increase the tickrate on E slightly so that it procs a bit faster. Currently theres like a 1 second laspe in intervals. If it was a bit faster Karthus could have slightly more consistent damage to punish people.
Same DPS but slightly faster intervals.
Fondling Gems22 votesAnd a 1% slow on his ult for them sick assists when you are trying to help.
Votable Jester9 votesI'd say 1 true damage because a slow, even that small, could have an impact (like one more auto perhaps or even a rengar leap).
Poske2 votesHe already gets assists because he did dmg?
TheSnacken4 votesWell, if it pops. Its a really long channel. That 3 seconds is brutal.
Edit: It also won't give credit if the ability doesn't do any damage, such as if they eat Zhonya's or EoN or some like ability to save themselves, which is always kind of a bummer.
DeathBot6661 votesThat would also get rid of any activatable spell shield that takes less than 3 seconds to channel...
Votable Jester2 votesDoes the spawning of Anivia's wall stop that?
Valeckserai4 votesBut that 1 true damage can proc DFT, which would be insane late game.
Votable Jester2 votesI think they can make it not do that because I'm pretty sure Anivia's wall already does 1 true damage on spawn.
Bârd5 votesThat would be a slight nerf.
Karthus relies on quick E toggles to nab CS he can't get with Q.
It's like how when Riot changed Fiddle W in exactly this way, it was a massive nerf to playstyles like Middlesticks, since he became unable to last hit with Drain.
Earthlord Jazz1 votesIsn't that, like, a TON of mana for just one creep though? Seems like you'd be in a pretty bad position if you have to resort to your drain to get that one CS
Bârd2 votesYou have to remember that this was with the old 
in its prime.
Spending mana just wasn't that big of a deal as long as you weren't draining for CS constantly.
Aeszarck1 votesThat would be a slight nerf.
Karthus relies on quick E toggles to nab CS he can't get with Q.
It's like how when Riot changed Fiddle W in exactly this way, it was a massive nerf to playstyles like Middlesticks, since he became unable to last hit with Drain.
You're right. Glad to see someone else posting this.
underscores2223 votesBasically what they did for Amumu - ticks on half-second, but each tick does half damage (thus maintaining x damage per second)
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesthat doesnt maintain damage per second because of how magic resist and penetration works. smaller numbers means less damage penetrated in a direct inverse flow that grows multiplicative. and it would impact liandrys, deathfire, thunderlords, and his ability to last hit with his toggle
underscores2223 votesNo - pen "adjusts" MR and then the modified MR number determines the % reduction in damage received. Since damage and pen are two different equations, affecting one does not impact the other. I don't really want to go into calculating the MR/Pen to % damage reduction, but the game uses MR and pen to determine how much incoming damage is reduced by, then applies the damage. Pen effectively lowers MR in the equation, resulting in a lower % reduction. Damage is then adjusted by the % reduction, and since its a percentage, 2 instances of half damage will equal one instance of full damage.
Basically if I have an ability that does 100 damage, and the target has enough MR that it takes 50% reduced damage, it comes to 50 damage dealt. If I do two instances of 50 damage, each reduced by 50%, each instance does 25 damage, for to 50 total damage.
Now if we say that there's enough pen to reduce their MR to only providing 25% reduction, the single instance damage would be 75, and each of the two instances would deal 37.5 damage. Now there's likely a rounding event that will happen there, causing the ability to technically deal one additional damage (two instances of 38 damage for a total of 76), but that's a rounding error.
In terms of items - it would probably proc thunderlords faster - I don't see a way around that based on how I understand the keystone to work. Overall it's not that much of a difference - in most cases less than a second difference since karthus will at least auto/q the target. Liandrys will have the buff refreshed more often, but the tick damage and time between ticks for that would be unchanged and wouldn't be affected. Same with deathfire. His last hitting with his aoe should be easier - less time between hits for minions to snipe the kills.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votes
all of those items would be impacted in some way or another.
that rounding error is what im talking about. the damage will either be lower or higher. there is no exact halfing of the overall damage output. so either karthus gets 1-5 points stronger or he gets 1-5 points weaker.
if he's getting stronger then im completely fine with it, but he's plenty weak enough as is. there are literally no items that synergize well with him anymore because all of the AP has been sucked out of abyssal, rylias, zhonya and the cost has been relatively worsened due to the cooldown reduction that he doesnt need.
the only builds for him now is either a tanky build with abyssal and rod of ages or a glass cannon version of him with archangel and rabbadons. and either way you go there are at least 9 spell shields in game not including invulnerability, healing, and other things that just straight up prevent his ultimate.
not to mention quite a few keystones grant protection against his R and not just in a bonus magic resist way.
so i'd rather he get buffed.
Big Black Croc1 votesLmao, alot of the champs you listed dont even stop karthus ult.
???
And these are just a few.
BLACK REALM GOD1 voteschogath's R is on a low cooldown and grants him 160 max health at level 3. that's enough to counter it with visage. that's not even accounting for warmogs if he has it.
talon and katarina can dodge by using their blink at the last second rengar has the ability to at max fury increase his resistances and his R grants him max fury sona has healing and shields graves has the ability to stack magic resist by dashing thanks to true grit lux has a double shield on her E that blocks more than enough damage to prevent her from dying from the R
i was incorrect on pantheon. his aegis only blocks basic attacks and turret shots now.
anything else?
here's his R math
Magic Damage: 250 / 400 / 550 (+ 60% AP)
Big Black Croc1 votesSome of the things u said shows me u dont even play these champions. talon and kat cant dodge with blink, talon doesnt even have a blink anymore... rengar's W dosent give resistances anymore. graves dosent get mr from grit anymore. lux's shield is so small, i dont know why u think it will block all the damage from R. sona's healing and shield also is small and dosent stop the full ult.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesmagic resist blocks roughly half of the damage and the rest is blocked by their heals and shields. you cant do 1.5k damage anymore with karthus's ultimate.
kat has a way of reducing the damage by using her blink. her kit in general though is just a nightmare for karthus regardless
talon, rengar, and graves dont have those features anymore so you're correct. i dont own them and but i do play them when they're free.
TheSnacken1 votesSame DPS, but a fsster tick rate? Sounds good to me.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesit would be weaker to magic resist overall. that's a nerf.
TheSnacken1 votesHmm, that's a good point. So somrthing closer to 2x tick speed, and .65 damage? That makes it slightly better against squishies... Assassins are already weak to battle mages, so that's not bad. Divers will probably have merc treads or maw, so its good there. Marksmen should be nowhere near Kathrus anyway.
I'd say it checks out.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesdoesnt matter. any time you half damage you lose penetration. you cant make it equal by changing numbers around. that's not how it works.
if you take 100 magic resist and 100 magic damage you get 50 damage
if you take 100 magic resist and 50 magic damage you get 25 damage
if you take 150 magic resist and 100 magic damage you get 40 damage
if you take 150 magic resist and 50 magic damage you get 20 damage.
easy in theory with just base numbers, but when penetration get involved...
if you take 100 magic resist and 100 magic damage with 7% penetration you get 51.8134
if you take 100 magic resist and 50 magic damage with 7% penetration you get 25.9067
if you take 150 magic resist and 100 magic damage with 7% (or 10.5 flat) penetration you get 41.7536
if you take 150 magic resist and 50 magic damage with 7% (or 10.5 flat) penetration you get 20.8768
so as you can see the damage numbers start being a bit crazy.
then there's the issues with thunderlords, deathfire touch, liandrys, and maybe some others that i havent considered like merciless.
underscores2222 votesTell me, what's 25.9067 x 2? 51.8134 20.8768 x 2? 41.7536 (apparently asterix makes things italic)
So if you're doing the 50 damage twice per second, or the 100 damage once per second, your per second damage rate is the same, regardless of pen or the target's MR.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesthat's with rounding. the numbers i got weren't rational. if you round a number you lose or gain due to rounding error. that's the point im trying to make.
underscores2221 votesYou're talking about a .02% error. It would take 30 seconds of standing in the ability for that damage to be significant.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=000700000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T20:14:23.445+0000)
okay. lets say it's .5 damage at half a second.
that's 1 damage every second.
that's 30 damage every 30 seconds.
multiply that by 5 and you have 180 you just missed out on in a 30 second team fight.
team fights dont last 30 seconds you say?
okay. lets do 15 seconds. 3 for how long karthus is alive, 2 for how long zhonyas lasts, 3 for seraphs active and 7 for his passive.
that's 90 damage.
90 damage isnt a lot you say?
tell that to anyone who would rather have fervor of battle over ANY keystone.
underscores2221 votes90 damage assuming the person stays in the zone the entire time (unlikely since for at least half of it you can't move) - it's also less than an auto-attack. 90 damage is not going to change the outcome of a team fight, where damage dealt is upwards of 10,000 total.
That's also assuming all rounding is down - which while possible to do with programming isn't usually the standard. Assuming the standard rounding - half up, half down - law of averages implies that for every point of damage karthus loses to rounding down, he gains to rounding up, resulting in a net average of no change across many games.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesyoure forgetting that karthus doesnt only deal damage to players, but all enemies. minion waves, dragons, barons, camps. everything but structures.
throughout an entire game (30 minutes) you'd be missing out on roughly 1800 just with a single target always being affected by your E. so basically bare minimum is 1800 damage lost just on minions.
a wave of 6 minions every 30 seconds is 180 damage every 30 seconds - not including siege minions.
if you clear a wave every 30 seconds for 30 minutes not including siege minions thats 10800 damage in a game you've lost just on minions.
obviously those numbers arent exact, but that's because it's annoying trying to account for siege minions which grant more damage since the wave will be 7 instead of 6 and the game doesnt start until 1:15 and it takes roughly 30 seconds from the minions to get to mid.
underscores2221 votesBut, that doesn't really matter? Your situation requires every single minion wave to be farmed with E up. I don't play karthus much, but I know you can't do that.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesyou cant do that early game, but late game it's easy peasy and sometimes you can even do it in all 3 lanes if you have enough cloud drakes and movement speed.
late game to me is 15 minutes in. i dont do mid game. i do late and early.
underscores2221 votesThis still ignores the fact that the change in damage is so insignificant you would never notice it.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesi think that's a bit presumptuous of my character isnt it? i mean i did call it to attention after all.
a nerf is a nerf is a nerf.
rounding those numbers up is one thing. rounding them down however would be nerfing the stat and on a skill that does damage per second or in the case of this idea per half second you'd be losing a lot of damage through the course of the game. his ability is toggle on always as soon as proper mana regen/sustain is provided.
underscores2221 votesThis would actually be, as proven, mathematically neutral in terms of damage. Thus it would not be a nerf. If anything, you should call this a buff, as the half-second tick deals more consistent damage - it's harder to leave the AOE before the half-second tick. You are micro-focused on the number rounding (which we don't actually know at what place it occurs) without looking at the bigger picture.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T12:25:10.526+0000)
it would be weaker to magic resist overall. that's a nerf.
magic resist does not work that way.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesyou're forgetting how percentages work with penetration. you going to overall lose damage.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-11T18:19:58.523+0000)
you're forgetting how percentages work with penetration. you going to overall lose damage.
I assure you, I am not.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesif you do that it's going to ruin his E farming, make liandrys, deathfire, and thunderlords stronger on him, and require him to build EVEN MORE penetration because of his smaller numbers on E.
no thanks.
Meep Man3 votesThat's not how it would work at all dude. Legit all that would be the same and his E farming would arguably be better. Why would he need more penetration, he deals the same overall damage?
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesbecause magic resist is multiplicative not additive.
Quepha2 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T12:26:15.092+0000)
because magic resist is multiplicative not additive.
hypothetical situation: 100 magic resist target 1 tick at 100 damage vs. 2 ticks at 50 damage
damage multiplier = 100 / (100 + 100) = 100 / 200 = 1/2
100 damage x 1/2 = 50 damage
2 x (50 damage x 1/2) = 2 x (25 damage) = 50 damage
50 damage = 50 damage
it's the same.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesthat's with whole numbers penetration works in percentages. i.e. more decimal points. decimal points get rounded. you're going to lose damage.
it's also going to change how any damage + damage effect works on him like liandrys. that's the misleading thing about multipliers and percentages. you end up with irrational numbers.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T18:24:11.927+0000)
that's with whole numbers penetration works in percentages. i.e. more decimal points. decimal points get rounded. you're going to lose damage.
Are you complaining about losing literally a single point of damage per second to rounding? That doesn't seem worth the time to post and it might not even be accurate as I'm pretty sure this game tracks most values as decimals under the covers (it has been confirmed by Red posts that this applies to crit chance so there isn't a magic minimum number of crit runes you need to attain 1% crit)
it's also going to change how any damage + damage effect works on him like liandrys. that's the misleading thing about multipliers and percentages. you end up with irrational numbers.
in either case liandry's would start ticking on the first damage tick and simply be refreshed by further damage without falling off, the change in average damage would be very, very tiny.
Your reference to irrational numbers is especially bizarre because we are dealing entirely with rational numbers so we can't possibly get an irrational number from any of the equations we are dealing with. The formal definition of irrational numbers are "numbers which cannot be made by dividing two integers" which logically extends to the division of any rational numbers.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesyes i am. i am complaining about the possibility of losing 1-5 points of damage. 1-5 points of TRUE damage. not magic damage. true damage. that's a lot when talking about a spell that is going to be activated every half a second over the course of 30 seconds.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T20:02:26.612+0000)
yes i am. i am complaining about the possibility of losing 1-5 points of damage. 1-5 points of TRUE damage. not magic damage. true damage. that's a lot when talking about a spell that is going to be activated every half a second over the course of 30 seconds.
it's not 1-5 points of damage, it's literally 1 damage (and probably not even that)
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesokay. lets say it's .5 damage at half a second.
that's 1 damage every second.
that's 30 damage every 30 seconds.
multiply that by 5 and you have 180 you just missed out on in a 30 second team fight.
team fights dont last 30 seconds you say?
okay. lets do 15 seconds. 3 for how long karthus is alive, 2 for how long zhonyas lasts, 3 for seraphs active and 7 for his passive.
that's 90 damage.
90 damage isnt a lot you say?
tell that to anyone who would rather have fervor of battle over ANY keystone.
Quepha1 votes90 damage across five targets for 15 seconds, assuming you're correct about math in this game, which you probably aren't.
You're comparing to fervor of battle, which gives up to 64 AD. Every AD scaling ability gets probably 40-60% of that value, every auto gets that full value, often attacking more than once per second, often having further scaling with crit.
You're being crazy right now.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votesup to 64 AD in increments of 1-8 AD over a chain of 4-8 basic attacks. unless runaans grants triple stacksj (which im 90% sure it doesnt) you're going to need at least 6 seconds just to get to 64 bonus base attack damage that is then reduced by armor.
the 90 damage i'm using is true damage that is not reduced because i've already calculated the difference through magic resist. it is the same regardless of magic resistance or time since i've simplified it. the value of difference is roughly 1 damage per second which would be lost through rounding error. even in the event that league rounds to the nearest ten thousandth or ten millionth youre still losing valuable damage throughout the course of a game. that's how people survive with zero hp.
the actual amount of true damage that the fervor of battle generates at max stats will usually never be higher than the base number which means that yes you get to use it in many different ways, but it wont be higher than 64 unless you're getting criticals on a target with less than 40% damage reduction. in other words it'd have to be on targets with less than 150 armor. that's easy to do early game not so easy to do late game.
the reason why it mostly wont ever be higher is because all of the abilities and items that use attack damage as a factor use a percentage of your attack damage and that percentage is rarely over 100. sometimes it is, but not usuallly.
Aeszarck1 votes[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EMlEM24j,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-04-11T12:22:25.138+0000)
That's not how it would work at all dude. Legit all that would be the same and his E farming would arguably be better. Why would he need more penetration, he deals the same overall damage?
In some cases it will give him better farming, but (I think) you are forgetting one special thing about E that you're forgetting: It is instant damage when it is turned on. Some (many?) Karthus players just turn it on instantly if they just miss a minion with an auto attack or a Lay Waste or if two minions are dying at once. If it does less damage per tick, using the first tick of damage to kill the minion will be harder. (Not sure if you know that. I really like Karthus and he's my go-to middle laner when I want to play hard, especially if I don't know what I'm up against.)
