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My biggest worry with champions being too unique.

Linna Excel··29 votes·1,686 views

My biggest worry with champions being too unique is that riot is going to start making more and more champs that need to be built around. What does built around mean? It means I can't just pick and play my champ. I've got to either hope my teammates will pick according to what my champ does (not happening in soloqueue) or I'm going to be facing a lot of situations where teammates aren't covering for my flaws or building to my strengths.

Take the Sej rework. I'm not going to talk about everything here, but her E has a lot of power now, but it requires you to have a melee heavy team. So at least you are going to want a tank support and ideally a melee assassin in mid lane. Now if you've got a split pushing top who isn't going to teamfight and you've got a ranged support, Sejuani isn't viable. She can't stack her E well enough alone in a teamfight because it's pretty obvious it is meant to have melee teammates around. Then if your top laner loses lane, he's just going to be blown up in a fight and can't really contribute.

So riot wants uniqueness and skill expression. Here's why this is a problem: riot wants us to main niche picks. Why should I "main" a champ who is probably going to be a good pick in less than half of the games I'm in solely because teammates. This is the big problem in reworking champs for Pros only, pros can coordinate well, soloqueuers not so much. I mean it happens, but not often enough. First picking is a risk. Last picking would be conditional on if my teammates need a tank jungler and if there are enough melee people I can count on in a fight.

So on paper, it's a bad idea to main sejuani. For the sake of the argument, let's assume her to be a representative of new and reworked champs going forward. That is, riot wants niche champs who have to be mained. Now generally speaking, skill expression comes after a bunch of games on a champ. So if I'm not going to main a champ, when am I going to get and develop the proper set of skills for that champ?

This is a contradiction.

Riot wants two things that are relatively exclusive for one another.

I feel like going forward, this is going to be a problem.

28 Comments

THE RlVER KlNG8 votes

Everything about this post was good aside from where you claimed that Riot wants us to main niche champions

Riot is slow as a tortoise to nerf popular generalist picks but will immediately jump on niche offenders or small champion communities. Even when the meta shifts, few compensation buffs are doled out again. As opposed to a generalist like Lee, who is arbitrarily buffed every time he is not seen in pro, along with a few other champs that Riot is quick to coddle.

Otherwise, estoy de acuerdo con tú.

Spacesuit Spiff4 votes

Way i see it, they made generalists for years because they were worried about this, but now theyre like "eh we already have enough soloq champs lets do some stuff we couldnt before". And honestly, their new stuff almost never ends up in the soloq meta longterm anyway so, why not let them make more niche picks?

EndlessSorcerer8 votes

If they were creating new champions who were niche picks, that would be fine.

However, they are changing champions players know and love to shoehorn them into a specific niche.

Need I remind you of the backlash following their attempt to force Mordekaiser into bottom lane?

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

That's an extreme example that was rightfully backlashed though.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Its more iffy with the reworks, though even if we lose a generalist we still have a hundred more

Linna Excel2 votes

This is my concern as well. Riot seems to be slowly getting rid of existing generalist champs as they can.

deadlychuck1 votes

But god forbid they do it to the plagues that are LeeSin Yasuo Lucian Thresh

The ones which have always excelled due to the raw power behind their numerous answers to just about every possible situation.

Arsenic Sulfur1 votes

Lucian is all damage which means he is only viable if he beats everyone else in that department.

Lee is gonna get hit in the divers update.

Yasuo isn't a generalist he does have really bad match-ups(Juggernauts)

Thresh set the standard for supports so he is now a Renekton bar for supports. Could use less tools though.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

Need I remind you of the backlash following their attempt to force Mordekaiser into bottom lane?

*Sharpening pitch fork.

Predatorator8 votes

i'm so thankful for skarner's new passive, bottlenecking him into the jungle, and still making him worse at getting objectives than lots of other junglers.

/sarcasm

sorry for vent

GelsominoKiller3 votes

A terrible rework indeed... Thanks for reminding me Y.Y

9Wly9oMl021 votes

The problem I see with it is that it will be tricky balancing her. If she is played mostly in her niche role, her win rate is going to reflect that a lot, since any champ played in their ideal setting will generate more wins. If she is spammed by mains in every game, her win rate will also reflect that. The community is TERRIBLE at taking context into things like win rate. So when they see Sej is only winning 45% of her games, they'll cry for nerfs...even if she is extremely strong in her niche role. Leads to buffs and then she is "oppressive" in her niche role. The flip flop can happen just as easily. She can be strong in her niche role, played only by people going into a good team comp, and then her winrate will be high. She will be nerfed and left in the dumpster forever like she was last time with the cinderhulk issues.

Erockandroll3 votes

Usually, Riot makes champions with that synergy, however, said synergy is rarely necessary to really make the champion tick. Yasuo for example, you would think his ult's requirement for a knockup, would require him to be paired with other champs that have knockups. Yet despite that synergy, Yasuo isn't really balanced around that fact, and is quite capable on his own.

Harambe3g2 votes

[deleted]

Linna Excel7 votes

I wish it were just that simple.

What I'm talking about it riot wants people to main champs... that means play them in a lot of games, however they are making champs which ideally shouldn't be blindly picked that often.

Let's say riot makes a champ you need at least 50 games on to be okay with. Now let's say you'll get a team it is a good idea to be picking that champ on 10% of the time. That means you'll need on average 500 games before you can call yourself skilled, unless you don't mind playing in a bad comp for you 90% of the time.

deadlychuck2 votes

This is why generalist champions like lee sin, yasuo, lucian, or thresh, are so fucking broken and overloaded relative to other champions. This is only exacerbated in blind pick.

I think one of the biggest philosophy mistakes riot has ever made, was to push the games strategy away from the in-game and towards the pre-game. This is probably a change that's made for ranked and pro play, yet isn't exactly what pushed the game to it's popularity.

Using pro-play as an example. You use to have signature champions, which teams would target ban to avoid. Yet these were bans based on player information, not champion information. You could really pick just about any team, and have a reasonable chance of it being functional. I don't watch much pro-play (not a big sports fan), but i do recall back in like season 2 there being a game which basically took advantage of utility stacking, and either won or nearly won by playing something like 5 supports.

The point is, that champion uniqueness doesn't just detract from team ordination, it also detracts from player expression. Malzahar is a great example of this becoming in increasing issue. There is no real player input on the play pattern of the champion. You can't pick how you order or time your moves, because there are basically mandatory mechanics which you have to play into for the champion to be effective.

LadyRenly1 votes

As a Veigar enthusiast, I'm glad they got rid of his enemy ap scaling. I am sure Sej is more "powerful" than before, but it's merely situational. Sometimes I just wanna play whoever, whenever, and not really care what my teammates are playing.(outside of "do we have too much ap/no frontline?")

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Somehow dota manages to balance more items with more active abilites around more unique champions with a smaller team.

Maybe they're super valvo bots tho.

50000000000000001 votes

This reminds me of a time I first picked Amumu, and the rest of my team all picked AD.

3TWarrior1 votes

people have mentioned lee, well this is a side-buff to him as he can easily get into his melee range and pummel away whereas sej can run in top lane

Unvictus1 votes

It's all part of their elaborate plan to remove soloq again and make playing with premades the norm.. kappa

Violet Fields1 votes

Now that Galio's R is gone, Kennen has been the only mobile AP carry with an AoE burst combo but then they nerfed him because his stun is CC. Now, it doesn't even do anything, people have lifesteal, magic resist and whatnot so it's easily countered now. Karthus's Q does more damage than the entire duration of Kennen's ultimate.

Kennen has become the 2nd version of Gnar building item 3022 and tank items to sustain his kit by doing effective dps while his crappy ultimate goes off. This is why we had various champions with circle ultimates.

Galio: Taunt Kennen: Stun Karthus: Flat Damage/Sec Fiddlesticks: Silence Morgana: "Something" Nunu: Slow

Now half of these won't exist anymore.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

It means I can't just pick and play my champ

Not a problem as long as you have enough champions you are good at. If you want to 1 trick something you need to live with bad matchups and bad team comps anyway. That's a problem of 1 tricks.

deadlychuck1 votes

There's a difference between 1 tricking and blind picking.

Linna Excel1 votes

I'm not talking about one tricking. What I'm talking about is riot is doing champions assuming that people will make picks to work around teammates picks or they only work in very specific situations.

Then there's also the problem of niche jungler. Jungle mains need to have a lot of champs on their roster. You've got to have a champ you can first pick because you don't know what your teammates are going to do. You've got to be able to fill any gaps in your team comp. You've got to know how to play tanks, carries, assassins, hard initiation, AD champs, AP champs, champs who can wave clear or split push, and in higher elo you need early game gankers as well.

So if Sejuani was the only tank I knew and post rework she's only a good tank to pick 20% of the time, that means I need (an)other tank(s) for the other 80% of the time. The concern is that if turning existing champs into niche picks continues, I'll need to know 5 tanks to jungle in addition to all the other roles a jungler has to do AND if I'm an early pick I have to hope that my other teammates pick around the type of champ I've chosen. So even if I do know 5 tanks, my teammates could ignore what I've picked and I'm going to have a rougher time for it.

Now apply this situation to all 5 roles.

Riot is making and reworking champs around synergy when soloqueue is too chaotic for such a thing to happen for most people.

Aptest1 votes

I agree with you but i feel this relates more to other champions s.a. Illaoi, Yasuo, GP to some extent, kalista, azir.

The more champions are "unique" i.e. have something completely unorthodox in their kit, the more you need either specific opponents / strategies to keep up with them, or specific allies.

logically, the game will move towards a "hard counter" direction where countered champions will be unable to farm or function in some important scenarios in the game. I don't mean it will move all the way there, but definitely to some extent.

so you won't be able to pick 'just about anyone'. Potential countered picks (Trundle and other full melee champions, skill shot mages, etc) become unviable unless they can see the enemy composition. Potential hard counters become unviable unless they can see that they are countering opponents.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I wouldn't say Riot wants you to main a champ.

https://askghostcrawler.tumblr.com/post/154515131443/early-on-i-would-play-a-few-champions-to-see

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Take the Sej rework. I'm not going to talk about everything here, but her E has a lot of power now, but it requires you to have a melee heavy team.

Its not true... for begin u think of Sef just of one spell. She has a whole kit.

Take the Sej rework. I'm not going to talk about everything here, but her E has a lot of power now, but it requires you to have a melee heavy team.

Even in this case u just thinking about mid-late game here. With a melee splittpusher its easier to get fed with sej, and atm the early is what's the most important.

She can't stack her E well enough alone in a teamfight because it's pretty obvious it is meant to have melee teammates around.

She can stack it alone easly with her ult. And even without an other melee top laner, she will be in front... Her role hasn't changed, she's an engager a vanguard.

Then if your top laner loses lane, he's just going to be blown up in a fight and can't really contribute.

And what's different than actualy ???

Why should I "main" a champ who is probably going to be a good pick in less than half of the games I'm in solely because teammates.

Its already the case for most, and in ur cases u speak about otp. Because if its a main u just have to take your other main. Next sejuani will be good in more than half games. Top are usualy melee (divers/tank...). She have tools to be useful in most situation.

I've got to either hope my teammates will pick according to what my champ does (not happening in soloqueue) or I'm going to be facing a lot of situations where teammates aren't covering for my flaws or building to my strengths.

So in the end its exactly like current game

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