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@Meddler, The affect of wave clear on the game and game pace

Affinity2··8 votes·965 views

Remember me http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/eHfhBNJW-meddler-why-buff-assasins to be overtly boastful I have a good grip on game concepts and post that a while before the thunderlords and armor pen buffs both of which got reverted. I knew this BEFORE champion.gg had sufficient data to back up my claim. I'm saying this because many people wont like what I'm gonna say next, It challenges how you and other popular figures in league evaluate the game and game pace.

Wave clear is overpowered and has a higher power in any kit than should be budgeted, with the exception of a couple champions. examples of healthy wave clearCaitlyn Leblanc Anivia

What do all of these champions have in common? significant weaknesses associated with there wave clear. Anivia needs to tap into powerspikes from 6 and mana items. caitlyn has sieging as her defined niche and makes significant trade offs. Leblanc has to commit her ulti and her escape and trade her cooldowns in the early game.

examples of bad wave clear (and the reason why this game is outright boring to watch and play at a high level)Xerath Graves Ahri Lulu Velkoz (not sure how much I should emphasize how BULLSHIT velkoz wave clear is.... 0 cost 0 cooldown no risk no gameplay)Velkoz Ziggs Viktor (was bullshit got nerfed)Corki Zed Lux Gangplank Varus (let me know if I missed any low risk high reward ranged waveclear champions, I have omitted Chogath andTwistedFate on the grounds of being grey)

All of these champions in one way or another RUIN YES RUIN most games they are in. They are grossly misappropriated power.

EXAMPLE:Gangplank Imagine how balanced gp would be if he couldn't power farm or wave clear at level 9 plus trin force. How much extra power could go into blowing up a champion with WELL DESERVED FARM instead of free safe stale lane jank farm. Its the whole reason hes been on the path notes and gets so many early game nerfs.

The mages Xerath gets mana sustain and has obscene range, Lux Lulu Graves Viktor have too strong defensive options and start waveclearing much to fast for their other functions

Velkoz Varus HOW AM I EVEN SUPPOSED TO INTERACT WITH THESE CHAMPIONS RIOT? DRAGON BARON IS NOT AN ANSWER.

Zed Ziggs Corki these three have been on the fritz of overpowered or something else just because of how good they are at fighting and waveclear. maybe they don't belong on this list.

@balance team why is it good to have waveclear around when its just as bad as perma sustain? its the whole reason 40 minute games are boring instead of fun and a big part of the reason the lcs is boring to watch.

TLDR: I'm not saying nerf these champions outright. I'm saying remove their no play waveclear and compensate them with something else. perhaps more fighting power or damage to champions. Wave clear is bad for the game in terms of fun for both teams.

14 Comments

Goosetard2 votes

Although it's completely tangential to the point of your thread, I'm at least glad that someone agrees with me that Velkoz's effortless waveclear that allows him to keep all his cds that interact with enemy champions is an element of DISTINCT STRATEGIC IDENTITY

Affinity22 votes

in the xerath q department damage falloff per unit hit significant falloff with minions plus larger range and change his w around a bit to make the center deal something other than bonus damage so you cant just nuke minions with it.

velkoz no more w

varus make manamune not stack on aa's or something..... this one is hard because they have pushed varus TOWARDS this identity while they push all other champs away since release

gp- not sure.... the bandaid fix seems like a permanent one

lux viktor lulu graves - remove heavily nerf shields/defensive options or their wave clear. in lulus case and maybe graves the later is probably better

zed- revert e changes and nerf q 20 damage

ziggs is just underpowered because of his mana costs which is a worse bandaid fix because it affects all other gameplay aspects.

not so bad is it?

GenghisEmo1 votes

An i the only one who Thinks Viktor and Lux are not that hard to beat up?

Lux needs nerfs. Early gane is easy to counter. Early long CDs.

Vik didnt. Still easy to expose a weaknees with his waveclear. He uses. Then poke or go in, then back off. Repeat as his CDs are reasonably long. and pounce on it. Now it is easier to punish.

Now Ziggs UP. Poor guy. I miss how annoying, yet reasonably balanced, he was.

Sohleks2 votes

Yeah. I think the professional scene understands you can't possibly EVER have enough waveclear so long as it's not a significant tradeoff. Stronger damage, thicker area, longer range waveclear converts very easily into a more stoic turtle whoever does die.

Corki Ekko Gragas Graves Lucian Lulu Nautilus Sivir TwistedFate Varus item 3087 item 3748

(I personally think Shiv was made too good over rapidfirecannon...)

I loooove playing Varus though, his Q is soo BS. One of the most overpowered individual abilities in the game. Especially when I have my allies or minions spot vision for me so I can snipe from beyond their range of sight.

Affinity21 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. I think the professional scene understands you can't possibly EVER have enough waveclear so long as it's not a significant tradeoff. Stronger damage, thicker area, longer range waveclear converts very easily into a more stoic turtle whoever does die.

Corki Ekko Gragas Graves Lucian Lulu Nautilus Sivir TwistedFate Varus item 3087 item 3748

(I personally think Shiv was made too good over rapidfirecannon...)

I loooove playing Varus though, his Q is soo BS. One of the most overpowered individual abilities in the game. Especially when I have my allies or minions spot vision for me so I can snipe from beyond their range of sight. dammit. why has no one tried to grammar Nazi me. I misspelled effect as affect and several there their just to give some asshole a fucking seizure

ForgiveColour2 votes

Anivia healthy waveclear? What the fuck? Did you get hit by a car and forgot all about s5 and preseason? I'm tilted by you right now.

Affinity21 votes

{quoted}

Anivia healthy waveclear? What the fuck? Did you get hit by a car and forgot all about s5 and preseason? I'm tilted by you right now.

its kind of healthy because outside of her wall and teamfight control its her niche. its well understood and has counters like any sort of channel disruption. Its pretty hard for the anivia to play around too and requires teammates to make sure her ult wont get disrupted. shes slow it and its not infinite range and she has no good mana sustain.... yea its really really really good but its fair

Affinity21 votes

you could literally slap half damage to minion on a lot of these spells buff them in the single target department or on their ults or something and be done with this debate by next pbe patch until they come up with a more permanent less jank solution like say..... the mage rework????? hmmmmmmmm

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

you could literally slap half damage to minion on a lot of these spells buff them in the single target department or on their ults or something and be done with this debate by next pbe patch until they come up with a more permanent less jank solution like say..... the mage rework????? hmmmmmmmm

What would a more permanent solution be? Massively reducing the amount of AOE champions have? Making all large AOE abilities short ranged?

DrNova1 votes

Lol lb is healthy waveclear. K

Affinity25 votes

{quoted}

Lol lb is healthy waveclear. K

what about melee range mana costs and strong cd's isn't healthy????? her wave clear IS healthy. you just don't think leblanc is healthy

DrNova1 votes

{quoted}

what about melee range mana costs and strong cd's isn't healthy????? her wave clear IS healthy. you just don't think leblanc is healthy

Don't put words in my mouth, makes you look stupid. I think Leblanc is fi e. Her waveclear sucka though.

Having to use a fair amount of Mana and at least two spell's for decent waveclear isn't good. Granted its a relitivley fair balance to her blow people up-ness, but she's not even good at that in meta currently, and fell off a bit before that.

Anyways you are making it sound lime you want all champs to either be shitty at waveclear or only be able to wave clear or poke, but not both.

That would make lane pretty boring. Especially at LCS where its mostly waveclearimg forever anyways and LCS is important to riot so they don't want it any more boring.

And lastly I fail so see the problem with champs having good wave clear. Wave control is a strategic part of the game and should be rewarded not punished. If someone is pushing hard this leaves them open to ganks as well.

I don't think we need to start nerfing wave clear on ap champs on top of everything else. Just another thing to pointlessly complain about.

If these boards were listened to EVERYTHING except towers would be needed to the ground.

Affinity22 votes

{quoted}

Don't put words in my mouth, makes you look stupid. I think Leblanc is fi e. Her waveclear sucka though.

Having to use a fair amount of Mana and at least two spell's for decent waveclear isn't good. Granted its a relitivley fair balance to her blow people up-ness, but she's not even good at that in meta currently, and fell off a bit before that.

Anyways you are making it sound lime you want all champs to either be shitty at waveclear or only be able to wave clear or poke, but not both.

That would make lane pretty boring. Especially at LCS where its mostly waveclearimg forever anyways and LCS is important to riot so they don't want it any more boring.

And lastly I fail so see the problem with champs having good wave clear. Wave control is a strategic part of the game and should be rewarded not punished. If someone is pushing hard this leaves them open to ganks as well.

I don't think we need to start nerfing wave clear on ap champs on top of everything else. Just another thing to pointlessly complain about.

If these boards were listened to EVERYTHING except towers would be needed to the ground.

uhhhh????? how would is wave clear interesting? wave clear by its definition is boring. your argument is lacking support. consider revising it. I never said they can have either wave clear or poke.... sivir has both... she has healthy mana costs and a short aa range to stop her. I'm saying you cant be unhealthy.

leblancs wave clear is a tool even if you think its bad. it stil exists and has a time and place. its healthy

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Interesting post, thank you.

I do agree, having good wave clear is very nice to have on a champion and lacking it is a weakness not just in a lane on the rift but also very noticeable in ARAM. I hope Riot factors this into a champion's kit power balance.

Sorry I have nothing interesting to add to this, so this bump will have to do. XD

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