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support items getting nerfed in 8.6

JarodDempsey··5 votes·1,317 views
Changes to Support Items (Removing Bandit for 8.6)

So first they take away sightstone and make it completely dependent on the support item gold generation and now theyre nerfing that too.

Not even accounting for the loss of gold from pokes, just the minion death gold is -2gp/10.

item 3097 Targons is getting buffed directly to compensate for this. Overall impact should be negligible.

item 3098 Frostfang and coin are getting indirectly buffed. For frostfang 2 extra AA on an enemy champ in 15 minutes will make up for the passive loss, in lane thats not terrible. However the loss of passive gold on minion death as well as the 3 on aa (which ff users get most use out of) means the the nerf will be quite significant for ff users especially after lane when opportunities to poke enemies are much more rare. This doesnt make much sense to me since ff was already by far the weakest at gold generation.

item 3301 For coin The gold per coin is getting buffed by 12.5% but the coins per 10 minutes is getting nerfed 5.6%. This means that coins will be more important and wave control will also be a larger priority for supports even though it'll be up to the carries to manage.

item 3097 item 3098 item 3301 In addition to this theyre completely disabling all gold generation from the items if the support kills a minion and the duration of the disable vastly increases as more minions are killed. This causes supports to choose between controlling a wave/preventing it from pushing on a tower and maintaining their progress towards their next item which is imo very unhealthy. This is a significant nerf to any support with poor waveclear which is most of them. This also punishes supports whose poke ability might occasionally kill a low health minion. Overall gold generation should noticably fall off after lane phase for all three items (with frostfang suffering the most percentage-wise).

TLDR: All supp items getting moderate gold nerfs in 8.6. item 3097 is not too bad. item 3098 is majorly impacted. item 3301 coin is situationally impacted.

20 Comments

dunder kill4 votes

Thank God. Support starting items are so fucking busted

JarodDempsey4 votes

like how though? targons is the only one with meaningful passive aside from gold generation in lane. FF is terribad at gold generation. Coin is pretty middle of the road.

Ahristocats2 votes

Good

Azadethe2 votes

  1. It's just bringing them in line and in some ways making support easier.

  2. Coin is the most significantly impacted by this change. Coin allowed passive play and only to Tier 2. You already more or less needed to T2 Frostfang because of the penalty.

  3. It's encouraging supports not to supplement adc gold taking.

I as a support main won't see too much of a difference except on Coin supports, and the speed at which I get to T3 on Zyra and Morgana , because they will have to walk on eggshells not to steal minions.

BUT..... I'm willing to take the risk for 2 reasons:

  1. Brand Xerath Velkoz are all notoriously chosen as supports because they outrange and outspam any adc and most supports. The changes are going to heavily punish all of them, because they have a tendency to steal minions. I think at least with Velkoz and Xerath we'll see less of them abusing the support role. Brand might slip through the cracks and still perform okay until he can T3 it, but I think he'll probably lose 36-120 seconds on the speed at which he acquires it.

  2. The T3 rewards are getting steroided. 4 gold per 10 sec..... 20/45 gold, etc..... If you can play nice with cs for about 1450g, you can get to a place where your gold is much higher than it used to be.

My biggest concern: sometimes your adc is an absolute sucker at laning, sometimes by the champ choice and others by skill. Vayne particularly always needs some assistance poking minions to really secure a lane. Otherwise, her lane phase is really bad, being the lowest range adc in the game. If her support doesn't help, she often is behind the other laner by 25-30 cs by default. This is going to dangerously affect supports which are line of sight too, like Karma . Karma can't help but pick up a minion here or there, and sometimes HAS to to secure a kill lane for her Q hitbox.

P.S. item 3311 is not the lowest gold generation. It depends on the champ you play. Many of your enchanters are advertising the wrong gold item. Nami for example, should almost always be item 3301 , because it protects her from getting stiffed vs a bot lane that doesn't want to come out and feed her free pokes or outpokes and outranges her.

However, supports like Zyra Morgana MissFortune Lux thrive at proccing the gold. And once they have T3, they can wave clear too, and carry a bad adc if need be.

Depending on the champ it's put on, both return similar gold values if you let them. Relic is arguably the weakest, although it does help stack adcs, even if it does starve the support of gold and leaves them squishy.

JarodDempsey1 votes

{quoted}

  1. It's just bringing them in line and in some ways making support easier.

It in no way is making support easier, it's literally slowing their gold generation which directly delays their item purchases

{quoted}

  1. It's encouraging supports not to supplement adc gold taking.

What do you mean by supplement adc gold taking?

{quoted}

... abusing the support role.

You can't "abuse" a role.

{quoted}

  1. The T3 rewards are getting steroided. 4 gold per 10 sec..... 20/45 gold, etc..... If you can play nice with cs for about 1450g, you can get to a place where your gold is much higher than it used to be.

You should never rush T3 anyways since basically every other itrem has more important stats after vision so any buffs to those items are of little to no consequence since if you even get around to building them at all it'll be super late game.

{quoted}

...like Karma . Karma can't help but pick up a minion here or there, and sometimes HAS to to secure a kill lane for her Q hitbox.

I agree i mentioned to this effect in my post, it will potentially be significantly detrimental to most poke supports.

{quoted}

P.S. item 3311 is not the lowest gold generation. It depends on the champ you play. Many of your enchanters are advertising the wrong gold item. Nami for example, should almost always be item 3301 , because it protects her from getting stiffed vs a bot lane that doesn't want to come out and feed her free pokes or outpokes and outranges her.

However, supports like Zyra Morgana MissFortune Lux thrive at proccing the gold. And once they have T3, they can wave clear too, and carry a bad adc if need be.

the vast majority of non-tank supports benefit far more from taking coin since poking is inherently dangerous and risky for many of them due to squishiness or lack of range. On average all champs considered, FF generates the least gold. Champs like Lux and zyra can take advantage of ff, morgana is a bit dubious, and mf is so F tier i wouldnt even consider her support and I've mained off meta supports since S3, she hasnt been niche viable since they nerfed make it rain like a couple seasons ago.

{quoted}

Depending on the champ it's put on, both return similar gold values if you let them. Relic is arguably the weakest, although it does help stack adcs, even if it does starve the support of gold and leaves them squishy.

edge only gives .3- .4 more gold per second than relic shield and killing minions is a lot more reliable than hitting enemies for the vast majority of champions

Azadethe1 votes

  1. Easier as in... you sit back and play casually versus actually acting. Which means you have mana for when you need it, play more conservative, etc.

  2. Some supports are meant to help the bad clearing adc push a lane when needed. Karma for example often Q's a wave to set up easy 1 auto attack kills for an adc. Sometimes this gets Karma a stray minion.

  3. Abusing as in these are NOT support champions, but play it because gold is easier as support than as a bad csing laner, and they know these spoiler mages can outlane anything an adc/support throws at them. They have almost no counterplay bot and start the game with very low cooldowns and mana costs.

  4. Actually you almost always should, because it increases your gold take per game. I on average have my Ward quest completed by 8 minutes, even on a bad lane phase, and have my T2 by 4 minutes. T3 is dependent on what gold I have when I recall; I'm usually stuck starting to build T3 at the same time as building my second item, because no secondary recall has exactly the gold you need for T3, or a second item.

I generally lead all supports who think like you do by at least 200g early game and 2000-3000g by game end, meaning I'm ahead of them an entire item, simply because I actually do Prioritize my items over staying in lane when we full push, or after we get an objective.

I mean..... finishing T3 has been standard on Morgana Zyra since the last support item patch. Otherwise you begin getting stupid 2 minute cooldowns on gold generation around level 6-8, because Morg and Zyra just begin killing minions because of who they are.

I didn't used to T3 on Sona Nami Karma Janna because item 3305 was a safer item on them and you didn't need to T3. Now I do, so that's going to change a bit.

Gold wins games. Not rushing bits and pieces of a second item. This is why I snow champs that build item 3303 and then rush right into a item 3504 By the time they have their censer off the weak gold accumulation, I've got item 3092 +item 3504

  1. Mf is the strongest support in the game if you ask me. She's about the only swiss army knife left in the game, and you can choose to build her to control the game with E or with Autos as the game progresses. Although they nerfed her cooldown on E a couple patches ago, it's still extremely strong with the right builds, will outdamage the entire team, and generally controls games more than her R or autos or Q's. E + W is just so OP that almost no counter can ever get close to her or people she's protecting, unless she turns around and auto attacks. The only way I ever die on her is if someone flashes in and releases a nasty stun combo..... in which case I burned their flash and entire kit.

Comet + E is ready game control, wave control, and if you have mana items it just is so much more. Not to mention every skill in her kit can now apply grievous wounds in aoes.... shred armor, do large damage...... etc. Try it sometime.

SuperRiceBoi1 votes

Vayne isn't lowest range ADC. Lucian and Kai'Sa are 500, Kalista gonna be 525 next patch. Vayne is 550.

resumed2 votes

you need 500 gold for your item to make it into a sightstone vs 800 for what sightstone cost, and you dont even need to buy it anymore...

so like

whats with the prelude? the sightstone changes were good

Oleandervine5 votes

No, they were garbage. They directly nerfed your vision in the game by this awkward fucking item quest (you can't plan your trinkets around completing it), and then claimed it will help you buy items faster. That was then just slaughtered with the removal of Bandit and adding on the slowrr Gp10, which will make obtaining your vision even more difficult. Furthermore, accidentally killing a minion or pushing the wave against an aggressive opponent actively punishes your vision and your income. All of these changes are hot garbage.

Riot needs to seriously conceive a way to bind support items to the role itself so they don't have to gut the ever living shit out of them every season when they get poached by other lanes.

JarodDempsey2 votes

{quoted}

Riot needs to seriously conceive a way to bind support items to the role itself so they don't have to gut the ever living shit out of them every season when they get poached by other lanes.

^yes this. If people are abusing the support items as fearless says then bind them to the supp role instead of nerfing every supp

resumed1 votes

i dont think supports need bandit anymore now that they dont have to buy sightstone, however i do think the minion changes are the only required change

Oleandervine1 votes

The reasoning supports were told that Sightstone and the Gold items got changed was so that supports could buy items faster and hit power spikes. If supports do not have the gold to buy items, this makes no sense. The removal of Bandit and these income changes will put supports back in the gutter by forcing them to be scraping by with whatever items they can afford, instead of meaningful picks or powerful items that build from their gold items. The removal of Bandit is a terrible thing for supports, because it will be Riot's way of coming back around to the beginning again where supports didn't have the gold to function fully.

resumed1 votes

say that like buying sightstone was ever not awkward lmao

ur on ur shit again

Sailor Mint1 votes

Bandit becomes really hard to proc after a while.

Overall it should be mostly neutral.

JarodDempsey3 votes

bandit includes the passive gold from minion deaths, in addition to the removal of bandit theyre adding in that generation stopping effect on minion kill as well. seems pretty significant overall

Azadethe1 votes

they're also adding 5g to each stack. aka about what bandit gave you for a wave, and doubling the gold per sec from 2 per 10 to 4 per 10.

JarodDempsey1 votes

5 g only effects coins and tributes, only targons is getting the passive to make up for loss of gold on minion death

SuperRiceBoi1 votes

So support gets no gold on a minion kill with new targon's?!

Milton Fletcher1 votes

Just nerf shields and lulus polymorph and we are good.

Give an item that counters shields and supports are fine other than lulu being in the state she is in.

SuperRiceBoi1 votes

Riot please don't do this to support items. It looks like they're just trying to water down the role for autofill supports. We've all auto filled before, but playing Support is quite a valuable tool for game sense. And while many times I'm frustrated with champ and item changes revolving around pro play, it's kinda disappointing that pro Supports have to work around these major shifts. While I'm fine with the sightstone removal personally, I still don't think it was all too much a good move on Riot's part. Vision is such an important part of the game, so making it harder for supports to not be able to get vision in a well defined way isn't a good thing. Riot should focus on items in the ADC role, they've been untouched for a while now and it's gotten pretty bland. Fortunately, we get a brief reprieve with the whacky build path of Kai'Sa, but that's only a temporary patch up

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