Idk why you guys are so in love with coin pumping out bills, but enough is enough.
What is the point of gold gen items above all things? Pumping out gold.
Why is the least risky item to use the undisputed champ at the primary reason we buy gold items? No other nerf to this or buff to STE is fixing the issue. Stop beating around the bush.
RiotRiot MapleNectar19 votesI think a lot of this comes down to the perception of how much more gold you feel coin is actually giving you versus how much it actually gives in comparison to other support items. When you are collecting gold from ancient coin, there's far more visible ceremony that both the holder and the opponent can see.
For the STE line I think the perception that it gives far less gold comes down to a few points.
I have a graph shows the gold gained from each of the support item lines that I'll link here, but first I want you guys to try to;
DrCyanide3 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:42:39.865+0000)
you hear a little %%%%%
14 day ban for you.
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:42:39.865+0000)
- Rank the support items based on your perception of which gives the most gold
- Take a stab at guessing what the gold differential between them is.
I actually see these differences in my games all the time because I can hover over one item and then the other.
Spellthief tends to peter out around 1500, Targon's can go up to 2000 and Coin gets around 2500.
Of course, the data you're probably planning on showing is for Plat+ games. Never mind that the lower elos don't have as much ability to punish the lower skilled item user.
Linna Excel2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:42:39.865+0000)
I have a graph shows the gold gained from each of the support item lines that I'll link here, but first I want you guys to try to;
- Rank the support items based on your perception of which gives the most gold
- Take a stab at guessing what the gold differential between them is.
I'm guessing the spellthief's line is best if you make full use of it, relic shield isn't that far off, and coin is the worst.
Mysticman898 votesOo, challenges!
Coin>STE>>relic shield, with coin being super close to STE but relic lagging a bit further behind, somewhat made up for due to the value of relic healing.
I might suggest that the gold gained during laning phase is a different and arguably more important statistic than overall gold gains over the course of the game though, so it'd be interesting to hear if the rankings change based on which of those situations you look at.
chipndip14 votesDoes that graph include the gold gained for kills and assists on coin? I see Rioters talk about how coin doesn't offer that much more than the other lines, but those claims constantly run counter to my experience unless I feed. So if the comparison is being made, wouldn't it be best to compare the gold gained by winning/losing coin games vs. comparable STE games, rather than just unfiltered averages? Of course if I win with STE, I'll have more gold than if I lost since I have more freedom to get more gold, right? Something needs to properly explain why Rioters can make this claim about the gold gen of these items when I don't see STE users running around with 2.5k+ gold on their item in comparison to me.
On top of point 1, if we're just overreacting to anecdotal evidence and perceived gold gain, why is the pro scene completely wrapped around gaining gold super fast with coin + gold runes? If STE gave the fastest gold, they'd just AA each other with STE as aggressively as possible while using gold runes, right? Hell, Lulu has like 650 range spells to use, herself.
As for answering the question: No doubt, I think coin makes the most gold, due to its consistency. Spellthief's should make the least since you can't use it while you aren't fighting champions, so its gold gain decreases after laning and all that jazz. As far as average differentials, I'd assume coin gets at least around 500 gold on STE, give or take 100 gold, assuming coin gets near 2k and STE gets 1.5k (which is kind of generous to STE if you ask me).
Abyssphere2 votesYou guys have already said that the gold income items are quite close to each other in reality so I'll rank them as Coin > STE > Relic with a very small difference between all of them, biggest between STE and Relic. However, for laning phase income I'm going with the same thing but with Coin miles ahead of the other options, and I feel that's the important part that Rioters aren't talking about. Even if Coin is roughly equal with the others at 40 minutes, if it massively outperforms them at 10 minutes then that's still a huge deal.
ModThe Djinn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:42:39.865+0000)
I think a lot of this comes down to the perception of how much more gold you feel coin is actually giving you versus how much it actually gives in comparison to other support items. When you are collecting gold from ancient coin, there's far more visible ceremony that both the holder and the opponent can see.
- I walk up to a coin and it jumps to my champion
- you hear a little klink..tried to spell that with a c but it got censored
- You see the +25/+40 pop up above the holders head.
For the STE line I think the perception that it gives less gold comes down to a few points.
- When you proc the charges the gold value is broken up into smaller values 8/15 per target, as opposed to 25/40 from one coin
- The gold gained displays over the enemy as opposed to the support - harder to attribute where the gold is going.
- There's a lot of additional noise that can cause you to miss the fact this was even proced. When harassing in lane phase you pay attention to it, but in fights you're caring about killing, not the little yellow numbers popping up over their heads.
I have a graph shows the gold gained from each of the support item lines that I'll link here, but first I want you guys to try to;
- Rank the support items based on your perception of which gives the most gold
- Take a stab at guessing what the gold differential between them is.
Relic Shield is 7.5 gold per 10 seconds. Targon's Brace is 9.4 gold per 10 seconds, if used on the most valuable minions. This is pre-20 minutes, after which it jumps to 12.2 per 10 until 35 minutes, and 18.7 per 10 at 35 minutes.
Spellthief's Edge is 24 every 30 seconds, up to 45 per 30 seconds with Frostfang.
Ancient Coin is hard to calculate, as I'm not sure of the exact rate of coins dropping. That said, it's 25 gold per coin for the Ancient Coin, and 40 gold for Nomad's.
Of the base items, assuming optimal play and 90 second intervals (to account for a single siege minion somewhere in the wave), Spellthief's is 72/90, Relic Shield is 67.5/90, and Ancient Coin is at minimum 25/90. My guess is that in three waves you've gotten between 1 and 2 other gold coins, so Ancient Coin is likely at 50/90 or 75/90, meaning that on average its 62.5/90 for gold generation.
In ideal play, Ancient Coin seems like a gamble between slightly better or significantly worse, with less durability and tankiness to back it up.
Non-optimal play drops the others far more though. I'm not sure how frequently this happens, of course.
RiotRiot MapleNectar9 votesWhoops, forgot to pull the table for this before I left for the weekend, so here we are!
So most of you guessed correctly in that the order goes Coin > STE > Relic shield as you can see in the top graph, but the biggest difference you can see is the amount of avg gold differential you see by the 8-10 minute mark. At that period, both STE AND relic are neck in neck, with coin quickly getting reaching ~100 gold differential. As the game goes on, you see that 100 gold difference between Coin/STE remain constant, while Relic shield drops off quite substantially (the number of times I have 4 procs ready late game and my team just clears the whole wave in front of me is clearly what accounts for this). On the bottom graph you can see that the std for coin fluctuates a lot once you get into the later stages of the game (38 min > beyond). Those spikes are likely what causes you to see games with screenshots of gold from coin that seem ludicrous, but are likely from games that get super bloody once you start entering frequent team fights and the supports on the winning team are collecting an additional 40-200 gold in a fight where 1-5 of their opponents die.
Interestingly, you don't tend to see that Relic shield users are petitioning for that line to give more gold, and that's likely due to a few factors. One which I alluded to above is more along the lines of the ceremony for the gold collection, the second is the value of the stats the item actually gives you. Coin in comparison to STE and relic lines is quite inferior in terms of combat stats, but what it does let you do, and what we've seen in pro play when optimized around, is let you hit your power spikes earlier due to the early game gold differential between coin and other two lines. Those choices come at cost though if you're opting into things like an early Ardent Rush. You'll have far less vision on the map because you forgo sight stone and be fare more susceptible to ganks / agro play from your opponent. Now, I'm less happy that the only reason you might opt into that style is to get 1 single item, I'd personally prefer that you felt you had multiple options to hit an early power spike if you wanted to, but that's a longer and more serious investigation than I can go into on this post.
Pro play tends to skew player perception over what is optimal quite heavily, so we need to be careful about balancing/designing around what is actually to strong versus what just appears to be too strong. We haven't nerfed the gold gain on coin for months, and that's been a deliberate decision. That being said we've been talking about some changes that could be made to how they coins drop and maybe some tweaks to the passive, but in general the fairness between these items is a lot closer than I think people give them credit for.
**Oh, and on the note of how player perception can be altered based on pro play, this is a graph that highlights the purchase rates of relic shield on marksman before we nerfed ardent on 7.19, on 7.19, and when the group stages of World's kicked off. https://imgur.com/rQMWq3F
This is a trend we see quite regularly over a variety of metrics, and can be cause for concern / can point to a problem. Other times it's more to do with perception which can be far harder to act on.
Hopefully this was informative, and sorry it took so long for me to get back to this!
Emelie Cauchemar3 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a00080000,timestamp=2017-10-23T22:08:15.143+0000)
Whoops, forgot to pull the table for this before I left for the weekend, so here we are!
Now, can you show a graph of what happens to the champs that lose lane horribly while using 
+ 
vs 
I'm 90% the coin will always come out ahead from a losing lane perspective compared to the other two. Additionally, there's no reason to take relic shield when your ADC already does it for you.
RiotRiot MapleNectar3 votesThat data would be pretty hard to pull, and our data bro is currently neck deep in runes reforged stuff. Without having data though I'd be willing to bet that you're correct in that will always come out ahead of the other two, but judging by both the averages, and the std in the graph I'd expect it's not by much. If you're losing your lane it means you're likely getting pushed into turret so farming up your is still quite doable, same with being able to harass the enemy to get procs when they're trying to damage your turret.
Apex Support3 votesInfact Having a relic shield is a huge help when you are losing your lane. With relic shield you can safe the farms that your adc is going to loss under turret really easy.
Spideraxe2 votesReally interesting graph, I'd love to see more similar in the future
ModKnightsKemplar4 votesI would argue that the gold game for supports is non-optimal, but I had the impression that you designers already kind of know that.
As a frequent Taric player, I am a little annoyed at relic shield's problems in the late game, but it's so much better than the old system that it almost feels bad to complain about it. We may not be clamoring for more change, but as for me, that's more of a willingness to deal with some frustration rather than opt into an even worse system, potentially.
I would like to see gold for supports addressed more comprehensively in the future, but I have to admit that it's pretty darn good right now. It also make that differential easier to swallow, in a way, when it's my teammates who keep me from getting my stacks used up.
RiotRiot MapleNectar8 votesOh we're definitely aware of the gold game for supports being non-optimal, finding the solution to it though is a bit trickier unfortunately. Do you just put power in the kits? Do you make the items more efficient? Do you increase gold income for supports? Do you change the warding system so supports aren't the only people doing it (already done). There's a plethora of directions that we can go, but it's finding the right one that isn't just "change all of the supports kits to be exciting, satisfying, and have an impact on the game". That's certainly the most appealing option to me personally, but there's also a ton of cost / risk in going down that route as well.
On the relic shield note...I wonder if we just made it so that minion kills that happened around you after 35 miuntes or something automatically proced fotm charges. That's a bit... ham fisted, but it's a frustration point that might be nice to smooth out a bit. That's just me thinking though, not necessarily something that'd be implemented
Done253 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a0008000000030000,timestamp=2017-10-23T22:33:15.465+0000)
Oh we're definitely aware of the gold game for supports being non-optimal, finding the solution to it though is a bit trickier unfortunately. Do you just put power in the kits? Do you make the items more efficient? Do you increase gold income for supports? Do you change the warding system so supports aren't the only people doing it (already done). There's a plethora of directions that we can go, but it's finding the right one that isn't just "change all of the supports kits to be exciting, satisfying, and have an impact on the game". That's certainly the most appealing option to me personally, but there's also a ton of cost / risk in going down that route as well.
On the relic shield note...I wonder if we just made it so that minion kills that happened around you after 35 miuntes or something automatically proced fotm charges. That's a bit... ham fisted, but it's a frustration point that might be nice to smooth out a bit. That's just me thinking though, not necessarily something that'd be implemented
Personally I think the "support" position needs to be given an equal amount of gold to everyone else and then balanced accordingly, with power shifted into kit scaling vs a hard focus on items being powerful.
"But Done, what if you get AP hyper carries like Annie who go support bot and just enjoy all the no effort gold?" Then the enemy will have to find someone else to make up for the lack of Janna shield/Soraka healing utility.
Wardens and Enchanters shouldn't be seen as "lesser" champions. It's just not healthy. Isn't that why Riot had to forcibly implement Fill? You know, because people were getting 20~40 min wait times due to no one wanting to play the ~~slave ~~ support position? Well, people other than me anyways. I played Support so I had 4 second wait times. It was just like queuing up for a dungeon finder in literally almost every mmo ever. But I digress.
The gold items, in order of which item needs help the most to least, should be re-balanced for:
Relic line -> Wardens like Ali/Taric/Braum. Something really needs to be done about sitting at max stacks due to your afk farming team obliterating waves before you can even get near them. This item needs the most help by far.
Spell line -> Aggressive Enchanters like Sona/Lux/Morgana. Pretty good spot. Maybe a larger stack pool upon last upgrade for when there are no nearby enemy champs or towers. Perhaps letting dragon/herald/baron proc stacks since they're objectives?
Coin line -> Defensive Enchanters like Nami/Janna/Soraka. By far the best gold item due to extra gold from assists. It's only let down by its sheer slot inefficiency come late game. Perhaps convert the hp regen into mana regen for Chalice/Unholy Grail to use? Heck, since we're losing Windspeaker, why not toss +10% Heal power on there instead? That gives it something to make it stand out other than "I give lots of gold".
PS. Seriously. I will happily pay another 300 gold for +10% healing power.
GinoSoldier2 votesThis. I entirely agree with you. A team with 5 players should not require one player to gimp himself in favor of others.
Part of the solution, i believe, is to make the entire vision system based on an expanded Trinket system, and to remove both Sightstone and Control wards, which would be incorporated into the expanded trinket system.
As for the system itself; I would recommend allowing all players to choose two trinkets, one which detects in various possible ways depending on which trinkets you use (Control ward?, localized true sight, current detection, etc.), and the other which puts down vision, with more options than we currently have.
That way supports can directly go and build what they need instead of delaying their champion's needs to buy wards. It also pushes the warding responsibility to be equally shared across all teammates.
HalcyonDweller2 votesI wonder if it would work to change the gold system so that any champion simply gets gold for being near dying enemy minions? Perhaps the gold collection quest from Ancient Coin could simply be made available to everyone, leaving room for more flexible starting item choices for supports.
What about that would work well?
What potential pitfalls could it have?
RiotRiot MapleNectar7 votesOff the top of my head one of the things that this would do is severely undervalue the importance of being good at last hitting. If you got gold just for being near a creep that dies, the skill test of knowing how to last hit well becomes far less valuable. This bleeds into things like being able to zone the enemy off of their creeps, or baiting them into last hits. What we'd likely see is far more passive lanes across the board as the risk reward for moving forward and last hitting is lesser given that you might get harassed for moving up, whereas sitting back gets you x amount of the income stream for far less cost. As an example, if we were to do this I'd expect we'd be very likely to see Teemo's winrate plummet as a result.
Things of it that would work well is doing better at normalizing gold income across roles making it easier to balance things like the item system, but I'm not sure the costs are worth it. Putting it on a mastery or item means that it's there for the people who need it, but giving it everywhere would get pretty scary imo.
It's a neat thought experiment though!
HalcyonDweller3 votesThanks for engaging in it with me :) I really appreciate the opportunity to hear your thoughts on the subject!
ModThe Djinn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMqpe7dX,comment-id=000a0008000000030000,timestamp=2017-10-23T22:33:15.465+0000)Do you just put power in the kits?
Almost certainly not, since then you'd have to mass-rework if the gold generation ever shifted, and solo-lane viable supports (or off-supports) like Lulu, Thresh, Morgana, Karma, Alistar, Brand, Zyra, and Vel'Koz would become potential nightmares.
Do you make the items more efficient?
Also a no, since then you get non-supports picking up support itemization, and you have to end up jumping in design hoops to make items that ONLY appeal to supports.
Do you increase gold income for supports?
I really think this is the best option -- or, at least, the one with the least potential to cause major issues to general balance. The trick is that you have to find a way to do it that doesn't feel super forced AND doesn't skew other lanes.
Giving gold to champions on nearby ally minion kills might work, as that might also open up some other jungle options by giving them a little more gold when they commit to a push. There are clearly problematic edge cases here (relying on your carry farming, for example, or late-game team pushes), but this might open up more jungle options, help supports, and maybe even allow some crazy gold-sharing shenanigans with unusual bottom lanes. My concern here is a meta where junglers want to just sit around lanes, so you might need to build an unusual system around this.
#Actually, now that I think about it, I'd favor building that mechanic into the gold generation items.
You'd have to opt into it as anything BUT a support, but supports would now get greater gold generation in a way that's not as abusable by non-supports. Thoughts on that? Giant problems I'm missing?
Edit: After reading your recent comment, this solution would ALSO avoid the "last-hitting no longer matters" issue (since it's on ally kill, not just enemy minion death), which seems a strong point in its favor.
On the relic shield note...I wonder if we just made it so that minion kills that happened around you after 35 miuntes or something automatically proced fotm charges. That's a bit...ham fisted, but it's a frustration point that might be nice to smooth out a bit. That's just me thinking though, not necessarily something that'd be implemented.
That's definitely an option, although it definitely does feel a little ham-fisted. Maybe you could standardize the gold income in the late game and let it function on jungle camps as well? That opens up some more opportunities to use it on things like mini-Raptors or mini-Krugs while still letting your team wave-clear. That's still rather clunky though. Hm.
ModKnightsKemplar6 votesI like that idea. It is only a little hamfisted, imo.
If you have an answer for this, I'd also love to hear what the current thoughts are on Sightstone (cause I would love to buff yellow trink back to release values and just lose SS!).
RiotRiot MapleNectar49 votesThis is merely my personal opinion, but I'd really prefer if supports didn't have to buy Sightstone as a first rush. With the nerfs to Ardent Censer shipping this week, we'll likely see supports going back to getting Sightstone as their first item, but is that world really better? Firstly, it's an item that doesn't offer much excitement for the support - and yes their role is to multiply their adc, defend from ganks, peel etc, but is buying an item that grants more vision something that a support is super pumped to do? It's certainly valuable, but having sightstone be an early purchase also means we're likely to see less agro bot lane fights due to it being harder for a jungler gank, it being harder for the laners to use FoW to their advantage to scare you into thinking their jungler is there by playing more agro in the lane etc.
If we were to somehow do away with sightstone, or at least make it so the support didn't need to buy it, we'd likely see satisfaction in the role increase across the board as players got to make more exciting decisions in the item system. That world is harder to solve for, as the continuous narrative of how do we best support supports goes on. I think this year was a pretty marked improvement, but there's still some issues that need to be ironed out. If a support is intended to multiply the adc, giving them more gold and powerful items means their adc will be that much stronger. There's more to figure out than I can go into here, but it's a constant discussion that we're having on how we can improve the situation.
EDIT: Adding a small disclaimer to the bottom of this since it got cross posted to Reddit. My first sentence should have read as "didn't have to buy Sightstone as a first rush". A world where the support doesn't need to build it all because of other means to gaining vision is an exciting world. What if there were other ways of establishing vision that weren't based on an item purchase? Things like Zombie/Poro wards in runes reforged come to mind when I think about it, but maybe there's more that we could do. I certainly didn't intend this as an official stance on Sightstone and it's place in the game. This was just my personal opinion on something KempyreanPirate was curious about. Sorry for the confusion!
Nefas14 votesBut is enabling supports to buy a direct ADC-enabling item earlier a good thing for game health? While it might not be exciting, having sightstone as a mandatory first item is part of what historically delays ADCs from coming on-line too early when they are currently supposed to be the late-game class. Sightstone is only an indirect ADC-enabling item. Isn’t that a lesson to be drawn from the ardent rush meta?
RiotRiot MapleNectar13 votesThat's what I had meant by this quote " think this year was a pretty marked improvement, but there's still some issues that need to be ironed out. If a support is intended to multiply the adc, giving them more gold and powerful items means their adc will be that much stronger. " We saw some major wins for the support class as a whole this year, but there was also some drawbacks. One thing that we see a lot right now is the sentiment that a game is won or lost based entirely on how your bot lane performs. While not entirely true, there is something to be said about making the support role on your team function as a whole champion (gold income and items). When a support can have comparable power to the rest of their teammates, it means that 40% of your team strengths come from that lane. If your bot lane comes out ahead, the loss of a portion of the 40% of strength on the opposing team feels quite sharp.
TL;DR - Yes there is a potential issue with supports just being able to turn on their adc earlier, but don't think we should suppress a class because of it. I think there's other much larger solves to the problem that need to be figured out in order to make it less of an issue. What if there was a game where you didn't need to take a support to round out a team comp every match? Or didn't need to take a marksman? What if 112J wasn't a thing? Those are huge opportunities, but also major major undertakings. I'm realizing now that this wasn't much of a tl;dr :P.
ProfDrDeath10 votesI don't think it would be good for League's appeal to the broad playerbase if Riot were to do away with the current lane set-up in favor of a less rigid structure. Because of this set-up, it is possible for a non-hardcore dedicated gamer (read: a casual player) to hit the play button, join a game and roughly know what he/she needs to do at a given position.
Just my 2 cents.
hopeful44 votesYeah and the dedicated playerbase should suffer from lack of diversity because the "casual player" cant bother to make a choice. Great reasoning
Lore Master2 votesThis argument is flawed in that it assumes the casual bar is parasitic to the dedicated fan base when I actuality they are symbiotic. Without either one the game is likely financially unviable in its current form. You can't just say being one side to hurt the other is bad reasoning
Charlie Loves U5 voteshere's an idea: bring back the upgraded yellow trinkets as a 250 gold purchase for all players from years ago and straight up remove sightstone.
additionally you can do all kinds of creative things with trinket paid upgrades.
so for 250 gold you turn your wards in trinket permanently into green wards.
for another 100 gold on top of that you can carry 3 wards at once as it recharges instead of 2.
for another 100 gold on top of that (500 gold total) you can carry up to 4 wards at once and it refills every time you go to the base.
this is cheaper than current sighstone and allows EVERYONE to get involved in the vision game, but at a price. I'd imagine a support can get the 250 gold upgrade early and hold off on the others.
because as long as sightstone is 800 gold only supports can afford to buy it, it will be a mandatory rush anytime a support item isn't busted as fuck to be worth rushing over it. vision is valuable. allow everyone to be a part of it instead of forcing it on the support.
Alternatively you can offer a way to enchant all items with an upgrade for every player like jungle items. each player can only "enchant" one item(that does not already have an active) and it gives them the same set up junglers have with tracker's knife. (refillable 2 mini sightstone) and then u could remove sighstone because supports could also build this and everyone can contribute two wards on top of their trinket if they so wish to.
Vicimus7 votesIt's very important that sightstone remains in this game. That item is what differentiates the good supports between the bad supports. This isn't just "hey let's shield this guy or heal this guy because they're fighting", this is ACTIVE decision making. Traditionally support has ALWAYS been about game knowledge, knowing the importance of vision and nuances of ward position has always been essential to that role. The reason it's rushed is because it has significant game impact.
The game impact is not just limited to the bot lane but also for other lanes such as top lane (if a jungler is spotted by a bot lane ward, they are enabled to play more aggressively). This is another reason why fighters are not the meta in the top lane. There's less vision in the early game to play around with and allow for aggression.
Overall, support has ALWAYS been about decision making. By removing sightstone, you will remove a significant chunk of that aspect. Redemption/Ardent Censer doesn't enable this. Redemption/Ardent Censer have clear-cut uses, there's no decision making involved. Hey is team low? Use Redemption. Is ADC in combat? Use shield with Ardent Censer buff. Not cool and definitely does not reward the better supports.
Just my perspective as a high elo player.
Ensatzuken2 votesI don't know about other ADCs but I would love to have a duskblade (or an AS or a crit item, an ADC item in simple) with sightstone effect. Just raw stats I feel good to rush as ADC and that passive and I would happily buy it to ward myself more. Being my second role support I find myself lacking in ability to ward enough when I play ADC, especially if my support wants to roam; I think it would be good for both roles: a little more agency for ADC (providing more to his own vision) and more freedom to build/roam to the support.
savagejen3 votesWhy don't you just make sightstone really cheap instead?
Néeko Neeko Nee2 votesBecause if it only costs 3-4-500 gold, then everyone would pretty much be ''forced'' to buy it, at any sort of semi-high elo. Sightstone is already a super valuable tool, and you see junglers going Trackers for more wards. If a midlaners/toplaner could spend 3-4-500 gold as a one time purchase, for ALOT of safety throughout entire laning phase, and the midgame, untill they need to sell it for the itemspot, it would become a must buy.
uguubean10 votesJust hoping to add another perspective here: I enjoy buying Sightstone first. I like the system of buying an item which enables me to take control of various situations in a way no other role can, without having to rely on mechanics that seem gimmicky and unreliable like Zombie/Poro wards. Delaying 
for Ardent Censer was painful and I hated it.
In my opinion, having access to tons of reliable vision at all phases of the game is an integral part of supporting. It's especially powerful when my teammates aren't buying pinks. I don't feel like I'm really playing support until I have a Sightstone online because it's so integral to the feel of playing the role. Sometimes, I want to be able to walk into the enemy jungle and drop 3 wards. There is no phase of the game when that volume of vision isn't useful. A support needs access to reliable vision.
If you do push other item starts over sightstone, please try to push a proactive playstyle. Items like 
were not more fun to buy first than Sightstone. 
and 
are items that push a proactive playstyle. Items that make you simply a stat boost for your adc are not fun ( ). If you're afraid of overloading us with active slots, 
and 
are great examples of items which allow nuanced plays, but do not require extensive mechanical focus.
Slice n Dice em5 votesYou should be down-voted for this. I don't like your opinion on sight-stone.
Blackquill3 votesand yes their role is to multiply their adc
Going very offtopic here but this little statement annoys me. Supports should be there for the whole team and not just as the personal slave of a botlane marksman. I also dislike the notion that the word ADC carries. No other position is so set in stone as botlane, where you have to have a marksman. Every other role/position has diversity but the farming part of a botlane is always the same for years now.
Teridax682 votesWhat would be your opinion on simply removing Sightstone, and buffing trinkets and/or jungle vision in compensation? Looking for alternative means of providing vision would be great, but at its most basic, Sightstone does the same thing as trinkets, only it takes up an item slot. For example, if the warding trinket evolved at level 9 to increase in capacity or the like, it would allow champions to ward adequately without becoming too safe in the laning phase.
AgentBlack3 votesWhat if, once the Relic quest was completed, hitting a minion within 5s of its death guaranteed the Relic proc? Like if I were Thresh sitting on 4 charges, I could just Flay a wave and get the procs as Tristana kills the first four minions.
RiotRiot MapleNectar6 votesPutting some sort of timer on minions makes it a bit weird. Does that mean the support should over extend and use their cds to tag all the minions before they get to their carries who then clear them to get the procs? Do we need to add a timer to each of the minions to help the support understand when they will or will not get the proc? It feels like a slick solution for someone like Thresh, Leo, and Alistar might be happy since they have AoE, but what about Blitz? Should he use his ult to get the procs late game?
It's not a bad idea by any means, but it leads to some odd behavioral incentives that I don't think we'd be quite happy with.
Cosnirak3 votesI think you're understating the value of coin. A big part of its power is in the hardest combat stat to evaluate, mana. Depending on the matchup and the champ using it, the extra mana from coin alone can eclipse the combat stats of the other two, particularly if the support is largely left alone but the adc is being targeted.
Of course Riot already figured that out, and that's why coin got a nerf to the mana it gives. My problem with that is that it makes for a less fun experience for supports. STE doesn't give enough mana for the supports who need it. With the mana from coin nerfed I've gone back to just not playing support again. I feel that terrible mana is a clear sign of a larger problem with a champion and should never be left like that.
statelesskiller6 votesonce PBE hit spell thiefs edge is gonna be a gangplank item more then a support item LOL
Malothere4 votesthey should bring all gold gen items in line with coin really so that it can just be down to "Do you need tankyness, do you need mana or do you need damage?"
RottedApples2 voteswhat the fuck is STE?
OyddAWqJ5r5 votesApparently Spellthief's Edge. Idk why tf you'd call it STE though. SE makes more sense. Even then, just say Spellthief's jeez.
LightIsMyPath1 votesI don't get it. It should be more damage vs more more sustain, not more damage until first back vs more gold and more damage AND utility after first back cause the coin user got items sooner... I don't care if they Nerf coin or buff spellthief but either must be aimed at gold generation!
chipndip13 votesIdk why Riot thinks that 5 ap would do jack shit for STE outside of making it a clear indicator for who's boosted beyond reasoning and who's still abusing coin, but here we are.
Variks the Loyal1 votesWhy is the least risky item to use the undisputed champ at the primary reason we buy gold items?
Because it offers the least in terms of combat stats or immediate benefits.
chipndip15 votesThe primary reason to buy a gold item is to GAIN GOLD. Who cares about the excess stuff if you build your real core significantly faster?
