Lee sin is not a problem, but a symptom of a lager problem.

Dracocrash·May 16, 2017·9 votes·803 views

You know what's gona happen once lee sin gets gutted?

Another lee sin will take his place. It could be kha'zix, or it might even be elise. But the point is junglers have wayy to much influence in the outcome of a game right now. That's why early game junglers are so rampant.

You need to fundamentally change jungle snowballing to fix this problem riot. First it was just competitive play where early game junglers dominated. Now with your first blood tower gold, death timer changes , etc etc this has seeped into solo que as well.

Downvote me all you want, but right now I'd rather have someone like lee sin be meta, rather than kha'zix or sejuani.

20 Comments

hhaavviikkMay 16, 20177 votes

I'll take ANY jungler over seeing lee sin again, he's been top pick ever since his release, so what if there will be a new top pick? at least that finally removes lee sin after years and years of seeing him in the jungle all the damn time

DunkinNoobsMay 16, 20172 votes

Lee isn't even the hottest, most contested jungler right now. That honor goes to Ivern. No one ever goes "Lee's up, gotta pick him" like they do with so many champs in so many roles. No one goes "They got Lee gg we lose" like they do with Ivern and other broken junglers in the past. Despite being the so called King of the Jungle, Lee has never been pick or ban like so many of the most dominant junglers have been in the last several years. The best junglers in each meta become pick or ban, or close to it. I can't recall Lee ever reaching that state in the 3+ seasons I've been playing.

DracocrashMay 16, 20171 votes

true lol

GayFluffyUnicornMay 16, 20171 votes

So as always we justify the stupidity and overpowered state of a champ because other champs are worse. Kinda like ahri isnt too strong because before that it was viktor, syndra. Got it. Scrap balance then

DunkinNoobsMay 16, 20171 votes

If Lee was really as broken as people claim, he would be pick or ban like all broken junglers are. He's not, and hasn't been for several seasons. Graves, Ivern, and Sejuani are all still ahead of him in line, and I don't see nearly as many QQ threads about them as I do Lee, which makes their "Lee is broken" argument lose a lot of credibility.

Funkin DunkinMay 16, 20171 votes

I really don't see what's so special about Graves. Any time the enemy team has him I know I'm 100% safe. I've never died to a Graves gank. He's too easy to avoid.

Sir YamazukiMay 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lee isn't even the hottest, most contested jungler right now. That honor goes to Ivern. No one ever goes "Lee's up, gotta pick him" like they do with so many champs in so many roles. No one goes "They got Lee gg we lose" like they do with Ivern and other broken junglers in the past. Despite being the so called King of the Jungle, Lee has never been pick or ban like so many of the most dominant junglers have been in the last several years. The best junglers in each meta become pick or ban, or close to it. I can't recall Lee ever reaching that state in the 3+ seasons I've been playing.

Lee Sin's pick rate is double that of the second most picked jungler. He has consistently maintained an insanely high pick rate for multiple seasons. The gap between Lee and second also widens at plat+. Ivern while one of the best junglers currently isn't picked and banned anywhere as often as Lee is simply picked. A champion is complained often when they're actually seen, there have been fairly broken champions in the past but not complained about simply because their pick rate was low.

DunkinNoobsMay 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERTHosxd,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-05-16T20:22:44.631+0000)

Lee Sin's pick rate is double that of the second most picked jungler.

The fact that this is the case and yet he still isn't banned is proof that he isn't actually broken. People ban champs they think are broken, especially if they're also popular. I'm starting to see more Lucian bans, but still no Lee bans, for example.

Sir YamazukiMay 16, 20171 votes

Relative to the number of champions his ban rate isn't low either. He's 10th currently (4th for just junglers). I'm not sure if there's really been much champions that were heavily targeted by bans lately due to various people wanting to ban something else. Bans are spread across several champions currently. Some of their ban rates may go up when ever possible bans are increased though.

Funkin DunkinMay 16, 20171 votes

I only ban Lee when I get auto filled jungle. He's the biggest pain in the ass the be counter jungled by.

Sire HippingtonMay 16, 20172 votes

Early game junglers have been rampant for high elos ever since S3, and it started all with lee(and Elise, the robin to his batman) The jungle certainly is to impactfull, but it's nit just an enviromental issue. It's mostly to jungler design and Lee is the beginning of that. He was the first to have literally everything one could wish from a jungle right there for the early game, all while still offereing some utillity later on. He might not be more than a syndrom by now, but he did set the jungle bar that exists till now: "You have to be atleast this busted early and still atleast that usefull later, or your not viable in high elo jungle" And again, that's not an issue with the enviroment, it's an issue with the meta champs beeing balanced around that redicoulus Lee-bar. There's no reason a jungler should be fast clearing, well sustained, good dueling and yet have insane ganking preasure and some solid safety on top all at once, and yet that's what prettymuch every meta jungler has to offer to be viable(well, good dueling can be substituted with high safetyness, it just matters that you can invade without to much worries) Even duering the cinderhulk meta, only Gragas and Seju were played in high elo jungle, because unlik other tanks they did have a dash for a reliable escape aswell as strong early clears and ganks. Junglers need to be more focused on one thign early rather than good at everything. The guy that can invade me with low risk and probably destroy me 1v1 in my own jungle should not be allowed to powerfarm in between while excerting havey preasure on my lanes with his gank potential. Given that jungle by default has a much higher impact early in the game than other positions, balanceing different junglers around a strong early vs other with a weak early and bad late does not worke, they all need differnt strengths and weaknesses IN THE EARLY already.

breakordoom444May 16, 20171 votes

your right.... but the community does not agree.

on a game structure point, your right, lee sin is only good in the hands that know him, so does every champ, the outcome of a game depends on the lanes, not the jungler that bought a tent and put it in mid.

on a community point..... your wrong and will trigger tons of people because lee sin mains believe he's in the perfect spot since release, honestly even i believe lee sin is quite balanced.

FrightningMay 16, 20171 votes

Well, jungle has always been a tricky position to balance because it's the one position that has complete freedom to run all over the map and cause problems for the enemy, which makes it natural to want champions that are strong early game in that position. Where things get hard balance-wise, is that gold income for junglers is almost impossible to get right because if the jungle pays well, then ganking because too risky for most junglers (only the most proficient gankers will find it worthwhile) and you will see late game timebombs like Tryndamere or Master Yi being meta because they can just powerfarm the jungle and reliably turn into monsters later on (sated Devourer meta, anyone?). So you can't make the jungle pay TOO well, you get that problem, but if it doesn't pay well enough, then the only junglers that work are the utility junglers that don't need much gold to function (season 3 jungle meta, anyone?), and that also pushes the game towards junglers having to gank successfully, early, and often, to not get too far behind (once again the proficient gankers become the only gold needing junglers that see play). In the middle, you can get to where a wide variety of jungle champs are at least playable, which is more or less where it is now.

LankPantsMay 16, 20171 votes

Let another fucking champ dominate then. It's been 5 years. I don't give a fuck anymore. I want anything else.

Rock MDMay 16, 20171 votes

"Lee sin is not a problem, but a symptom of a lager problem."

I agree Lee Sin turned me into a raging alcoholic.

MordepoolMay 16, 20171 votes

Lager Problem? Isn't that just achoholism

The DeckownerMay 16, 20171 votes

leesindrom?

Pippen The ShortMay 16, 20171 votes

Ultimately, the problem with making the jungle less of an impact on early games is you would have reduce experience and gold so you pace jungle half a level an entire level behind bot lane. Which could potentially be 3 levels behind a snowballing top or mid, making them even more useless.