Graves is not a healthy champion IMO

Gladiore67·Sep 29, 2016·97 votes·3,979 views

Am i the only one that sees a issue with graves? Someone who can do more damage then adcs has good sustained damage amazing burst a situational blind mobility and FREE tankiness? I don't understand how graves can be balanced with all that in a kit. For one hes a adc that has burst and super mr and armor gain from dashing which is on a short cd. He can right click you twice mid game to delete you if your a squishy and hes even a bit ahead and if he aa's you twice you flash away he'll just hit his super long range ult to finish you off =\ and they are trying to nerf his burst instead of the real problem which is the tankiness he can get as a mobile burst/sustained damage short range adc. Am i the only one that sees a problem with this?

77 Comments

5000000000000000Sep 29, 201637 votes

Well, he stopped smoking so he's healthy. sorry, obligatory.

R2D20Sep 29, 20161 votes

beat me to it.

DengedenSep 29, 201616 votes

Puts on dangerously broken record

His skillshots are unreliable Ar/Mr mean less the longer the game goes on His range sucks His AAs rely on having at least one crit item

Meep ManSep 30, 20161 votes

My only issue is that his entire kit is basically a huge "@$%# you" to Melee champions for the first 25 minutes of the game at least.

Akali is SO HOTSep 30, 20162 votes

His range doesn't matter when he can face tank your team with 120 armor and magic resist while also being a massive drain tank because he has warlords. His damage with his auto attacks is already insane because he can go full glass cannon and still be a bruiser and his ult does a million damage to finish you off. Laning against him as a melee is complete aids. Not even Irelia can compete against him and she's the staple destroyer of ranged champions.

MhihnjSep 30, 20161 votes

Didn't they nerf Graves E bonus resistances or was that reverted?

HazyCloud7Sep 30, 20161 votes

reverted

NuparuSep 30, 20161 votes

I'll give that Graves is fucking busted right now but currently warlords isn't even good on him, it's SotA and Thunderlords that are common pickups.

Laning against Graves is a pain in the ass because he's basically a fucking Darius who traded true damage and bleed for more resistances and a gapcloser - he does a shit ton of damage and beats any melee in the game. The only issue is when he falls behind, he really falls behind. There's not much to do there except camp him.

Also, PD + his E + red smite makes him unbeatable in duels past 3rd item or so unless you're way ahead of him. That's the obnoxious part.

aspects1Sep 29, 201615 votes

hes not really an adc, his sustained damage isnt really on par with any adc's

EvewynnSep 29, 20161 votes

You don't need sustained damage if everything dies in one combo. And he can destroy objectives as fast (if not faster) than most ADCs as well.

Ariel the CruelSep 30, 20165 votes

You don't need sustained damage if everything dies in one Crit.

Jhin Fixed.

TyroneWatermelonSep 29, 201612 votes

We don't give a shit-Riot games 2016

KeevalroySep 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

We don't give a shit-Riot games 2016

Which coincidentally seems to be their motto for season 6. Hopefully it doesn't continue to season 7.

CobaltTheMadMageSep 29, 201611 votes

His whole concept is that he deals metric craploads of damage but only in short bursts and at short range.

TheSingularitySep 29, 20166 votes

That doesn't mean he should out live tanks in team fights and never have a weak phase. He crushes eveyone early, wrecks team fights mid game and is a bigger back line threat than pre rework kassadin late game

RalanrSep 29, 20161 votes

He's a marksman. BT is a common marksman item. Of course he's going to outlive tanks.

ThatHaleStateSep 29, 20165 votes

Try item 3812 , even better than BT

DavarrilSep 30, 20161 votes

He isn't a marksman in the typical sense. And you're an idiot if you build BT on Graves.

WheatloafSep 29, 20163 votes

But that doesn't necessarily mean he's unhealthy; he could just be OP.

love godSep 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't mean he should out live tanks in team fights and never have a weak phase. He crushes eveyone early, wrecks team fights mid game and is a bigger back line threat than pre rework kassadin late game

"Never has a weak phase" Graves' winrate drops below 50% after 30 minutes. Is that not a "weak phase"?

FantasySniperSep 30, 20163 votes

Graves whole thing is that he's able to finish games fast, though. In general, most games don't last longer than 35 minutes, but when Graves is in them, you have even less of a chance of making it to that minute mark.

Hayaishi2Sep 29, 20169 votes

He needs tankyness because he is fighting in your face. I believe his problem is that he has a lot of free damage in his kit.

ModAcademy KaynSep 29, 20165 votes

He's an ADC who needs to be in Melee range to do Max Damage. How is that Free?

Hayaishi2Sep 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ENK3JxRV,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-09-29T06:51:16.327+0000)

He's an ADC who needs to be in Melee range to do Max Damage. How is that Free?

Because he isn't building as many damage items as he should, he does more damage than he should early/mid game,

ModAcademy KaynSep 29, 20165 votes

That Drain Tank build Graves has is a whole lot weaker than his actual Crit build, due to the changes Riot made a while back. And Graves isn't a normal marksmen, so why should he follow the same power curve as other ADCs do?

TheSingularitySep 29, 20161 votes

Vayne and twitch are both similar range adcs to graves... one of which has next to no mobility and neither of them can abuse life steal like graves can.

Where're twitch's free tank stats? Where's his dash? Cos his ult is barely on even footing with graves' autos and q. And that's if he lives long enough to use it.

He has to be in your face you say? Well so does just about every diver in the game. And none of them can restore their hp bar with 2 autos.

JackMcSnipeyzSep 29, 20165 votes

Similar range? Both have 525 twitch has the highest range with his ult AND piercing shots. Vayne has invisibility extra damage and just as much mobility from Q and ult + a stun/self peel. Late game twitch /vayne will win against graves unless they let him get in their face, which is their fault.

TheSingularitySep 29, 20161 votes

Twitch's range relies on him actually having that ult. Whilst graves' out ranges twitch ult at every rank and has a lower cooldown max rank. By that point graves probs has cdr anyway. And unlike graves who doesn't have a weak phase, needs to be focused by an entire team while constantly re-positioning, gaining mr/armour and healing like vlad 2.0......twitch can be popped by just about anything, has a half decent lane phase, is highly vulnerable late game, synergises horridly with life steal and has one chance to position himself well.

One on one Twitch would be dead before ever having the time to pop a fully stacked e against lategame graves. And twitch, an immobile adc is at fault for "[letting]" the graves with what is practically a yasuo E get in his face? That's like saying a vlad is at fault for taking physical dmg and getting grievously wounded in a team fight.

Vayne, again can be popped, her cc is limited to one person and one person only while her w encourages vayne to focus targets one by one....as opposed to graves who deals just as much dmg but in splash, has a multi target blind/slow field, his free tank stats and still synergises like a god with life steal

JackMcSnipeyzSep 29, 20164 votes

You're exaggerating waaaayyy too much, yes twitch HUGH range is reliant on his ult, but like i said EVERY ADC OUTRANGES GRAVES! twitch isnt even on the lowest side with 525 range, a 100 more than graves, so no he never outranges him.

Graves also has a weak phase - late game, watch the statistics and the huge winrate drop At 30 minute, which is when twitch and vayne shine.

Graves doesnt have yasuo's E, he refreshes the cooldown by hitting a champion, if you dont let him get in your face he isnt gonna get 120 armor/mr

Serioulsy, graves has many strengths, but ADC busting isnt one of them, literally every adc can kite graves or poke him freely at range, which is why graves isnt popular botlane choice.

TheSingularitySep 30, 20161 votes

You're wrong I'm not exaggerating at all.

I am way way way way waaaaaaaaay over freakin exaggerating. Simply because I wanted to keep the discussion rolling so that I'd have a good distraction from the stress of my impending exams XD

And I thank you all greatly for providing one! <3 you all :D

JackMcSnipeyzSep 30, 20162 votes

No problem! Hope you pass your exams. Good luck!

boss10000Sep 29, 20164 votes

He is just dumb as a concept, he does what a melee carry is meant to do, but he has:

*More Damage

*More Range

*More Tankiness

He literally makes all melee carries obsolete if you think about it, due to him having all there pro's but barely any of there weaknesses.

Honestly if it wasn't for the fact i find his Q annoying as hell to use i would abuse the shit out of him.

Also someone tell me why on earth can graves get the same armour and MR as a Rammus? (120)

NuparuSep 30, 20161 votes

to be fair rammus gets his instant cast graves has to ramp up for it

the primary issue with graves vs most other melee carries is he needs to ramp up survivability in a fight, or else he does die relatively quickly because one E is only 30 armor/MR

pick something like viktor or whatever into him and instantly blow his ass up into china in a teamfight or ban him idk

AstôlfoSep 29, 20164 votes

'o-p-i-n-i-o-n' is a weird way to spell 'fact'.

Velzard of KozSep 29, 20163 votes

Am i the only one that sees a issue with graves?

Yes you are the only one. There isn't like 30 different topics about this already. This happens everytime someone discovers upvotemine. Expect suddenly 300 topics about it. For several months or weeks it was silent and now that someone criticised recent Graves PBE changes 300 topics about Graves. He's annoying yop but seriously can't we focus it in one huge and well upvoted thread?

KeevalroySep 29, 20163 votes

This...is news?

https://media.giphy.com/media/vh9isNb4S2Spa/giphy.gif

Brimaz The KingSep 29, 20162 votes

His power lvl is over 9,000!

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20162 votes

He falls off late game. Check his win rates as the game goes on. They tend to plummet.

DogshítPlayerSep 29, 20162 votes

hes not really an adc anymore

TwinkieProSep 29, 20162 votes

The sad thing is that he does more damage in melee range than other melees. That's the real problem as at level 18, it can literally do 200% of his AD. No melee can do that and they still have to close the gap on him.

RivuoSep 29, 20161 votes

id honestly rather fight graves than cancer teemo or zac.

Teemo just hit me for 1.1k blinding dart when i was sej. i had 140 MR

dangopeeSep 29, 20164 votes

So he had over 2000 AP? You are lying.

DarkwindSep 29, 20162 votes

Luden's exists. He'd only need 823 AP to do that. Perfectly plausible with blue buff.

Lady HammerlockSep 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Luden's exists. He'd only need 823 AP to do that. Perfectly plausible with blue buff.

Some theory crafting the only way that would've been possible is if teemo had item 3135 item 3001 item 3020 item 3151 the last few items and a couple of magic pen runes so he would have done something that was pretty close to true damage

RivuoSep 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Luden's exists. He'd only need 823 AP to do that. Perfectly plausible with blue buff.

^. He had void staff zerker greaves ludens liandrys and thunderlords. + i cant remember

One blinding dart made me go from 3.6k health to 2.5k. I remember because he shot me and i Q'd away as Sej over the wall and i was suddenly like 30% lower

YambrinZSep 30, 20161 votes

Yeah because old Graves was so balanced. Im sure this thread would read "Why does Graves do so much burst damage while being so tanky" if it was made before his changes.....of all champions to make a complaint thread about, and you choose Graves?

morris1Sep 30, 20161 votes

In other news, water is wet.

Alamo JackSep 30, 20161 votes

His E mechanics are what allow him to build full damage and have incredible burst while still being very tanky and mobile. But if they gut his E he would become worthless.

I think the problem is that he has an extremely safe jungle. He clears very fast, sustains well, and has a strong early game. His ganking is probably his weakest spot but it's irrelevant considering he can farm fast enough to stay ahead, and he shines at counterganks. This is a problem because Graves is extremely strong when ahead, especially mid game, and it's so easy to get there.

On the other hand, when a Graves does get behind, he feels pretty underwhelming. Cause now you have a champ with not enough damage to do anything and no utility for the team.

I think they need to find a good balance for graves in regards to his jungling ability. At least in the early game.

LuggSep 30, 20161 votes

Graves is a pretty one-dimensional champion. All he really brings to the table is burst damage. He has a low attack range and very little utility at all.

I think the latest nerf to him will put him in a healthy area.