To people that hate ADC.

JoeAnarchy·Sep 11, 2018·20 votes·9,120 views

what do you think the role is there for? and how would you like to see it changed? what would make it balanced in your perfect world? do you not want them to be the AD CARRY? do you not want them to do large amounts of high sustained damage? do you not want them to be hard scaling team fight winners? what is it that you all find so bad about them? what do you want changed? i'm asking a legitimate question, and am not attempting to flame or argue. i'm actually just curious.

59 Comments

SugeMinPikkSep 11, 201812 votes

{quoted}

what do you think the role is there for?

hitting turrets

and how would you like to see it changed?

better at hitting turrets, worse at hitting champions

what would make it balanced in your perfect world?

the possibility of someone else being the turret hitter, and maybe a specialized champion hitter goes down there instead

do you not want them to be the AD CARRY?

hit the turrets

do you not want them to do large amounts of high sustained damage?

sustained yes, burst no

do you not want them to be hard scaling team fight winners?

late scalers

what is it that you all find so bad about them?

they are the only mandatory class of champions in the game

what do you want changed?

hit turrets

i'm asking a legitimate question, and am not attempting to flame or argue. i'm actually just curious.

yes ~jax, zed, yasuo, lucian, and vayne player

BLIGHTBRINGERSep 11, 201810 votes

hitting turrets

In that case they need a new role. Because everyone is able to deal the same damage to towers anyway with all the damage that exists.

they are the only mandatory class of champions in the game

The game is designed around the fact that a champion from each class should be picked, ideally. Every class should be mandatory, it's just a case of more who is currently more dominating.

Vlada CutSep 11, 201810 votes

{quoted} vayne player

Champions affect the players behaviour. Vayne being all so serious and careless makes Vayne players such big jerks to deal with. T_T

SugeMinPikkSep 11, 20181 votes

hey man

ZerenzaSep 11, 201811 votes

The role is there first to be the go-to when DPS and Shredding is needed, whether it be for killing tanks or getting objectives, ADC's are there for that.

It needs to be changed in a lot of ways.

Marksmen tend to get away with a lot less counterplay than other classes, considering 90% of their damage comes from AA's those can't be dodged and if an ADC get's to far ahead every squishy on your team is punished for it. This is why ADC's are usually kept incredibly squishy, how do you stop something that 1 shots your whole team from range? You kill it, that's how.
Crit needs to be reworked, correctly this time and if they rework Crit they need make it so the best possible build for them is to build crit. This way we don't have Black Clever or Lethality items being built on ADC's again and ADC getting them nerfed for their intended user's(Which they have a very strong tendency to do, Trinity Force, Black Clever, Youmu's, Hexdrinker, Steraks have all been nerfed because of ADC's at one point or another.)

What i find bad about ADC's is the lack of ability to do anything to them when their ahead and their complete uselessness when behind, it just feels like that not only do you have no choice but to have one of the top 3 marksmen on your team but those are the only champions you can play in bot-lane reliably and also if your botlane losses you lost the game more often than not.

I'd rather have a say in the game instead of constantly worrying about the state of my botlane knowing full well if they lose then everything i'v done up to that point is completely useless.

I'd like to see the ADC role be comprised of more than just marksmen but not like it was a couple months ago. I'd like to see crit actually scale with number of auto attacks instead of instantly giving +150% damage so i don't get one shot from range. I'd like to see something done about the dynamic of botlane being so easy to snowball, so i don't have to constantly babysit my ADC and Support.

TLDR: I hate how important the role is to winning the game in comparison to everyone else.

BLIGHTBRINGERSep 11, 20187 votes

what do you think the role is there for?

To siege better than the rest of the champion classes, which is something that is no longer exceptionally good on them anymore. Since every class also deals high damage to towers as well, regardless of their Attack Speed (which doesn't have much impact when you have no damage itself).

I would also say that they are there to deal sustained amounts of damage, not burst oriented but sustained. Meaning On-Hit.

and how would you like to see it changed?

Make Marksman's have the highest Attack Speed by default, reduce the attack speed of other champion classes if need be.

Or make the Attack Speed growth better for them.

Idk what to say about the rest.

IllabetheSep 11, 20186 votes

The three item damage spike across the board on adc outpaces almost every other build in the game, unless the other builds are smurfing.

Adcs now have an upgraded Phage in Stormrazor that they never had before, and since it resets on Crit, it really shines at 3 items.

The entire purpose of Phage before was to help melee's keep up with adcs. Now Adcs have a much more powerful buff.

chipndip1Sep 12, 20186 votes

Here's my thing:

I hate marksmen players not because of whatever you're saying. It's irrelevant. I hate marksmen players in this game because your subclass has been so heavily ingrained into the game that you literally combined the bot lane carry role with the marksman subclass. This game is in a position where it's blatantly not allowed to function without marksmen being key to every team comp in this game, game in and game out. IdgaFLYINGf about what it's here for or "HoW iT coULd BE chAnGEd". The shit I care about is how marksmen players literally have to have their place in every match or it's a problem for everyone else for no good reason.

There will never be a time where we deal with how stagnant marksmen make the game, and it's because of marksmen players.

OmegaNITROSep 12, 20182 votes

That's an interesting take, considering the ADC role developed and became part of the meta strategy before the "marksman" subclass was officially adopted, and before lane assignments in draft even existed.

So it'd probably be more accurate to say the ADC role existed first, and Riot has been trying to separate it into "marksman" and "bot laner".

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ADC

Revisionist history?

chipndip1Sep 12, 20181 votes

You're wrong.

Otherwise you wouldn't have called it the "adc role", but you'd call it the "bot lane" role. That's how ingrained it is in your head.

Nice try though.

OmegaNITROSep 12, 20182 votes

Your statement had nothing to do with my response... if you actually researched LOL Season 1, or the term ADC, you'd learn it existed before the meta emerged, before Riot started calling them all marksmen, and before it became common practice to put the ADC and Support in bot lane because of the proximity to Dragon.

So the role, "ADC", came first, before they commonly were referred to as marksmen, and they became synonymous with "bot lane carry" because it turns out having an ADC and Support there is generally the most effective strategy to win.

So to say that "marksmen players" "combined" the role of a bot lane carry with the marksmen class makes no sense, as the role was ORIGINALLY ADC, and they ended up in bot lane by default because it's the optimal strategy. Back then there were no assigned lanes.

chipndip1Sep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Your statement had nothing to do with my response... if you actually researched LOL Season 1, or the term ADC, you'd learn it existed before the meta emerged, before Riot started calling them all marksmen, and before it became common practice to put the ADC and Support in bot lane because of the proximity to Dragon.

So the role, "ADC", came first, before they commonly were referred to as marksmen, and they became synonymous with "bot lane carry" **because it turns out having an ADC and Support there is generally the most effective strategy to win. **

And here's where you suffer amnesia. Right here.

Riot made a big deal of trying to make it so marksmen were less mandatory to the game's meta. It FINALLY goes through. One month or so later, and we're back where we started. It isn't because marksmen "have to be there to win". Marksmen players won't let themselves be put in a situation where they aren't on every fucking team, every fucking game.

"Bu-bu-but no marksmen were pla-" Wrong. Marksmen WERE played even after 8.11. The difference is that they had new competition. CRIT marksmen weren't played, but Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Lucian, and Jhin when the Stormraizer bug got dealt with were all still good bot lane picks, even when Dinger, Swain, Ziggs, Vlad, and Yasuo were in the lane as well. In solo queue, Draven, MF, and Jinx were still being played in the lane as well.

"Bu-bu-but mages in bot lane were canc-" Well, look who wants a lane all to themselves? You think mages like divers in mid lane? Fuck no, but you don't see mid laners whining for Irelia and Kled to be manually phased out of mid lane. Top lane has a mix of subclasses. Mid lane has a mix of subclasses. Jg has a mix of subclasses. Support has a mix of subclasses. The ONLY role that's fucking stagnant for years is the bot lane carry position, and even when we finally had a starting point to fixing it, it gets reverted SOLELY because of marksman players complaining? Really? I wish I could just whine all the tank supports out of my lane like you guys can. Leagu is a game where you don't HAVE to have an enchanter, or HAVE to have a diver, or HAVE to have a tank, or HAVE to have an assassin, but you ALWAYS have to have a marksman. What a joke.

creatureplexApr 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And here's where you suffer amnesia. Right here.

Riot made a big deal of trying to make it so marksmen were less mandatory to the game's meta. It FINALLY goes through. One month or so later, and we're back where we started. It isn't because marksmen "have to be there to win". Marksmen players won't let themselves be put in a situation where they aren't on every fucking team, every fucking game.

"Bu-bu-but no marksmen were pla-" Wrong. Marksmen WERE played even after 8.11. The difference is that they had new competition. CRIT marksmen weren't played, but Ezreal, Kai'Sa, Lucian, and Jhin when the Stormraizer bug got dealt with were all still good bot lane picks, even when Dinger, Swain, Ziggs, Vlad, and Yasuo were in the lane as well. In solo queue, Draven, MF, and Jinx were still being played in the lane as well.

"Bu-bu-but mages in bot lane were canc-" Well, look who wants a lane all to themselves? You think mages like divers in mid lane? Fuck no, but you don't see mid laners whining for Irelia and Kled to be manually phased out of mid lane. Top lane has a mix of subclasses. Mid lane has a mix of subclasses. Jg has a mix of subclasses. Support has a mix of subclasses. The ONLY role that's fucking stagnant for years is the bot lane carry position, and even when we finally had a starting point to fixing it, it gets reverted SOLELY because of marksman players complaining? Really? I wish I could just whine all the tank supports out of my lane like you guys can. Leagu is a game where you don't HAVE to have an enchanter, or HAVE to have a diver, or HAVE to have a tank, or HAVE to have an assassin, but you ALWAYS have to have a marksman. What a joke.

Uh deal with it or stop playing. Marksman are adcs you also kind of need a mage and kind of need a tank or support or even better learn this formula.

Tanks beat fighters and assassins. But not good against marksman and mages. Fighters beat mages and assassins but aren't good against tanks or marksman. Assassins beat marksman and mages but aren't good against tanks and fighters. Mages beat marksman and tanks but aren't good against assassins and fighters.

It's like a complex version of rock paper scissors that exist in almost every kind of rts and moba games.

You sound like that bitch ass player that gets pissed because he wants to play champions like yi and snowball every game.

Top lane is there to soak up dps you want to play apc mid great but realize that sometimes you're going to play against zed or yasuo. Your waveclear is generally better push his wave and roam problem solved. But marksman are weak early game so they need to fight other weak early game champions.

To make up for this they can carry their team at end game. Because of their importance maybe it might be a good idea to gank bot lane more.

AlzonSep 11, 20185 votes

The better question is, what do stereotypical ADC players not want to be able to do?

I don’t miss the meta where everyone had to pander to the marksmen. I sure as hell don’t miss the meta where each team had at least two marksmen, often more.

The current oneshot-centric snowball fest meta pushed most marksmen down the totem pole, with only the ones who embrace this ideal of blowing someone up without counterplay before running to safety having a guaranteed place in it.

These guys want to:

Survive lane phase.
Go toe-to-toe with assassins at all points of the game.
Outscale everyone.
Shred tanks/bruisers and objectives.
Dodge casters’ abilities and kite them to death.

And, as a consequence of the current meta:

Oneshot everyone at two items.

JeaneGreeneSep 11, 20184 votes

The role is a sustained damage role. The AP equivalent would be Cassiopeia or Azir. Remove Stormrazor, as it promotes burst and every ADC now needs to build it. I want them to be an “end game win condition,” so the Adc can push and team fight (maybe duel) very well, but only in the mid-end game. The issue is that they are replacing burst from AP and AD Assassins with their right click burst, which promotes the ever toxic “burst meta.”

LTK KoRoSep 11, 20184 votes

what do you think the role is there for?

to make everyone orbit around the hyperscaling win condition for both teams. Seriously, for late game safe sustained damage. Nothing else

and how would you like to see it changed?

Better mid game for worse late game. ADCs don't need 1.2k damage crits. They need 600 damage crits combined with high armor pen to melt tanks. But they are assweak at 1 item.

what would make it balanced in your perfect world?

Removal of 200% dmg crits OR less AD/AS from their items. Also, i would love to see ADCs damage to ramp up during battle, like old fervor.

do you not want them to be the AD CARRY?

i want them to be able to carry as good as any other role can. They shouldn't be the the only one win condition in the late game, but they should be able to do something before lategame too.

do you not want them to do large amounts of high sustained damage?

i want them to do a lot of sustained damage, but less damage in one second. As said before, i want their damage to ramp up in combat.

do you not want them to be hard scaling team fight winners?

They should be able to win team fights only when unchecked. ADCs should rely on protection, and not be able to escape any situation by themself (looking at you, Kai'sa)

what is it that you all find so bad about them?

Game resolves around them. Fed ADC changes into ranged assassin with peelbot. I want every role in game to be important. When ADCs are strong, they're the only important role, and rest of the team exist just to help them. Also they do too much damage at start of the combat currently.

what do you want changed?

Give other roles same late game carry potential. For exchange, give ADCs better mid game powerspikes. 1 item ADC should be able to deal SOME sustained damage.

Dark RoyaltySep 11, 20183 votes

The role is there for shredding tanks and hitting towers I would want adc to have less burst (stormrazor) and to do sustained damage They should scale well but not be as good early with storm razor The game shouldnt revolve around adc other classes need to be able to carry They can have austained damage So they are less statcheck and less burst ^ Also kaisa and vayne shouldnt auto win game if they are 3 kills up.When adcs are strong the the rest of the team has to support and play around the adc which is boring. This makes toplane have to play tanks which peel for the adc. This is annoying because tanks are boring to play as and against so the meta being around adc is bad for toplane and jungle players who want to have an impact on the game by carrying.

Sire HippingtonSep 11, 20183 votes

II think there should be more than one 'role' for marksmen, just how we have different typs of mages that can fill different roles.

Imo the main issue for adc is crit. It's all i really dislike on them. First off, it's RNG and imo RNG has no place in this game(or any other competetive game) unless it affects all players equally(like not knowing which map you#ll get in HotS)

But for adc specifically, it two other things i really dislike:

it makes them hyperscale by default simply because the are ranged and use crit
it puts most of their damage into their AAs

This makes it hard to achive any meaningfull diversity amongst adc, as their builts progress, their kits beginn to matter less and less as all the damage comes from rightclicking, they always have a similar powercurve due to how the items spike/scale, and oponents sooner or later have to either kill them quick or die as they can't out tank the damage, they can't avoid it(all ranged point n click) and there are no downtimes to it. This often leads to an binary scenario where you either prevent the adc from playing the game or you loose, which usually is either shit for the adc or for his opponents. Also, their heavy scaleing kinda denies lategame fantasies from other classes, especiall tanky melees.

So what i want is to have crit removed from the game, and adc beeing more balanced through their kit rather than items. Some should stay well scaleing, but they should do so through powerfull on-hit like vayne and kog, or through steroids like twitch. Thos can be balanced through conditions and downtimes so you have more room playing against them than vs the 100% uptime crit dps. Other should get more focus on their abillities and scaleing on them, cait for example could become the sniper she always wanted to be with more emphasis on her Q and R(which can both get outdamage by a lategame headshot-crit atm), one could have varying powercurves with actuall earlygame adc(which we some times had duering flatpen/lethality metas) and others scaleing hard.

Also, which is not only for adc, if they have hyper dps that shreds through tanks, they should not be capable of high upfront burst aswell, and if they have good utillity, their damage should suffer from that. Right now, i feel that many designs have to much of everything which is part of the powercreep issue and the one-shot clownfiesta league feels like today...

OmegaNITROSep 11, 20181 votes

I think this is a pretty well thought out response. Question though:

So if crit was to be removed, what would you put in its place to make AS based champions (which all crit based ADCs are) not become completely inferior to AD assassins, casters, and bruisers?

If it's damage, doesn't this achieve the exact same effect as crit currently does? If they can't deal the same kind of sustained DPS, what would you do to give players a reason to pick them over other champs that don't rely on crit?

Even with more damage on Q and R, Cait's abilities still won't be as reliable or as deadly as say, Zed or Irelia's. And if they were... Are you sure that would be better?

Sire HippingtonSep 11, 20182 votes

partially damage, but in forms like kog W(solid downtime so can be countered by disengage when he uses it and reengage when it wears out), or vayne W(needs to keep hitting the same target consistently as low range carry), some of the current crit adc could change a bit, tris could be more of a caster type of adc that gets more reward and the needed survivabillity for going in deep with W resets and full stack Es. Cait could get alot more power into her Q and maybe ult and scale better of ad. I think an important thing for adc-scaleing with abillitites would be to tie more things to level in adition to abillity rank, tristanas E would be an example. It would be nice to move alot damage there, but if it all was in abillity ranks, she'd spoke rather early, so if she's ment to work through e and still be strong lategame, she needs a per lvl scaleing or a passive effect on ult to boost her E later on.

Also, more sustain/survivabillity, stacking up effects(backloaded power rather than frontloaded), old hurricane for solid aoe dps but less singletarget, so they still are a strong consistent dps source in teamfights but don't cut down a single enemie that gets to their face as quickly.

With less raw consitent damage, one can afford to give them a bit more survivabillity or utillity, assasins could be balanced around not killing in a single rotation as they might actually survive for a second chance, bruisers could be tuned with a higher TTK as they might survive longer than a few secs in a teamfight. In short, when people no longer have to kill the adc instantly, adc can be allowed to not be as fragile alllowing them to possition more agressively at times, and helping with the issue with succesfull anticarries litteraly preventing the adc from playing the game.

However, i think this won't work if other classes aren't toughed aswell, some melee carries and dps mages have similar issues as current crit marksmen, and as mentioned above, if dps wasn't that huge, burst could be tuned around not killing in one rotation.

RanmaruSep 11, 20183 votes

what do you think the role is there for? Helping kill tanks

and how would you like to see it changed? STOP FUCKING HALF HEALTHING ME YOUR DPS

what would make it balanced in your perfect world? Adcs stop bursting me. And have power budgets instead of xayah dealing the same amount of damage yet having safety and things like kaisa to be removed.

do you not want them to be the AD CARRY? I want them to kill tanks not burst me.

do you not want them to do large amounts of high sustained damage? once you get so much sustained damage its just burst thats better burst

do you not want them to be hard scaling team fight winners? Idk i feel like not having to have half the game be all about them past 30~

what is it that you all find so bad about them? Bursting me. Basically all the game does is revolve around 30~

what do you want changed? Stop bursting me and stop making the entire gamea revolve around the,

DemainaNyxSep 12, 20183 votes

My opinion is that ADCs should do less burst damage, but good consistent damage. That said though, I don't know how you do that in this meta where a Zed can R, E, auto, and ignite to kill someone without using a single skillshot. All damage would need to be lowered or the damage would need to be moved to skillshots instead of undodgeable things in my opinion.

Skillshots should mean something, hitting them should be rewarded. ADCs generally just auto, so that auto shouldn't do half of someone's health. I also feel like ADCs should be rewarded for constantly autoing like Guinsoo's offers or Vayne's silver bolts, so that proper kiting is rewarded with more damage. And that they shouldn't be rewarded for not autoing like Stormrazor or Duskblade currently offers. Kai'sa passive is ok, but I wish it wouldn't stack on everyone at once so she can AOE nuke but instead worked like Vayne's in a sense where it only worked on one person at a time. Maybe so allies could proc it on other people, but she can only detonate on one person at a time and the detonate would remove all other stacks but does a small bit of damage or each detonate removes one stack of plasma for everyone else so she still has her runaan's synergy but takes a few extra autos to kill people.

I'm fine with different mechanics, like how MF, Draven, Jhin, and Caitlyn have that one auto that does a lot, but requires the player to work to get it. I do wish some were changed though, like that Draven needed to actually catch axes to build up damage or something, instead of just pressing Q W and running you down or Jhin abusing Stormrazor and Hail of Blades to out range pretty much every ADC while murdering them in 3 autos and running around like a Hecarim.

Personally I dislike Sheen on ADCs. Makes no sense to me that Ezreal misses his Q or Corki misses R and yet gets bonus damage on their auto while a Jinx or whoever is reliant on RNG to get bonus damage and it's completely out of their control. I'm fine with long range poke abilities, but missing the skill shouldn't reward them in my opinion. Additionally makes no sense to me that two identical champions with identical items and identical runes can result in different outcomes due to the RNG in crits.

The best way I can describe it is that ADC autos should maybe starts at 200 damage, but each subsequent auto does slightly more (like say 20 more damage), so that eventually they can do 400 an auto after a time. That way, they can tank shred over time, and also are a threat to ADCs and mages who miss position during a fight because of that build up damage.

That or reward ADCs like how Caitlyn works, where if she lands traps or net, she gets a burst of damage, or like Draven where his juggling makes him stronger. Both can be countered by making Draven drop an axe or by not walking into Caitlyn's traps, but it allows skill expression because they can 1v1 assassins/divers by utilizing their burst ability through good mechanics. Even Lucian to a degree has this, though I wish his passive only proced on actually hitting his abilities instead of just casting them in whatever direction he feels like. Caitlyn loses her net damage if she uses it to chase someone, where Lucian doesn't. But Caitlyn is rewarded for netting a target but so is Lucian if he uses it to escape. Considering the skills are similar, makes sense Lucian should either be rewarded for going towards enemies (fitting with the name of the ability) or hindered by running away with it, not both in my opinion.

I'm not sure how you would reward some champions, but Jinx might get extra damage on people she snares in her chompers or zaps. Or Ezreal gets more damage if he hits the same target with multiple Q's so his poke is more meaningful. I feel like Ashe repeatedly slowing someone should grant her more damage or maybe give her E some synergy that if she spots enemies with it, they take additional damage from her during the reveal time so it can be a scouting tool while not feeling useless in a teamfight. Xayah could maybe benefit from CC'ing people, giving her bonus attack speed or maybe lowering her E cooldown on successful snares. Sivir maybe is rewarded with cooldown off her ult or W for spellshielding things or if she gets an assist.

Kog'maw is iffy, because I don't want to reward his turret-ness. Sniping with his ult feels like it could be rewarded, but I don't know how without just benefiting his W. Maybe it takes time off his E or resets his ult stacks, but that might make AP Kog too strong. Maybe him autoing targets hit by his ult let's him omni-steal from them only. Again, I worry he'll just become jugger'Maw which I don't want, but it's hard to reward someone who's only niche is being turret essentially.

Tristana feels like she has a lot in her kit already, so not sure how to reward her since she doesn't really have a skillshot. Twitch falls into the same area where he has reset mechanics and his only skill shot is his W, which no one complains about. Vayne lacks skill shots except maybe her E stun, so maybe that could be rewarded. Quinn feels like the reward is already baked into her kit via her passive. Varus getting the active on his W sorta rewards him, though he might need some tweaking. Kalista sorta has her reward through Rend stacks reset, but I worry that with the stack damage I proposed that she would become almost OP since that's basically her thing is consistent hits than a big burst of damage.

Again, this is just a suggestion, I haven't even spent much time on it so I'm sure some of these things sound extremely overpowered. I'm just trying to throw out some ideas.

Vlada CutSep 11, 20182 votes

I don't hate adc's. I just want a lane that just isn't a MissFortune Draven and Lucian fiesta. ._.

saltranSep 11, 20181 votes

Relevant icon.

PD: Someone who has MF and Caitlyn as most played champs and Vayne as most killed champ every season.

Vlada CutSep 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Relevant icon.

PD: Someone who has MF and Caitlyn as most played champs and Vayne as most killed champ every season.

Ewh. An MF meta abuser. Get outta here! On the side note thanks for bringing genocide to World of Vayne's, maybe there are going to be less Vayne mains now. :V

saltranSep 13, 20181 votes

Meta abuser?

Nah, I was there playing crit MF on the ardent meta with old ER and I still play her now when she's strong.

Vlada CutSep 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Meta abuser?

Nah, I was there playing crit MF on the ardent meta with old ER and I still play her now when she's strong.

MF is still MF tho, especially her obnoxious Q's. REEEEEEEEEEEEE

saltranSep 13, 20181 votes

Killing with a Q bounce in lane is my drug, specially against a Sona, she dies with a breath

Vlada CutSep 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Killing with a Q bounce in lane is my drug, specially against a Sona, she dies with a breath

Or when Morg picks into MF and tried to use a magic shield vs a phyisical spell that crits when it bounces onto someone.

PANAGIA PARTHENASep 11, 20182 votes

I was always fine with adc's. Supports are what is really messed up in this game. And honestly this is a huge conversation.

OmegaNITROSep 11, 20182 votes

This thread is a really interesting read. The hyperbole and wildly differing ideas really go to show how misunderstood the role is by the people that hate it IMO.

JoeAnarchySep 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This thread is a really interesting read. The hyperbole and wildly differing ideas really go to show how misunderstood the role is by the people that hate it IMO.

yea that was sorta a reason i had for making it.. different people want them nerfed in different ways.. noone seems to agree on what they are there for.. everyone has a different idea of what the role should be doing.. i generally don't think the community actually knows what the role is meant to do..

BigBellBruteSep 11, 20182 votes

The role is bot. So make the bot lane as diverse as any other. But we can't have any creativity such as funneling mid marksman or mages in the bot lane. Can't have that.

NimblepawSep 11, 20182 votes

In my opinion, recent adcs have been very focused on dueling. Kaisa Xayah are perfect examples of this. I think an adc should be AA focused, with limited mobility, but ridiculous damage output. Perfect examples would be Ashe Varus Draven

Hemulen MagiSep 12, 20182 votes

I want every champion class to "support" their team in a unique way. Marksmen can soften up targets for their team by whittling down their health over time and applying debuffs to opponents which will ramp up the marksman's and their team's damage output. The average marksman power budget can be redistributed to be similar to a lot of mages, where marksmen on-hit resistance debuff effects, team buff effects, and vision abilities will be equivalent supportive utility to mages' higher average amounts of CC (keeping in mind that some marksmen offer plenty CC so there can be exceptions). In regards to damage output, marksmen should have similar total damage output to mages but more of it should be ramp-up damage vs a single target compared to mages' AOE damage that depends partly on targets crowding together. Some marksmen should do AOE (Jinx rockets, Trist bombs, Corki, etc.) and should do less single-target damage, while some mages should focus on single-target DPS - so there shouldn't even be a rule as far as damage distribution goes, just a general trend. I want different marksmen to offer different things and for them to have unique niche strengths instead of all uniqueness being overshadowed by lategame reliable damage output.

The following only applies to archetypal marksmen, so there would hopefully be many marksmen different than described below. For archetypal marksmen, I want their strengths to look something like this...

Scaling with game length: Similar to other ranged carries (mages) and less lategame focused. For earlygame, ranged is safer/easier to farm as than melee, so weak earlygame dueling does not need lategame compensation.

Damage output: Much less than current. The midgame front-loaded burst potential ( item 3147 item 3095 ) should be mostly killed for marksmen (looking at Quinn MissFortune ) and alternative items should be buffed. The lategame damage potential from stacking multiplicative glass-cannon damage should be nerfed, and item 3031 item 3124 should cost as much as item 3089 and should be encouraged as last-buy items. Overall gold income, especially shared gold from takedowns, could go up to make it easier for everyone to reach lategame.

Survivability: Much higher than current. Defensive and sustain carry items, like item 3026 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3161 item 3812 item 3072 , should have a better gold value on average than pure offense carry items, and the meta should be balanced so that the strongest meta marksmen will typically pick up at least 2-3 semi-defensive items before building specialized carry items (described below). Lifesteal should also be rebalanced so that it doesn't apply to crit bonus damage, especially since drain-tanking will be stronger on more durable marksmen. If a marksmen farms decently well and gets their durability items early on, they shouldn't be punished by assassins solo bursting them without much real counterplay in their personal control. They should be able to be killed in laning only as the result of a fair miscalculated fight or if they make a significant mistake such as being caught mid-lane by the enemy support's CC right as the enemy jungler flanks in from behind. No more <1.5 second assassinations from enemies popping out of stealth, unless the marksman decides to arrogantly build glass-cannon despite the cons outweighing the benefits.

Team-role/specialization: After laning, marksmen should be pushed to make a decision on specializing their build based on their team's needs.
I think that the strongest/most-reliable marksman specialization should be debuffing opponents in order to ramp-up their own DPS and to amplify ally DPS. I think this specialization should be catered to via new itemization and reworking existing itemization. I think that the Giant Slayer item could come back in a reworked form as item that builds into various debuff tools. item 3036 could exist as a specialized ranged equivalent of item 3071 , where autoattacking applies bonus armor debuff stacks and grants the marksman ramping-up attack speed. Something along the lines of an expensive (too expensive for a support) and slot-efficient auto-attack-stat-based item 3050 item that the marksman buys to provide themselves moderate offensive stats while providing great team utility with some sort of active effect could be good as long as it is strong enough to encourage even generally selfish players to buy it. item 3091 could be more slot-efficient to make it possible for any hybrid-damage marksmen to get it, especially if they have one or more AP allies, but the increased cost would have the downside of making it out of reach for off-meta support playstyles for supporting APCs (maybe it could get a mini MR shredding component). So a good final specialized build might look something like this = (survivability items and boots) + item 3036 (reworked) + item 3085 + [new ADC equivalent of item 3050 ] + item 3153 and/or item 3124

It should still be possible to specialize into crit damage instead, with something like item 3046 item 3094 item 3031 , but it should be made into a less attractive route overall unless you are playing one of the few marksmen designed to only function with a crit build, and those should be rarer than marksmen who work best with a supportive DPS build like described above.

For certain other marksmen, like KogMaw Kaisa Teemo , it should be encouraged to specialize into building hybrid or full ap-onhit with items like item 3115 item 3146 item 3124 item 3091 , which is already the case, but crit damage items shouldn't be desirable at all on this subset of marksmen.

Some marksmen should do well with item 3057 items as their niche. item 3042 could be improved to make it more attractive for those few marksmen and other potential users.

The main point is that lategame marksmen specialization should vary more by champion and situation, and the typical specialization for a large number of marksmen should be softening targets for their team. Even the most late-game-shifted, highest damage-output specialized marksmen should do much less damage than they currently do though, even if they build glass cannon and crit (which should usually be a bad decision). So the role in general would be shifted away from pure lategame damage output occupying their power budget.

KaìjuSep 12, 20182 votes

ADC players opinion. I want them to greatly increase attach speed and greatly lower raw damage. I think the best way to introduce more skill into the role would be to make it more about attacking a lot, rather than hard. Say ADC's don't crit anymore for 500 damage, but they get an attack speed cap at 3.5. Now they have to deal with needing mechanics to be able to pace their attacks and animations correctly. This puts them more on the path to killing objectives that don't force them to dodge, and worse at nuking squishes who should rightfully kill them.

On hit should be the name of the game for ADC, not crit.

BestPudgeNASep 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

what do you think the role is there for?

The role is called bot lane. Not ADC. Bot laners are just solo laners that are better in 2 v 2s in an ideal world.

and how would you like to see it changed?

I would like to see Marksman not so broken that they're picked 98% of the time and Bot lane players actually having to learn how to play League of Legends instead of just being required to understand how to stand in the best spot to auto people.

what would make it balanced in your perfect world? do you not want them to be the AD CARRY?

I would like the game post 20 mins to not revolved entirely around them in almost ever meta. Every mid-late game team fight is about 1 Can you kill the opposing ADC 2 if you can't can you protect your ADC long enough for him to kill the opposing front line.

do you not want them to be hard scaling team fight winners?

No this is the entire problem. It doesn't matter how well anyone else on the team does or doesn't if the ADC difference is big you simply lose unless you hardsnowball and win pre-20 mins.

OmegaNITROSep 11, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I would like to see Marksman not so broken that they're picked 98% of the time and Bot lane players actually having to learn how to play League of Legends instead of just being required to understand how to stand in the best spot to auto people.

What exactly does "learn how to play League of Legends" mean to you?

I would like the game post 20 mins to not revolved entirely around them in almost ever meta. Every mid-late game team fight is about 1 Can you kill the opposing ADC 2 if you can't can you protect your ADC long enough for him to kill the opposing front line.

So, early game when they have little to no solo agency at all is fine to you, but them being important late is bad?

Also, if you have to kill or peel for your carry, doesn't that make the game depend on you too?

No this is the entire problem. It doesn't matter how well anyone else on the team does or doesn't if the ADC difference is big you simply lose unless you hardsnowball and win pre-20 mins.

But if you hardsnowball and win pre-20, the ADC doesn't matter at all. Is that a problem too, or is it fine that they can't win a game early so long as they can't carry late either?

BestPudgeNASep 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So, early game when they have little to no solo agency at all is fine to you, but them being important late is bad?

ADCs have plenty of agency in the early game and there is a difference between being "important" and where they currently stand which being more important as a 2 item carry then a 3 item carry in mid/top/jg

Also, if you have to kill or peel for your carry, doesn't that make the game depend on you too?

In other words my job should be to suck the ADCs dick and because i'm sucking it means he depends on me and i should be happy with my role as ADC dick sucker.

But if you hardsnowball and win pre-20, the ADC doesn't matter at all. Is that a problem too, or is it fine that they can't win a game early so long as they can't carry late either?

Snowballing is always a team effort and the ADC is the best role to snowball since they won't get outscaled and bot lane takes towers and objectives quicker. Which in effect makes ADCs the best role in the early game too, but not the only role that matters.

OmegaNITROSep 11, 20182 votes

What exactly does "learn how to play League of Legends" mean to you?

{quoted}

ADCs have plenty of agency in the early game and there is a difference between being "important" and where they currently stand which being more important as a 2 item carry then a 3 item carry in mid/top/jg

Do they? They are only optimal in duo lanes, are highly dependent on gold and need supports to initiate or at least followup to fight in lane. How do they have "plenty of agency" early?

Also, what 2 item power spike are you claiming is a harder spike then what 3 item power spike? As an ADC, I'm interested to know.

In other words my job should be to suck the ADCs dick and because i'm sucking it means he depends on me and i should be happy with my role as ADC dick sucker.

More like "If you're a bruiser/assassin/diver, don't you win the teamfight by killing squishy carries with high damage before they do anything (ADC/APC)?"

"If you're a tank/juggernaut/healer, don't you win fights by making sure the squishy carries on your team survive longer than the squishy carries on theirs?"

"If you're a carry that isn't squishy, do you really think you should do more damage than a carry that is?"

Why do you think that the glass cannon that needs the team to survive shouldn't be the high priority target when they literally exist to do damage for the team? Why do you think protecting damage dealers isn't just as important a job, or that a team fight isn't a team effort?

Snowballing is always a team effort and the ADC is the best role to snowball since they won't get outscaled and bot lane takes towers and objectives quicker. Which in effect makes ADCs the best role i the early game too, but not the only role that matters.

So wait, only the ADC is important in teamfights, but snowballing, pushing your small advantages into bigger advantages is a team effort?

Also, outscaling which is trading early game advantages for larger late game advantage, is the opposite of snowballing. ADCs are the best at both? At the same time? How?

BestPudgeNASep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do they? They are only optimal in duo lanes, are highly dependent on gold and need supports to initiate or at least followup to fight in lane. How do they have "plenty of agency" early?

Because having agency doesn't mean never needing or wanting help. Agency means you have partial control and influence over the outcome.

Also, what 2 item power spike are you claiming is a harder spike then what 3 item power spike? As an ADC, I'm interested to know.

Every 2 item ADC is better then ever other 3 item power spike in the game when it comes to a teamfight.

More like "If you're a bruiser/assassin/diver, don't you win the teamfight by killing squishy carries with high damage before they do anything (ADC/APC)?"

Wrong more like because ADCs are so busted the other teams picks tanks/control mages and i can never dive the ADC so it's completely meaningless how far i get ahead if the game isn't over by 20 mins unless i have a completely busted kit that let's me do that see Vlad/akali

"If you're a tank/juggernaut/healer, don't you win fights by making sure the squishy carries on your team survive longer than the squishy carries on theirs?"

Except you don't it doesn't matter how good you engage/peel ect is. It's just completely meaningless unless the ADC are really close in skill which doesn't happen all that much. I can peel twice as good but if my AD autos 1/3 as much despite this it just doesn't fucking matter

"If you're a carry that isn't squishy, do you really think you should do more damage than a carry that is?"

What about if you want to play a carry that is squishy like a burst mage or a squishy fighter but you can't cause if you ever teamfight as good as an ADC. Why do you think 40 champs should be perma sidelined and another 40 should be forced to build tank even though it doesn't really fight what the champ wants to do/be like Olaf. Why do you think it's okay for ADC to completely dominate the "dps" portion of the game when they make up less then 1/3 of the DPS champs in the game?

So wait, only the ADC is important in teamfights, but snowballing, pushing your small advantages into bigger advantages is a team effort?

No. Any lane/role can lead a snowball. Only ADCs can truly dominate teamfights.

Also, outscaling which is trading early game advantages for larger late game advantage, is the opposite of snowballing. ADCs are the best at both? At the same time? How?

It's like you don't read what i typed but rather imagine i typed something else

OmegaNITROSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because having agency doesn't mean never needing or wanting help. Agency means you have partial control and influence over the outcome.

Of which the ADC has the least in lane out of all the roles, and the least across the map until late game, and even then is reliant on the protection of the team more than any other role to exert influence.

So they have little. Is that the same as "plenty" to you?

Every 2 item ADC is better then ever other 3 item power spike in the game when it comes to a teamfight.

[sg-miss-fortune]

Is that right? You're telling me

item 3031 item 3094

Is stronger than, say

item 3147 item 3142 item 3071

item 3040 item 3027 item 3135

Or even

item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 ?

I think you need to check your math.

Wrong more like because ADCs are so busted the other teams picks tanks/control mages and i can never dive the ADC so it's completely meaningless how far i get ahead if the game isn't over by 20 mins unless i have a completely busted kit that let's me do that see Vlad/akali

So ADCs are busted because the other non-ADC champions are better at peeling or zoning you than you are at picking the carry?

I see...

Except you don't it doesn't matter how good you engage/peel ect is. It's just completely meaningless unless the ADC are really close in skill which doesn't happen all that much. I can peel twice as good but if my AD autos 1/3 as much despite this it just doesn't fucking matter

So if I play Mundo, tank their burst, and chunk their carries allowing my backline to kill theirs while keeping their frontline busy, that all doesn't matter, huh?

Or I play Darius, peel and kill their assassin and then threaten their ADC allowing ours to free hit, that doesn't do anything huh?

I'm not even sure what game you're playing anymore.

What about if you want to play a carry that is squishy like a burst mage or a squishy fighter but you can't cause if you ever teamfight as good as an ADC. Why do you think 40 champs should be perma sidelined and another 40 should be forced to build tank even though it doesn't really fight what the champ wants to do/be like Olaf. Why do you think it's okay for ADC to completely dominate the "dps" portion of the game when they make up less then 1/3 of the DPS champs in the game?

But burst mages and fighters work fine in teamfights, so sure you can pick them...

Who did I ever say should be sidelined?

Olaf likes to be able to survive, he kind of runs at people and tanks with his face... you're suggesting he be able to do that while building full damage?

Completely dominate? Did you forget half of the classes in the game exist?

No. Any lane/role can lead a snowball. Only ADCs can truly dominate teamfights.

Except the ones they don't, like when the Irelia pops off 1v9, or the Orianna hits a 5 man ult, or the full build Yi presses R and Q after the team used their CC... or any number of other situations.

It's like you don't read what i typed but rather imagine i typed something else

"ADC is the best role to snowball since they won't get outscaled"

The fact that that isn't even true aside... you typed that verbatim.

[sg-lux-2]

BestPudgeNASep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Of which the ADC has the least in lane out of all the roles, and the least across the map until late game, and even then is reliant on the protection of the team more than any other role to exert influence.

Nah, the ADC has much more control over lane phase then the support does. The ADC controls the push of the lane. The support relies on the ADC just as much in a the fighting portion of the lane. Champs like Cait/Draven when good are completely and totally dominant when it comes to control over the map/lane. Bot lane has the dragon next too it and takes towers the quickest so it's literally the most important role on the map to have pressure in. It used to be Mid/JG that had the most influence in they lane phase but then they gutted early jungler pressure in 8.10 and nerfed early waveclear and roaming potential for mids.

Is that right? You're telling me

One it's item 3095 +Zeal item and in a team fight yes. ADCs are AS gated rather then CD gated and because of this if the ADC is allowed to auto the ADC will dish out more damage.

So ADCs are busted because the other non-ADC champions are better at peeling or zoning you than you are at picking the carry?

Yes, because if they're peeling for a mage it's okay because the mage damage can be dodged and CDs can be played around. The fighters damage can be kited CDs played around ect ect. the peel is only a problem when undodgeable ranged damage that is largely not CD gated is at play. Because of this it makes non-ranged non-cd gated damage so much more powerful then other forms of damage. Peel/CC ect are important parts of the game that without it the game wouldn't be fun/balanced at all, the game would be more fun/balanced not less if sustained undodgeable ranged DPS was toned down.

Or I play Darius, peel and kill their assassin and then threaten their ADC allowing ours to free hit, that doesn't do anything huh?

It does do something, but it doesn't matter 90% of the time if you lost the coin flip for better ADC.

Olaf likes to be able to survive, he kind of runs at people and tanks with his face... you're suggesting he be able to do that while building full damage?

Again it's like you imagined i typed someone different then what i actually typed.

OmegaNITROSep 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Nah, the ADC has much more control over lane phase then the support does. The ADC controls the push of the lane. The support relies on the ADC just as much in a the fighting portion of the lane. Champs like Cait/Draven when good are completely and totally dominant when it comes to control over the map/lane. Bot lane has the dragon next too it and takes towers the quickest so it's literally the most important role on the map to have pressure in. It used to be Mid/JG that had the most influence in they lane phase but then they gutted early jungler pressure in 8.10 and nerfed early waveclear and roaming potential for mids.

Yikes. First of all, ADCs generally have far less dueling potential before first back than Supports do, have to focus on CS where supports do not, and rely on supports for the majority of burst, sustain, or engage, depending on lane. The support also helps hard shove or freeze waves, even if not last hitting. So the support absolutely dictates the aggression of the lane more than the ADC in early game, and to say otherwise is just false.

And regardless of nerfs, mid still has the best roam potential of the 3 lanes, and junglers have multiple other options to dictate any of the other lanes, such as level 2 gank before 3 minutes, so just because mid/jg was nerfed doesn't mean they have less individual early game agency, and especially not less than the ADC, with their early game base stat nerfs and not being strong solo champs besides.

And bot lane is the most impactful AREA to pressure, not the most impactful ROLE.

You clearly don't understand ADC at all.

One it's +Zeal item and in a team fight yes. ADCs are AS gated rather then CD gated and because of this if the ADC is allowed to auto the ADC will dish out more damage.

Your points may be nonsense, but at least stand by them.

"Every 2 item ADC is better then ever other 3 item power spike in the game when it comes to a teamfight."

You said every, not just Stormrazor. And even then, you're still wrong, because not every teamfight is where the enemy ADC is allowed to free hit for no reason and your entire team does nothing about it for no reason.

Yes, because if they're peeling for a mage it's okay because the mage damage can be dodged and CDs can be played around.

"Dodged" Annie Malzahar Vladimir

"CDs played around" Kassadin Azir Zoe

The fighters damage can be kited CDs played around ect ect.

The Marksmen damage you can position yourself out of marksmen range, play around CDs and then dive them, etc.

Acting like ADCs don't have just as much counterplay when they need other champs to stay alive is just baffling.

the peel is only a problem when undodgeable ranged damage that is largely not CD gated is at play. Because of this it makes non-ranged non-cd gated damage so much more powerful then other forms of damage. Peel/CC ect are important parts of the game that without it the game wouldn't be fun/balanced at all, the game would be more fun/balanced not less if sustained undodgeable ranged DPS was toned down.

Yeah so then tanks and juggernauts can go completely unchecked, and stuff like MasterYi Yasuo Irelia Jax Tryndamere Gangplank can go on doing obscene damage in comparison, "cause their CDs can be played around", right?

Sounds really balanced...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

It does do something, but it doesn't matter 90% of the time if you lost the coin flip for better ADC.

So, camp their ADC as a jungler early game and the "better ADC" is useless? Get your burst mage or assassin fed so they can one shot the ADC?

Or better yet, my favorite - learn the role yourself and get good at it if you think it's so game defining. And then you can see for yourself real quick how helpless you are when just ONE of your teammates isn't doing their job.

All an ADC is is the DPS. It takes more than that to win in this game if the players know what they're doing.

Again it's like you imagined i typed someone different then what i actually typed.

Please.

"...should be forced to build tank even though it doesn't really fight what the champ wants to do/be like Olaf."

Your cognitive dissonance is amazing, but do stop pretending you didn't write things I'm directly quoting.

jocomotionSep 11, 20181 votes

1: ADC Role consists of damage focused champions who can quickly take out any champion, monster, or structure they focus. They provide reliable consistent damage as long as they are given freedom to.

2: Id like ADC’s to transition more smoothly into other roles and for some of them to have a better defensive base stats/playstyles

3: #2 but they’re not too frustrating to play against during laning.

4: Honestly having new champions in the ADC role is interesting, so while it’s not Necessary I don’t really care.

5: I’m fine with high consistent damage, but not consistent burst damage.

6: Actually no, SOME yes definitely, but all ADC’s? No. Some I’d rather have them be early to mid game dominant and fall off, some should be good at all stages, but never great. And other non ADC champs should have that late game spotlight too.

7: unfun to play, I don’t hate the role so much as playing with them. Too squishy, I can never get in position to deal consistent damage and unless I’m Quinn I can’t take them in any other lane.

8: more ADC’s in other lanes, difference in ADC playstyles, more reliable with dealing consistent damage, less burst.

Crimson ZeppelinSep 12, 20181 votes

I don't hate adcs. i just hate the people playing adcs and be a colossal asshole with the mindset of "if I do not carry/win lane the game is over, no other lanes matter."

GripaAviaraSep 12, 20181 votes

But that was true in the past, before the marksman changes

RaoulSep 12, 20181 votes

Sustained DPS is fine.

Burst per second is NOT fine!

Them outdamaging melee DPS champions while being save is NOT fine.

Them getting full benefits from Lifesteal is NOT fine.

Ranged ADCs should deal sustained damage per second, not get crit bursts, these should be melee only, and only half of the lifesteal benefits. They are ranged, that is already an advantage, they dont need to burst like a mage with every Autoattack!

Right now melee DPS has no place in this game, because ranged DPS simply outclasses them in everything. They do more damage, they are safer since they dont have to be in melee range, they can kite...

GripaAviaraSep 13, 20181 votes

I don't hate ADC i hate that game breaking sob veigar and all players that abuse him

creatureplexApr 13, 20191 votes

I'm coming back and as an adc main these are things I want and things I don't.

I don't want to one shot Shit that's not my job.

I don't want to be bursted down by a fucking tank.

I dont want to play with or against an assassin bruiser or a fucking mage win or lose don't care you have 3 other lane jungle places to be go there.

Things I want I want to be killed by an assassin or mage that's their job kill me its my job not to be caught and my teams job to make it hard on them.

I want to do the most damage end game by about 20 to 25 minutes help push objectives and win team fights.

Split note stop trying to lower how long a game lasts because lcs players are lazy as fuck and just want their pay check.

My favorite game 53 minute match where we had 9 kills they had 7 because we went back and forth it was hard to get a kill nobody snowballed. We won but at the end no complaints no you suck or flaming we all said good game and added each other as friends afterwards.

The game was fun because it was challenging we were all engaged we had several team fights but no team had a clear advantage. Better matchmaking formula couldn't hurt either.

I think if riot focus on making the average game around 30 to 45 minutes you'll have a better game and product people will like.

So nerf overall damage make towers dragon baron Herald hard and give time to contest. Give the losing team a chance to come back in a game not oh were winning push and win bullshit we see now. Where most of the champions don't even get past 15 minutes or 3 items. Shit I don't even think most champions even try to counter until the 4th item anyways.....

I don't want to be a 1 v 5 hero. Just like I don't want assassins to merc my whole team even though he got no kills in laning phase.

I have a brilliant idea let's stop trying to change the game and focus on how we can make the current meta better and more fun for all players.

Assasins let them do their job burst down squishes and retreat reset and try again.

Bruisers initiate force a team fight or objective control.

Tanks get in their force the team to focus you and force them to stop you from getting and separating their carries.

Supports guard your team protect them.....underlining keep an eye on pesky assassins getting to your carries.

Mages unload on enemy team force enemy bruisers and tanks to grab some magic resist. Then get some magic penetration push waves and waveclear.

Marksman that's me be engaged but not be an easy target use range push towers. And do damage.

Let's stop seeking diversity in lane and start trying to focus on balancing champions on roles rather than making any champion going anywhere. That'll just throw away balance.

Wouldn't it be much easier to balance if you weren't so focus on trying to allow those select few players that want to play swain at bot lane to be happy?

Oh and one last thing stop basing balancing decisions off of the less than 10 percent of players that are diamond and above that collectively splits league of legends into noobville and premier league.