as an ADC main, i've heard all the insults and shit talk.
so my question to you, not to start an argument, just genuinely curious,
what do you think an ADC is supposed to do in the game, from start to finish. early game to late game to end game.
Infernape29 votesIn terms of damage, aside from Jhin, sustained DPS. Stormrazor should never have been added to the game.
Hayaishi22 votesClearly adc's sole purpose for existing should be to be hunted by melee champions and assassins for sport.
saltran4 votesI'll play that, spot the true ADC main.
The Great Divide5 votesUnfortunately, quite a few melees and assassins on these boards actually see it this way.
Spacesuit Spiff4 votesYou joke, but I think that IS a big part of why they're kept mandatory. They ensure there's a juicy target for the hunter, all else revolves around that.
@original question, they should have medium but consistent damage in order to whittle down teams over the course of a fight. Not bursty, but having the highest damage potential over 10+ seconds. They're a win condition in teamfights because of what they can bring if they survive the whole thing.
Ceazaru2 votesClearly adc's sole purpose for existing should be to be hunted by melee champions and assassins for sport.
I can't say much about an Assassins they're pretty much specialized to engage, put out large amounts of single target damage and get out fast but if you get caught by some immobile melee champion then that's on you for not kiting and your teams fault for not peeling.
Smartness Immune14 votesTo carry my ass while i press my E shilding ability on them.
saltran5 votes[slayer-jinx-catface]
RainXBlade3 votesShudders from PTSD from Ardent Censer Meta
Bonipherus11 votesmarksmen should be:
marksmen should NOT be:
Important note: obviously some marksmen, like 
for example, can break the rule about being the highest damage source that a team should play around in order fill a niche within the marksmen class. aka "protect the kog" team comps.
edit: clarity
OtterlyLost5 votesSo in other words, they should be the weakest class at every point in the game. Because it's fair to expect a champion class to have the worst early and mid game, an extreme lack of early game agency, to be so fragile a stiff breeze could blow them up, and to still not be allowed to do the most damage in the late game due to your arbitrary,"but I should be the best carry!"
Do people even play ADC? Its fucking shitty. You spend your entire lane phase at the mercy of your jungler and support. Mid game, you are weak and vulnerable because you dont have items and, again, you're at the mercy of your support. And late game is finally the point where you get to do shit but only if the game lasts that long and only if your team arent fucking stupid and spoon feeding gold to any carry on the enemy team with even the smallest of gap closers and the ability to flank well; in other words, still at the mercy of your team. ADC is the single most team reliant role in the game; if there is one blowing you up because they're fed and playing well, then they've flippin earned that.
reaper40426 votesOFC they should be weak, they can do what 500-700+DPS at range plus true damage? THeir damage should be tied to their mobility, Kalista is rand kogmaw are really good in that sense, Kogmaw cant really move but can melt entire teams, kalista cant deal nearly as much damage but she has the best kiting(imo) out of all adc's. In this meta tho its all about burst so maybe we should compensate and give all adc's hyper armor and scaling health with ad. Because that would be sooooo balanced.
OtterlyLost2 votesYou're actually using Kalista as an example of a balanced ADC? LOL. Were you here in season 5? She was literally pick or ban and completely ran over any other ADC in the game.
No, ADCs should either have the best late damage to compensate all of the massive fucking draw backs they have or they should be given something to allow them to exist pre 30 minutes to compensate for a weaker late game. It's one or the other
Bonipherus6 votesSmall caveat to what you said here- marksmen should have the best late game safe dps. A melee champion who invests in full damage like a marksman should beat them in damage due to their inherently riskier kit. A marksman in this situation has historically been the superior pick vs a full damage melee carry due to their safety even if the melee deals more damage- the risk/reward dynamic has to remain.
Atmosphere2 votesThat's still how it is. Its riskier to dive into a team as full damage Darius than it is to sit back as an ADC, but a Darius will (9/10 times) instanuke an ADC that tries to kite by E'ing them in. People complain about ADCs being mandatory, but the only reason they were so heavily picked in the first place is because of what you said: they're safe DPS. They're safe, consistent, and you know you're going to get value out of them if you get them to the point they need to be at.
Bonipherus8 votesNot at all what I said.
Marksmen should not be strong solo laners because they are safe through natural range and triple scaling ad, attack speed, and crit which outclasses armor and health's dual scaling. If marksmen are strong solo laners then any melee champion is doomed to lose to them at all stages of the game. Melee champs have to be able to consistently beat a marksmen due to their natural range disadvantage in a 1v1 assuming both players are of equal skill in order to justify ever taking a melee champion over a ranged champion for anything else besides cc, burst, or supporting said ranged champion.
Marksmen's natural strengths of dps, ranged safety, and great damage scaling needs to be balanced with weaknesses. This is not saying they need to be useless at any point in the game nor is it saying they need to be the Ubercarry every game. The entire game should not revolve around one player every game or else we devolve back to the game of Better Bot Lane Wins.
Meep Man10 votesEarly Game: Farm, play safe and only really go Aggro with ganks Mid Game: Farm and slowly become more aggressive, take picks when you can, near the end start killing everything Late Game: Start killing everyone End Game: Still kill everyone
Of course, thats the general idea for a Marksman. There probably should be some that break this formula.
Ryusaether2 votesWow an entire season complaining about solo player value and now you should only play aggro on ganks.
Just, wow.
PB4UAME2 votesAre you trying to imply ADCs are ever solo botlane, in any meta comp?
Guess what? they have a support holding their hand from the very first second of the game. ADCs are NOT nor have they ever been a 'solo' class, ESPECIALLY early game.
Further, ADCs would be completely broken if they could be viable if played solo from the start. There is a reason Quinn and Graves break Jungle and Top lane anytime they are remotely decent.
AirKingNeo3 votesYou're misinterpreting what he said. He's saying that lanes shouldn't need junglers to play aggressively.
Ryusaether4 votesThank you.
Individual action should ALWAYS be rewarded if done properly. If the enemy missplays I shouldn't be dependant on my jungler to punish and kill him "because I'm an ADC and I can only farm early".
Sex With Annie4 votesadcs should not begin to be fun 40 minutes into the game
AirKingNeo1 votes- mage main gameplay boards
Critmaster Garen7 votesbe a carry, but in line with the rest of leagues carries, instead of over the top like pre 8.11.
and ideally, not mandatory to every team and the sole focus and center of every teamcomp, like every other type of carry.
Disembark7 votesShould be a free bag of gold for me to collect.
Alex h87216 votesConsistent DPS both to objectives and champions, In teamfights and skirmishes if they position well (or are peeled for well) and are able to hit freely they should pump out good damage but if an enemy is able to disrupt them they should be far less effective in a teamfight. Same concept for towers, if they siege properly (tanks up front, trap line as cait etc) they should be able to pop down towers easily if they avoid getting engaged on.
And their drawbacks should be being vulnerable and squishy, and also not having CONSISTENT single target burst (bascially adc shouldn't be able to burst unless they hit everything, for example cait getting a trap headshot into net headshot into Q to burst someone down). And generally i think this holds true in this meta for most adcs, but IMO its also the reason that 
with his easy burst combo and ridiculous amount of AD/MS from his passive, 
w/ her self peel and high burst, And 
who can scale up to the point where she barely has to worry about positioning b/c of how high her damage is are a bit out of line.
Veraska4 votesFarm up until 4+ items when their dps starts to out scale the burst of mages/assassins and their range outclasses tanky fighters
In the early game (pre 4 items) they should be able to beat other marksman and supports but because of the nature of their itemization and the fact they share XP with a lane mate they shouldn't be beating solo laners
At all stages of the game they're expected to catch waves while other teammates are warding and to be with their team when contesting objectives or sieging turrets
2Charmnot2Charm4 votesRanged Sustained DPS so the team can have the damage to take towers, epic monsters, and deal with tanks reliably.
My only issue with marksmen was how quickly they and their supports can get items compared to the solo laners.
Terozu4 votesDPS, deal little but consistent damage in the "death of a thousand cuts" kind of way.
In counter spell cool downs all need to be raised.
Mordepool3 votesSecure towers. Single target DPS in team fights. Be arrogant.
That's all I got
Hemulen Magi3 votesI am going to make a long post, so I'll split it into sections to make it easier to read and respond to. I am discussing what I think marksmen should be design-wise, not how they should function in the current game. How I think they should function design-wise would only work in a drastically rebalanced game.
Part 1:
Marksmen should soften targets for their team from the safety of the back-line. They should deal ramping up DPS and should enhance allies with more effects like 
ult, along with providing plenty of vision utility like 
hawk shot. A marksman with a front-line teammate should be much more effective than either is alone, but a marksman (or a mage, or any back-liner, for that matter) should be much more vulnerable in general when solo compared to most melee champions. This should be a trade-off for the fact that a marksman (or mage) can more easily and safely farm at range from the protection of a turret (ps. turrets should be buffed) and, if too self-sufficient, marksmen are often extremely oppressive at denying melee opponents farm in laning (ie., the case of ranged top laners).
The best meta marksmen should deal no significant burst. Burstier marksmen (such as 
) should exist, but they should be more niche, with lower average winrate/popularity, than the teamwork-focused ramp-up/resist-shred marksmen.
If marksmen outduel someone melee 1vs1, it should require a long fight involving lots of kiting, where the melee target can usually safely disengage (assuming they're not stupid) if the fight turns bad for them. It should nearly always require an allied CC source (such as a controller or CC tank support) to help a marksman secure a kill, or an assassin to cleanup a fleeing target that a marksman has "softened up". Assists should share more gold so that people aren't concerned about who "kill secures". It might even be healthier for the game to simply scrap the distinction between kills and assists and merge them into a single score of "takedowns".
Marksmen should be able to hold their own against mages by building items like 
, but marksmen vs mage fights should always come down to a skill matchup assuming both sides have built well. Defensive marksmen items should be more gold efficient than pure offense marksman items, with more items added like 
(laning vs marksman) or (laning vs mage) as the core early laning items for most marksmen, helping them outduel their opponent in laning. Marksmen shouldn't frequently build glass-cannon and should be much safer from getting bursted. There can be exceptions, but the top tier (most reliable meta) marksmen and their core builds should fit this general rule.
Hemulen Magi3 votesPart 2: There should be a utility marksman item that ramps up a stacking buff when attacking enemies and shares at least part of the buff as an (active or passive?) aura with teammates. A vision focused marksmen item, such as the Lightbringer could also be added to SR.
Last Whisper items should be reworked to grant ramping up attack speed for the marksman while attacking a target. 
should apply armor debuff stacks against the target and 
should apply grievous wounds. 
should also build out of and should also grant ramping up attack speed combined with the current scatter shot effect. Because of the attack speed cap, marksmen should need to carefully choose their build to get the most value out of their items, and trying to cram both crit with these shredding items should generally be a bad option (so marksmen choose tank shredding or general DPS/borderline-burst). Certain crit items could also be made better stand-alone items, such as 
, so that there is an option to mix-and-match, but a full crit build with 
should usually exclude trying to go for more than 1 item at most because of 
items already granting attack speed (and keep in mind that I think full glass-cannon should be discouraged).
All should be ranged-only. and 
cleaving passives should be mutually exclusive and both should build out of the removed Giant Slayer component, which should be given the unique cleaving passive. should grant %base AD as bonus AD (and most marksmen should have terrible base AD), so only tough brawler ranged champions like 
should ever opt for over .
I also think that lifesteal should be changed so that it is not amplified by crit so that lategame drain-tanking marksmen aren't so overbearing and lifesteal items can then potentially be buffed for other users. I don't think lifesteal items need sustain buffs for other users, but 
's shield could be made to feel more useful for melee drain-tanks for example, and it could become a decent defense+sustain laning item for marksmen before they obtain crit or if they go a non-crit route.
Hemulen Magi3 votesPart 3: So this section isn't generally about marksmen, but there would be ramifications on other classes if marksmen has the role I think that they should.
Assassins:
Assassins as-is would not be able to thrive in a world where they cannot burst marksmen because marksmen build defensive items in laning. In my opinion, assassins should not burst even the squishiest champions from full health in <2 seconds but they should remain "burstier" than other classes. Instead, assassins should emphasize their role as "map controllers" and cleaning up fights. I definitely think assassins should feel extremely mobile and can have a lot of power fantasy in having the most opportunities to inject themselves into fights everywhere around the map, with a lot of power coming from the element of surprise. I also think they can also have more abilities to control the map like 
's boxes instead of having all their budget in burst.
I think lethality items would also need a significant revamp, especially since assassins will no longer have access to or and tank slaying should never be the assassin's role. I can imagine 
being acceptable on AD assassins if they absolutely need to deal with tanky opponents (but it should be a big investment that discourages assassins vs tanky team comps).
I think lethality and magic pen should be merged into a hybrid/adaptive stat. The items themselves would not necessarily be hybrid (not suggesting adding AP to 
for example) but the lethality stat would equally amplify the assassin's physical and magic damage, which can be a big deal for certain champions 
and can make their builds feel more fluid. I like the utility effects on certain lethality items, like Blackout on 
and the mobility (translates into map presence which feeds into the "map controller" emphasis) on and I'd like to see those effects played up and the pure burst power budget played down somewhat.
I would love to see a new lethality item which is specifically designed for assassin split-pushing, which could be some sort of "saboteur kit" which can be activated to deposit land-mines around the map. The mines would be used strategically to defend an escape route for the split-pushing assassin. I think that the mines could also be placed on structures and detonated to add extra DPS to structures (keep in mind that I think turrets should be buffed beforehand).
Tanks:
I think tanks should be significantly buffed on one hand, but the added tools in the hands of marksmen should make tanks remain manageable. I also think mages should get new DPS DOT items which would also keep tanky champions manageable. I think tanks should be generally stronger than they currently are, but it should be possible to effectively deal with them as long as you bring mixed damage and build against them.
Fighters: I think fighters are fine as they are. If they can reach a target, they can crush them, but they can also provide a defensive meat-wall for their back-liners. However, as long as a marksman or DPS mage is protected by allied controllers and a front-line, they should have the tools to kite and soften up enemy fighters to allow their team to take them down. I think fights should often revolve around the front-liners (tanks and fighters) colliding until one line shatters from the combined damage of the other front-line plus the back-line artillery (marksmen and mages) whittling them down, or if an assassin or diver manages to disrupt the enemy back-line, causing the formation to shatter prematurely so that scattered targets can be picked off.
Mages:
I think standard mages should be viewed as back-line artillery in the same primary category as marksmen, and they should be roughly equally viable in the same lanes (mid and bot). Mages should provide a bit more CC and AOE damage on average and marksmen should provide a bit more single target DPS and maybe slightly more vision/mobility, but they should feel pretty interchangeable beyond damage type (physical/magic) output differences and extremely different playstyle feels (so they would still have separate learning curves). Marksmen can already spec into AOE with but I think mages are still lacking in good DPS/DOT and single-target DPS/resist-shred itemization to give them better playstyle variety depending on their builds. I think we also need a new mage champion added who is essentially purely single-target DPS/resist-shred, since we have a decent number of CC oriented marksmen with comparable CC to mages already.
Altiverse3 votesThe problem is the state of the game altogether rather than the ADC role on its own.
The state of the game the past two seasons?
With everything in this game out of order, you expect a specific role in the game to have something they are "supposed" to do? because nothing at all works the way it's supposed to.
c001catdad1 votesfirst all the forum crybabies complain that adc do too much damage with auto attacks, leading riot to nerf the shit out of any auto attack dependent adc to the point where all of those types are sitting at the bottom of the tierlist and now u want to rob adcs of their burst dmg.
so by your logic, if adc's aren't allowed to do auto attack damage or burst dmg, wtf kind of damage are adcs supposed to do?
Altiverse2 votesI'm not sure how you managed to miss my point entirely.
first all the forum crybabies complain that adc do too much damage with auto attacks, leading riot to nerf the shit out of any auto attack dependent adc
That was objectively a much needed change. They did not deal "sustained damage through their auto attacks". They literally dealt as much (and more) damage than current-burst-adcs PER auto attack. Not only is it not how it should be, it was a major offender in balance for a long time. That had to be addressed asap.
and now u want to rob adcs of their burst dmg so by your logic, if adc's aren't allowed to do auto attack damage or burst dmg, wtf kind of damage are adcs supposed to do?
Said I nowhere. I mentioned that ideally, if the game worked correctly in all the aspects I mentioned, ADCs should have a power-neutral change from the current burst playstyle to a more healthy, sustained damage playstyle. Which is currently simply out of question because as I said - if you don't have burst you're not viable. It currently cannot work, and the game's state is at fault. Which does explain why, as you said
to the point where all of those types are sitting at the bottom of the tierlist
RyzeTheSmurfMage3 votesSustained DPS. Not burst since their main dmg source can't be dodged.
MadNoff2 votesI think ADC should do what assassins do OVER TIME while being supported.
For example, if balanced ZED can 100-0 a vel'koz in 4 seconds, and ADC shud be able to 100-0 a vel'koz in 7 seconds.
Just sustained dmg which cannot burst/ very little CC/ little to no escapes and dependant on support as a guardian.
Thanks how i envision them.
OtterlyLost2 votesI think what an ADC should do should vary from ADC to ADC. :/ we dont have that because their items have become really homogenized but still. I feel like ADCs like Lucian, MF, Draven, Jhin should be early game aggressors that eventually fall off; their lane should be strong and sure, they can have a strong midgame in teamfights but in some way, they should fall off. There is no reason for them to still be destroying late game ADCs 40 minutes into the game.
I feel like there should be ADCs like Tristana, Jinx, and Cait who, while dont dominate necessarily in lane, are middle ground as far as power curve; they can put out a lot of damage and pressure in lane but if they mishandle themselves, will get heavily punished by lane bullies. And they should have exceptionally weak midgames unless they are grossly ahead to make up for the fact that their late game is fairly decent.
There should be ADCs like Kog, Vayne, Kaisa(when she's properly balanced) who have terrible lane phases but with proper wave management, proper positioning and a good support can scale into a decent mid game and a stellar late game.
And finally, there should be ADCs like Varus, Ashe, Xayah, and Sivir who are caster based and scale well purely on the utility that they bring to the team. They have good teamfights with perhaps weaker than average lane phases but shine particularly well just due to their utility.
Jinzo Torrance2 votesEat dog food
DeracadaVenom2 votes[{quoted}](name=ADC eat dog food,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EOYwRxA5,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-09-25T20:04:15.350+0000)
Eat dog food
lmaoo I get it
Alzon2 votesEarly: Sit back and farm. You’re half of a solo lane, where players balance wave management, last-hitting, harass, and vision. You manage the wave into optimal position for the map situation (jungler location, mid pressure, etc.) while getting last-hits, and the support focuses on harass and mitigating it against you. You both contribute toward vision. Your goal is NOT to permashove - you can easily take the turret off of a successful gank, so getting some chip damage every few waves isn’t necessary. Plus, doing so puts you in a dangerous position.
Mid: Become the mid laner with your support. Stay mid to keep the wave on the other side of the map and be in position to assist in fights and taking objectives. Do not go to side lanes unless you’re collapsing and have flank vision - let the mid and top laners take care of side waves.
Late: Same as mid, except you’ll typically be much stronger and can look to make more risky plays.
AirKingNeo2 votesDeal consistent DPS and kite, but blown up when mispositioned. They are the star player on the team because they have the most consistent damage, but there does need to be trade offs when team comps focus around an ADC with a mage mid, tank sup, and hypercarry adc.
Fear the Kayn2 votessustained, low burst DPS. More of a pokey pokey champion. If a juggernaut or assassin gets in their face the ADC should get rekt no issues.
Wind2342 votesI, too, play a lot of marksmen, and judging from the comments, it looks like I share a lot of opinions. I do think that marksmen should be weaker in the early game, thus justifying both their need for a support and their late-game scaling. In terms of kits and abilities, they should provide mostly damage, but having utility (like Ashe's hawkeye, Ezreal's warp, Sivir's spell shield) to help survive a bit would be good. They shouldn't have super heavy CC in their kits unless it's an ultimate ability, and they should be pretty reliant on their team to survive to a point where they can be self-sufficient.
They shouldn't really be a big threat until around the mid-late game (unless they get fed, but that's a rule for literally everyone), where they have 2 or 3 items to really kick things off. By late game, they should be THE biggest damage threat from pure DPS - "death of a thousand cuts" does sound more appropriate. If they're alone against most enemies, they should probably die even at this point in the game (mages and assassins should nuke them, melee fighters should have the means of sticking to them and deleting them before the marksman can take them down), but if they're properly protected and position well, then they should be able to get the maximum damage output. I don't think they should have a lot of outplay tools in their kits, either.
What they SHOULDN'T be is burst-per-second ranged assassins that melt people before they can retaliate. They also shouldn't be so weak that they're basically just food for any assassin who happens to be around. They should naturally have strengths that other classes don't - ranged DPS and objective taking, for example - but also should have weaknesses - not good during the early game, very squishy and not self-sufficient - to make them balanced. Granted, there are exceptions to this rule. Hell, Jhin is so different, I wonder if he might be his own class, but I think making lethality less appealing to marksmen would be ideal. I'm really not sure how to do that, but it'd help solve some of the OP marksmen right now. Though to be fair, I also think most marksmen are in a pretty good place right now.
BestPudgeNA2 votesI don't really care what an ADC should do i care what the shouldn't do which is
CIayman2 votesStand in the back, hit objectives, and deal reliable, consistent DPS
With some exceptions, of course
DragonShea2 votesPrimary damage dealer in most cases. Deals damage to anyone that the main threat to the team and can poke and siege and attack towers. Some trade a small amount of damage for utility.
Mobile ADC's are duelists by nature and should never be 1v1 by most champs and are high-risk High Reward champs. 
Immobilie ADC's are siegers that can ward off danger with traps or CC. Have more AoE potential to better in teamfights. 
Mage-Marksmen have their own unique mechanics and niche but always deal high magic damage in comparison to their physical damage dealing counterpart. 
Pros:
Cons:
FurriesAreHot3 votesVery fair assessment I agree with. I'd personally add "Inconsistent damage early" as a con due to how Criticals work as of right now
Slim Gragas2 votesAssassinate enemies in a couple hits with Stormrazor
