damn high as well that everyone takes that risk. Everyone rushes Infinity Edge even though it doesn't give them any defensive stats like BT and its damage is inconsistent AND it's the most expensive item they could have built, solely because there is a possibility that doing so will speed up their build and let them get their next item maybe a full two minutes faster than if they just sat back and farmed.

And then, when that risk doesn't pan out, when you don't get enough peel or someone else takes the kill or you get picked out before a fight, you rage. Because you took this risk and you expect your team to back it up, and you feel like there is an understanding that you bring all this power to team fights but it is everyone else's job to make sure you can deliver that damage.

That is why ADC players rage at everything. No vision, no ganks, no peel, report my support, it's because the role is designed to be team-reliant in a game where individual skill is so highly valued.

The ADC Has all the Tools to Outplay You, But Your Tools to Outplay Them are Champion-Specific Man do I hate this. The mechanic of range and of kiting exist in every ADC kit, no matter who they are. That is the nature of range itself. You can auto, you can turn and move, you can auto some more. You can bait, you can get peeled, you can crit and lifesteal and poke and keep yourself up at all times, and based on your skill, you can easily win the fight.

Melee champions do not have this mechanic. They have enough innate armor and health to survive some poke and some kiting, but their ability to close that gap relies entirely on their itemization or their champion abilities.

Back in S3, Randuin's Omen was the king of anti-kiting, because it automatically reduced the movement speed of anyone attacking you. But that was removed, and that's not even the problem. The problem is that range is all a champion needs to kite you, but in order to resist that kite, you need to get into range somehow. With a champion specific gap closer like Jax's Leap Strike or Malphite's Unstoppable Force, or with an item like Righteous Glory or Dead Man's Plate.

But the ADC is supposed to be the item reliant role. The ADC is supposed to be the one with the terrible mid game and the fantastic late game. Why do the melee champions have to spend gold and an item slot to be able to beat kiting, when ADCs can kite from level 1 with no items?

The solution here is to change the mechanics of melee attacks themselves. Give all melee champions a small gap closer/range on enemy champions with their autos, similar to Udyr's Bear Form auto. It doesn't have to be much, but it will definitely give melee champions a way to stick to ranged targets more easily, because getting into that range should be the hard part, not sticking to the enemy once you've gotten there.

ADCs Buy Blue Trinkets Wow, wow, fuck the pros. Okay, blue trinkets only work if the rest of your team has fully upgraded trinkets, sweepers, and a Sightstone. In other words, it only works if you are in a 5 man team with clear communication. ADCs complain about vision like its not their job and then buy blue trinkets because they need to be able to see into a brush on demand because they don't have any skill shots and need to keep autoing. No, it doesn't work like that. If we're in solo queue, you are supposed to provide vision like everyone else. Get a yellow trinket, upgrade it at level 9, and place your own wards instead of bitching about no one else warding after you get caught out for the seventh time.

46 Comments

Penns8 votes

I dont always hate ADCs, but when I do theres a Vayne on the enemy team. summoner 6

SlaktarTasken4 votes

I'm an ADC/Top main and I fully agree with this and OP.

Alot of ADC mains are crying about ADC's being to weak, nothing could ever be further from the truth as while it is possible to win a game without an adc, it's hardly ideal, there is a reason why ADC's have more or less been mandatory on pretty much every team since season 1, as ADC's are the major factor in teamfights, keep urs alive and kill the opposing ADC and u will almost surely win, fail to do so and you will almost surely lose.

That being said, I still feel ADC's have as we've always had, a huge impact, and aren't in any need of any "class" buff.

Just because one or two ADC's are problematic doesn't mean the class needs a buff as a whole, we're not intended to run around assassinating or dueling any and every champ, it just doesn't make sense considering the impact we have on teamfights, that is exacly why I can't stand Vayne, because she breaks all those rules.

Also, I can admit to forgetting to upgrade my trinket sometimes, but that's not becuase I play adc, I even do so when playing other roles, however in my defence, I ward actively, if I feel safe to place a ward (knowing where the champs that are an immediate threat to me are) I will do so (won't risk getting gimped to place a ward, sry).

Edit: I also primarly use the yellow trinket as permanent vision control is simply better than a single, short and small burst of vision imo, but to each his own I guess, also, facechecking is what I have my skills and tankier teammates for ^^.

Sire Hippington6 votes

You nailed it, couldn't have said it any better. In a game which has counterplay high in it's design-philosophy, it's od that the preimary dmage source of the highest dps class is point n click. It's also odd that in a else very skillbased and competetive game, the main dps is highly impacted by pseudo rng. The heavy initate advantage off beeing ranged comneing on top, though it would be ok if all melees had their ways to properly deal with that advantage...

Earl Eulrich3 votes

quite the nice analysis - i really hope they at least fix the issue of prng this pre-season. If everyone would have a fair guess on how much dmg they can expect in a trade or an all-in a lot of frustration would chease to exist, it also would solidify adcs as consistent-dmg (opposite to the 2-3crit-assassination they currently also offer).

Draven Always3 votes

I get that adc mains can be toxic and salty, but not every one is like that. Some Adc mains are just nice people. I do rage from time to time, but I don't blame it on my team. I just say shit like thats bullshit, when my autos disappear. If anything, my team blames me if I am not doing too well. When I play adc, I see myself as a carry, someone who has the potential to destroy the enemy damage very quickly. However, if I am not doing so well, I try to focus on making plays so the "other carry" (which there should be 2 carries at all times) can carry. I don't see myself as toxic, and I have only gotten banned one time about a year and a half ago for being unreasonably salty, and I haven't been banned since.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Draven Always,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-09-15T15:48:59.465+0000)

I get that adc mains can be toxic and salty, but not every one is like that. Some Adc mains are just nice people. I do rage from time to time, but I don't blame it on my team. I just say shit like thats bullshit, when my autos disappear. If anything, my team blames me if I am not doing too well. When I play adc, I see myself as a carry, someone who has the potential to destroy the enemy damage very quickly. However, if I am not doing so well, I try to focus on making plays so the "other carry" (which there should be 2 carries at all times) can carry. I don't see myself as toxic, and I have only gotten banned one time about a year and a half ago for being unreasonably salty, and I haven't been banned since.

Your opinions are all valid, but this post is about the general opinion of players. Not every ADC main is a Rager, but a group of people will always be judged by others based on the actions taken by their worst members. That is human nature, and the proper way to address it is to fix the role so it is less frustrating for both the player and his enemies.

Cowgirl Ed3 votes

The ADC Has all the Tools to Outplay You, But Your Tools to Outplay Them are Champion-Specific

+1 here

Chuck Charles2 votes

this is wrong on so many levels imo. people don't hate ADCs because of their reliable damage. they take forever to scale where they can take you on singlehandedly unless they got super fed super early. EVERYTHING in this game can take out an adc pretty easily. the only exception is honestly vayne who will just kite you with true dmg into oblivion.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

For those who would like to do math or read numbers, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3aVQgeER-thornmail-went-from-a-situational-item-to-a-trap-item?comment=0001000100000000

For those who don't, to sum up, in the past season all 3 core anti-adc items were nerfed; -Frozen heart's attack speed aura was lowered from 20% -> 15% though it's cost was lowered from 2750 ->2600. -Randuin's omen's armor was dropped from 80 -> 60, and lost it's movement speed penalty to auto-attackers which was only a 10% slow, though it got a -10% critical damage passive, it's negligible at best. -Thornmail's reflection damage was reduced from 20% -> 15% of auto-attacks (but now +25% of bonus armor), as well as it's cost increasing 200 gold.

Not to mention towers got nerfed repeatedly this season, lowering their max health and damage; and a bunch of high mobility champions were released, which explains being tower-dived within the first 5 minutes of every game.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-10-22T17:37:09.774+0000)

For those who would like to do math or read numbers, http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/3aVQgeER-thornmail-went-from-a-situational-item-to-a-trap-item?comment=0001000100000000

For those who don't, to sum up, in the past season all 3 core anti-adc items were nerfed; -Frozen heart's attack speed aura was lowered from 20% -> 15% though it's cost was lowered from 2750 ->2600. -Randuin's omen's armor was dropped from 80 -> 60, and lost it's movement speed penalty to auto-attackers which was only a 10% slow, though it got a -10% critical damage passive, it's negligible at best. -Thornmail's reflection damage was reduced from 20% -> 15% of auto-attacks (but now +25% of bonus armor), as well as it's cost increasing 200 gold.

Not to mention towers got nerfed repeatedly this season, lowering their max health and damage; and a bunch of high mobility champions were released, which explains being tower-dived within the first 5 minutes of every game.

Randuin's Omen also lost 100 Health.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Ah thanks, I thought it was higher, but I wasn't sure if it was 450 or 500, which is why I left out that detail.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

people who downvoted you did not read for sure. ADC don't need items to be usefull, ADC+sup can win against every match up except double dash bruisers

disregardable1 votes

You've clearly never had the misfortune of playing against Lissandra bot.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-15T14:26:55.899+0000)

You've clearly never had the misfortune of playing against Lissandra bot.

never, in this game there is always one sup and one adc

disregardable1 votes

I see one about once every 60 games or so? Not very often, but I lose every time.

Smefanye1 votes

It's true that adc's damage is largely point and click and the only real counterplay to them is to jump on them and force them away, but I think that's why the highest range we ever see on ad carries is around 700+, and that's only jinx, tristana late game and kog with his w on. Most mages, assassins and bruisers have ways to close the gap if an ad gets in range to auto, but of course if the ad flashes or has a way to jump away it's an issue. Crit I agree something needs to be done with as it has the same issue dodge had way back when, rng influencing a duel or teamfight way too much. I feel like the idea of ad carries being strong late and bruisers/tanks being strong early and mid is there with how much cheaper most bruiser/tank items are, but again it's not just the ad, if mid is fed as hell unless the ad is super behind you can't ignore either of them, so it's implementations a bit wonky. I think you said it perfectly when you said "adc's have reliable, inconsistent damage" because they're meant to be the sustained damage in a fight and most of their damage is point and click, but they're so heavily dependent on items, crit, lifesteal and their teammates for the most part that two ad carries with the same build can have hugely different results. I'm interested to see what they'll do with adc's after worlds since right now the role just feels really unfulfilling imo

Robbit Mang1 votes

I have to disagree with you on a few points here. The reason I think most ad mains are toxic is simple because almost every single melee champ has an unavoidable gap closer that the ad has to rely on someone else to help with. Examples who easily destroy ad carries would be Yi, rengars ult leap, Zeds shadow+ultimate, udyrs retarded bear stance, shacos low cooldown invis that has a blink, Rivens 4 dashes, nasus 95% 5 sec slow, Darius pull, garen and shyvana movespeed boost, blitz pull, thresh hook, talons blink, kats shunpo, Shens taunt, rammus ball, jarvans e-q, jax leap, xin charge, ekko and his slows for days. I could go on, but all of these things will get any solo quing adc main to rage due to dying in this new bruiser meta where thy get Bork and devourer and can 4 hit kill an ad carry.

Smefanye1 votes

Yah playing ad carry in this current meta is very...bleh unless you're a self-sufficient ad carry. I get that they added these items and changes so melee's couldn't be kited forever but ad carries didn't get compensation as well so they're in a weird spot atm.

Robbit Mang1 votes

This is really why vayne and Tristana and jinx are the best ad carries as of now, all have self peel tools and mobility to deal with the horrible things sated brought to league, along with juggernauts. The recent thorn mail nerf in late game has really helped vayne out too

SlaktarTasken1 votes

No we're not, ADC's are supposed to be dependant on their team for survival and damage output. The fact that pretty much only Vayne can break those rules and overshadow all other ADC's doesn't mean that ADC's are weak as a whole. Given your team peels for you and you position well, and outplay your lane opponent, you are practically guaranteed to win the game given you don't throw, ADC's are still VERY strong and being played as intended. This coming from an ADC main.

Smefanye1 votes

I understand that we're supposed the be dependent on the team, a la glass cannon, and ADC's regardless of their state will always be needed; the issue is that the ADC role right now, at least for me, feels very stale and is difficult to push advantages as well as I can with other roles. I'll be the first to admit that I suck with ADC, positioning, kiting, attack move clicking, etc. but it never feels as satisfying as it does with other roles because almost every game as any ADC is largely the same. Also, this is soloq we're talking about, you have to expect that nobody on your team (except the support and sometimes not even then) will peel for you lol.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robbit Mang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-15T14:49:05.564+0000)

I have to disagree with you on a few points here. The reason I think most ad mains are toxic is simple because almost every single melee champ has an unavoidable gap closer that the ad has to rely on someone else to help with. Examples who easily destroy ad carries would be Yi, rengars ult leap, Zeds shadow+ultimate, udyrs retarded bear stance, shacos low cooldown invis that has a blink, Rivens 4 dashes, nasus 95% 5 sec slow, Darius pull, garen and shyvana movespeed boost, blitz pull, thresh hook, talons blink, kats shunpo, Shens taunt, rammus ball, jarvans e-q, jax leap, xin charge, ekko and his slows for days. I could go on, but all of these things will get any solo quing adc main to rage due to dying in this new bruiser meta where thy get Bork and devourer and can 4 hit kill an ad carry.

You are correct, but other players have to deal with this as well. The reason they don't rage when say a Sona gets insta-glibbed by Kat is because raging doesn't help them win.

If I'm not ADC and I get bursted down, I immediately start warding up, grab a defensive item to counter the champion (Zhonya's, Athene's, Banshee, SV, Locket, Dead Man's Plate).

ADCs don't have the option of deviating from their build, or at least the players don't feel like they have the option. So they rage instead.

Robbit Mang2 votes

{quoted}

You are correct, but other players have to deal with this as well. The reason they don't rage when say a Sona gets insta-glibbed by Kat is because raging doesn't help them win.

If I'm not ADC and I get bursted down, I immediately start warding up, grab a defensive item to counter the champion (Zhonya's, Athene's, Banshee, SV, Locket, Dead Man's Plate).

ADCs don't have the option of deviating from their build, or at least the players don't feel like they have the option. So they rage instead.

Ad champs really can't afford more than one defensive option and that 9/10 times will be quicksilver sash as it builds into one of two offensive/defensive items (the other being maw of malmortius) an has the best active an item can get. AD items in general lack a lot of utility and purpose and IMO need to be redone.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Robbit Mang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2015-09-15T15:56:25.858+0000)

Ad champs really can't afford more than one defensive option and that 9/10 times will be quicksilver sash as it builds into one of two offensive/defensive items (the other being maw of malmortius) an has the best active an item can get. AD items in general lack a lot of utility and purpose and IMO need to be redone.

I agree entirely! Simply adding some more useful defensive options to carries and removing some of their dependence on multiplicative scaling (so they don't need as many items to be useful) would reduce a lot of the frustration for the ADC player by giving them the same options to respond to a fed enemy, rather than their current option of build more AD and hope for better peel from team mates.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I agree entirely! Simply adding some more useful defensive options to carries and removing some of their dependence on multiplicative scaling (so they don't need as many items to be useful) would reduce a lot of the frustration for the ADC player by giving them the same options to respond to a fed enemy, rather than their current option of build more AD and hope for better peel from team mates.

I know it's been suggested before, but it probably warrants bringing up again:

The game would be a lot healthier if Crit simply didn't exist and Rangers as a class were transitioned more into ranged AD casters or auto-attack focused Mages as their kits dictate. It would require a ton of work, but the payoff would be huge.

Rebonack1 votes

The analysis is mostly spot on, but I feel compelled to point out that there's more to counter-play than just dodging skillshots.

Dodging skillshots and proper positioning (why is that one always left out?) are both tactical counter-play. The in-combat things you can do to counter someone. There's also strategic counter-play. Closing the game out early against late-game scalers. Using split-pushing to force the enemy team apart to promote smaller skirmishes rather than full-on team-fights. So on and so forth. Things to do outside of direct conflicts to improve your chances of winning.

Against Rangers the most important type of counterplay is good positioning. It's why the Rangers with the ability to quickly reposition themselves (or heavily punish bad positioning) have been so popular pretty much forever. They have a built-in counter against their main counter. And against late-scalers like Vayne, closing the game early stops her dead. It's why she's destroying Solo but effectively doesn't exist in Pro play.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

The analysis is mostly spot on, but I feel compelled to point out that there's more to counter-play than just dodging skillshots.

Dodging skillshots and proper positioning (why is that one always left out?) are both tactical counter-play. The in-combat things you can do to counter someone. There's also strategic counter-play. Closing the game out early against late-game scalers. Using split-pushing to force the enemy team apart to promote smaller skirmishes rather than full-on team-fights. So on and so forth. Things to do outside of direct conflicts to improve your chances of winning.

Against Rangers the most important type of counterplay is good positioning. It's why the Rangers with the ability to quickly reposition themselves (or heavily punish bad positioning) have been so popular pretty much forever. They have a built-in counter against their main counter. And against late-scalers like Vayne, closing the game early stops her dead. It's why she's destroying Solo but effectively doesn't exist in Pro play.

You are right. Currently there are options for dealing with ADCs, but proper positioning is very difficult with the current pathing system and minion block. Again, this can lead to frustration and players feeling like the system is working against them.

We can definitely play better, but Riot can also make their system much better too. And why is good positioning emphasized so heavily against ADCs specifically, but against Veigar and Rengar there just wasn't enough options for the enemy player? Riot's balancing is inconsistent and with their current system limitations that hurt positioning, it feels like mages are getting shafted.

DogIsGod1 votes

Every ADC player is stupid, toxic and salty, they think they should be able to 1v1 a full build xin with 2 items.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

And that's a code word that Riot uses, very rarely, but it's closely linked with everyone else's favorite code word: Counterplay. Riot puts so much emphasis on mechanical skill over strategic effort, wanting matchups to be fair even if someone counterpicked the other player, reducing the efficacy of snowballing and making new kits that are completely inconsistent in their damage (Sion Gnar ). There are entire champions who have to use skill to make their damage work (Ezreal Lux Velkoz Ziggs ), but not ADCs.

fair counterpicks? What game are you playing?

Hayaishi21 votes

Spoken like a true melee player and adc hater.

You can't simply change ranged AA into skillshots because it affects everyone.

And the kiting subject is my favorite; What ADC other than Vayne and Tristana(she runs away though) can kite a champion designated to jump carries? What ADC kites Xin Zhao, Irelia, Yi, Fiora, Riven, Vi, Wukong, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Trundle, Nasus, Notcturne, Hecarim or Jax BY THEMSELVES? Other than Vayne who we already know is retarded as fuck, there's not another ADC than can kite any of those champions, even if they have CC.

TTUPhoenix1 votes

{quoted}

Spoken like a true melee player and adc hater.

You can't simply change ranged AA into skillshots because it affects everyone.

And the kiting subject is my favorite; What ADC other than Vayne and Tristana(she runs away though) can kite a champion designated to jump carries? What ADC kites Xin Zhao, Irelia, Yi, Fiora, Riven, Vi, Wukong, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Trundle, Nasus, Notcturne, Hecarim or Jax BY THEMSELVES? Other than Vayne who we already know is retarded as fuck, there's not another ADC than can kite any of those champions, even if they have CC.

Quinn It'd b a real shame if I jumped off of you and turned into a bird.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

It'd be a real shame if Quinn weren't buggy as hell. My arrow's already left my crossbow, now let me step away. Weird, the arrow disappeared in-flight. Oh, Valor, you're telling me an enemy is Vulnerable as my arrow's flying towards them? I guess I'll have to wait until the next attack to exploit that vulnerability.

TTUPhoenix1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2015-09-15T20:22:01.046+0000)

It'd be a real shame if Quinn weren't buggy as hell. My arrow's already left my crossbow, now let me step away. Weird, the arrow disappeared in-flight. Oh, Valor, you're telling me an enemy is Vulnerable as my arrow's flying towards them? I guess I'll have to wait until the next attack to exploit that vulnerability.

item 3070 Quinn item 3070

I cri errytime.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

Spoken like a true melee player and adc hater.

You can't simply change ranged AA into skillshots because it affects everyone.

And the kiting subject is my favorite; What ADC other than Vayne and Tristana(she runs away though) can kite a champion designated to jump carries? What ADC kites Xin Zhao, Irelia, Yi, Fiora, Riven, Vi, Wukong, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Trundle, Nasus, Notcturne, Hecarim or Jax BY THEMSELVES? Other than Vayne who we already know is retarded as fuck, there's not another ADC than can kite any of those champions, even if they have CC.

you can, if you put more power into their spells, by the way they should all be able to kit a melee champ they can without a delay turn, run, attack, you just need one person to slow down the enemy like a support or a tank

Hayaishi21 votes

{quoted}

you can, if you put more power into their spells, by the way they should all be able to kit a melee champ they can without a delay turn, run, attack, you just need one person to slow down the enemy like a support or a tank

Then said melee player is being 2v1ned and doesn't deserve to get a kill.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Spoken like a true melee player and adc hater.

You can't simply change ranged AA into skillshots because it affects everyone.

And the kiting subject is my favorite; What ADC other than Vayne and Tristana(she runs away though) can kite a champion designated to jump carries? What ADC kites Xin Zhao, Irelia, Yi, Fiora, Riven, Vi, Wukong, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Trundle, Nasus, Notcturne, Hecarim or Jax BY THEMSELVES? Other than Vayne who we already know is retarded as fuck, there's not another ADC than can kite any of those champions, even if they have CC.

Kalista

Rebonack1 votes

You can't simply change ranged AA into skillshots because it affects everyone.

Anyone who suggests something like this hasn't considered the result very well.

If ranged auto attacks became skillshots the range would be increased pretty much without question. Instead of dealing with 550 range auto attacks you would be dealing with 850 range skillshots. This would give Rangers a HUGE degree of zone control since they could just spam the hell out of their free ranged nukes in the general direction of enemies to create a large 'do not walk here' zone. It would make the kiting problem even worse, since they could just lob an auto behind them and then keep running.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who suggests something like this hasn't considered the result very well.

If ranged auto attacks became skillshots the range would be increased pretty much without question. Instead of dealing with 550 range auto attacks you would be dealing with 850 range skillshots. This would give Rangers a HUGE degree of zone control since they could just spam the hell out of their free ranged nukes in the general direction of enemies to create a large 'do not walk here' zone. It would make the kiting problem even worse, since they could just lob an auto behind them and then keep running.

Yeah, and I never suggested that. I suggested that the champions were frustrating to play against because their damage was primarily focused into autos which are point and click. If anything, what someone should take from that is that ADCs should have more of their damage put into their skills (which can't critically strike, so hey, less RNG) and less emphasis on their autos.

Br4ndon1 votes

I build blue trinket because it helps me keep AAing people who vanished from the face of Runeterra by walking in some tall grass.

Really why cant ashe just guess and keeping AAing in the general spot someone was a pixel and a milisecond before? She just completely forgets everything thats led up to that moment or something?

ToothpickSamurai1 votes

I believe the only reason Blue Trinket is Purchased over Yellow Trinket is because you don't have to be in gimp range of Rengar's leap when you ward a bush you can safely scout the jungle without being in risk of getting gimped by anyone. That being said I agree that adc's need to stop complaining and do their part when it comes to warding, the days when only the support wards died several seasons ago.

Sasogwa1 votes

Uhm, let's see. ADCs have insane late game scaling ADCs are in a meta where frontlines have huge peeling, and some of the ADC's even themselves have insane selfpeel, to the point you could never catch an ADC in a 1v1 with a melee champion (Kalista Vayne ). Now imagine them being paired with something like Braum Lulu and you're prone to hang yourself. Supports no longer have only 1 item at the end of the game, which is very good because it sucked to spend all money on wards, but on the other hand it indirectly buffs ADCs. In the sake of counterplay, ranged instant CC is being gradually removed. One of the only tools to deal with ranged champions. Also item 3139 is now an awesome defensive item. Attack speed slows, which kinda bring one of the only healthy counters to ADC's (not really menacing to kill them but reducing their DPS significantly) are hated by Riot and gradually removed.

Before, the ADC's didn't do as much damage, they were way easier to zone out/kill. Now you're pretty sure the ADC is gonna survive the fight and deal its insane damage.

All these factors to put the always-meta class in an even stronger state than it was previously.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

Uhm, let's see. ADCs have insane late game scaling ADCs are in a meta where frontlines have huge peeling, and some of the ADC's even themselves have insane selfpeel, to the point you could never catch an ADC in a 1v1 with a melee champion (Kalista Vayne ). Now imagine them being paired with something like Braum Lulu and you're prone to hang yourself. Supports no longer have only 1 item at the end of the game, which is very good because it sucked to spend all money on wards, but on the other hand it indirectly buffs ADCs. In the sake of counterplay, ranged instant CC is being gradually removed. One of the only tools to deal with ranged champions. Also item 3139 is now an awesome defensive item. Attack speed slows, which kinda bring one of the only healthy counters to ADC's (not really menacing to kill them but reducing their DPS significantly) are hated by Riot and gradually removed.

Before, the ADC's didn't do as much damage, they were way easier to zone out/kill. Now you're pretty sure the ADC is gonna survive the fight and deal its insane damage.

All these factors to put the always-meta class in an even stronger state than it was previously.

Sure, that's all true. All of that is a case for why ADCs are strong, but players don't hate classes because they're strong. For ADCs specifically it's more that the players are either fed and get peel or they are useless because their kits have low utility, they don't ward and they need so many different items to do their job.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Pretty darn opinionated, but at least you're decent enough to back it all up, I'll take it.

Not all ADCs are whiny, because there's nearly no reason to whine as an ADC if they KNOW what they're doing, unless their supports are seriously fucking up the lane, which brings to another point. It promotes toxicity because of how team-reliant they are (peels anyone?), and in general too especially for more inexperienced ADC players, so promoting toxicity is actually a better way to say it.

Sometimes ADCs get blue trinket so they don't facecheck like idiots, since most of them don't have the necessarily tools to check in bushes. Wild assassins trying to ambush them and/or their team from a mile away? The blue trinket now has a use. If ADCs try to ward "check" using plain ol' yellow trinkets, they're often already dead by the time they get into warding range, especially for immobile ones that can BARELY peel themselves. And since it's soloQ, you can't simply rely on teammates to ward for you, so I don't see why not getting blue trinkets on ADCs. Hey, at least it's not completely forgotten!

Because of the need for consistent, targeted DPS against objectives and enemies, the ADC role in general becomes important and necessary by default. It's the NON-casting, CONSISTENT (as in you don't have to stop because of mana/cooldowns/etc) DPS that teams need. Sure, mages provide damage as well, but what are they gonna do when everything is on cooldown or they are OOM? The necessity for ADCs would most likely gonna stay "toxic" like this unless the entire system of crits, targeted and non-casting damaging abilities, and itemization gets fully reworked.

Yes, in terms of counterplay, I DO agree. Nothing is worse than lost teamfights because I simply didn't polymorph the enemy ADC from a support standpoint that actually builds armor. Nothing is worse than getting pooped on because of a missed skillshot as a mage, and then get kited to oblivion because ADCs don't have to worry about spellcasting. And of course, nothing is worse than getting killed because of a few "lucky" crits in a row. It's just the nature of ranged, spell-less, targeted, and consistent DPS. But again, such counterpicking are usually champion-specific, it's not just ADCs that you have to counterpick yourself into. (Also why the only reason we love Rengar for his "bye-bye ADC" kind of mechanic)

Just here to answer some theoretical questions.

The solution? A little buff on ARMOR items would be fine, or simply revert some of the armor item nerfs. But make sure to tweak the bars so that poke supports are not useless botlane (because that's what too much defensive strats do), juggernauts don't outclass everyone else, and make sure tanks don't 1v5 entire teams (RIP Sejuani). ADCs don't need buffs, and nerfs aren't necessary because they would still stay useful because of their "get items to be useful" nature. They need reworks or gameplay changes.

Yup, maining support does give me insight on how they work, too. Especially when you did that for a few years.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETE3KdyK,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2015-10-22T22:16:29.236+0000)

Pretty darn opinionated, but at least you're decent enough to back it all up, I'll take it.

Not all ADCs are whiny, because there's nearly no reason to whine as an ADC if they KNOW what they're doing, unless their supports are seriously fucking up the lane, which brings to another point. It promotes toxicity because of how team-reliant they are (peels anyone?), and in general too especially for more inexperienced ADC players, so promoting toxicity is actually a better way to say it.

Sometimes ADCs get blue trinket so they don't facecheck like idiots, since most of them don't have the necessarily tools to check in bushes. Wild assassins trying to ambush them and/or their team from a mile away? The blue trinket now has a use. If ADCs try to ward "check" using plain ol' yellow trinkets, they're often already dead by the time they get into warding range, especially for immobile ones that can BARELY peel themselves. And since it's soloQ, you can't simply rely on teammates to ward for you, so I don't see why not getting blue trinkets on ADCs. Hey, at least it's not completely forgotten!

Because of the need for consistent, targeted DPS against objectives and enemies, the ADC role in general becomes important and necessary by default. It's the NON-casting, CONSISTENT (as in you don't have to stop because of mana/cooldowns/etc) DPS that teams need. Sure, mages provide damage as well, but what are they gonna do when everything is on cooldown or they are OOM? The necessity for ADCs would most likely gonna stay "toxic" like this unless the entire system of crits, targeted and non-casting damaging abilities, and itemization gets fully reworked.

Yes, in terms of counterplay, I DO agree. Nothing is worse than lost teamfights because I simply didn't polymorph the enemy ADC from a support standpoint that actually builds armor. Nothing is worse than getting pooped on because of a missed skillshot as a mage, and then get kited to oblivion because ADCs don't have to worry about spellcasting. And of course, nothing is worse than getting killed because of a few "lucky" crits in a row. It's just the nature of ranged, spell-less, targeted, and consistent DPS. But again, such counterpicking are usually champion-specific, it's not just ADCs that you have to counterpick yourself into. (Also why the only reason we love Rengar for his "bye-bye ADC" kind of mechanic)

Just here to answer some theoretical questions.

The solution? A little buff on ARMOR items would be fine, or simply revert some of the armor item nerfs. But make sure to tweak the bars so that poke supports are not useless botlane (because that's what too much defensive strats do), juggernauts don't outclass everyone else, and make sure tanks don't 1v5 entire teams (RIP Sejuani). ADCs don't need buffs, and nerfs aren't necessary because they would still stay useful because of their "get items to be useful" nature. They need reworks or gameplay changes.

Yup, maining support does give me insight on how they work, too. Especially when you did that for a few years.

Thank you for your time posting. I agree with most of your sentiments, however let me address one thing: armor buffs won't fix the problem of how FRUSTRATING it is to face an ADC. It will mean they kill you less, but it won't stop you from constantly taking damage with no way to dodge while you have to pray the Kalista DCs long enough for your skill shot to hit her. We need changes to the kiting mechanic itself, or at least better interaction and balance between melee and ranged champions.

SwordOfWar1 votes

Rengar annihilates ADCs you have no idea what you're talking about

Ralanr2 votes

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