Do Mage Items Require Another Rework?

Chromatic Eagle·Apr 10, 2017·47 votes·2,910 views

While there will always be people unhappy with class reworks, I generally feel that their items are in a good or workable spot. Mage items don't feel that way to me.

I always felt like this item was intended to be the mage version of ER or IE. However, it's bought as a later item. Instead of it just being a power spike, why can't it fulfill a niche for certain mages?

is a very useful, but possibly generalized item. I've read people complain that other items suck in comparison, which is why they feel compelled to buy this. I also don't know if grievous wounds is good on an item that's a first buy. Should it be placed on ?

these items confuse me. Void Staff is an item that counters MR items (or even a lack of), but you need ap items to build instead of a MR item like . Liandry's is an item that burns health, but you need to build a MR item first. Compare them to AD items. all build out of long swords, and later on, can combine with Last Whisper into a stronger item.

I could be completely wrong here.

81 Comments

DeathBurstApr 10, 201746 votes

Do Mage Items Require Another Rework?

Short answer: IMHO, yes. But not because of the reasons you're talking about.

What mage items need is a proper framework. If you want to look at ADC items, you shouldn't make comparisons between items 1-to-1. Instead, look at the whole itemization set. ADC have core items ( item 3031 item 3153 item 3508 ), multipliers ( item 3094 item 3087 item 3085 item 3046 ), defensive options ( item 3812 item 3072 item 3139 ) and penetration items (and here it's a bit murky). The multipliers all build out of item 3086 , and the defensive options out of item 1053 . You have a clear path, and if you need it right now, you can always pick an early Zeal/Vamp scepter/Last Whisper and upgrade it later to the correct item depending on the situation.

There is no such structure for Mages. You have kind of similar categories, with Mana/Utility/Raw damage items, but it doesn't actually work out in practice. For instance, all the different Mana items build out of different components: Lost Chapter vs Catalyst vs Tear. Some of the utility items build out of Blasting Wand, some out of Fiendish Codex (and all give different amounts of AP). If you want damage right now and buy a Needlessly Large Rod, you're not really sure you'll work it into your full build later. It's just a huge horrible mess. And while we're talking about that, I really don't understand why Riot introduced the hextech items in the previous rework. They just added even more mess to the already horribly messy itemization, without a clear purpose.

So in the end, what we need is not changing a few details here and there to get into a slightly less terrible spot. What we need is another extensive rework that creates the structure we currently lack. There should probably be a unified "mana component", two families of mid-tiers items with or without CDR and different utility passives, and a few defining, core items probably all built out of Needlessly Large Rod. I could probably spend a few hours drafting some ideas, but I've got work to do and it's Riot's job anyway ;)

5000000000000000Apr 10, 20175 votes

This is a really cool idea! Wish you'd make a post on C&C.

DeathBurstApr 11, 20172 votes

OK, given this post got a much more positive reaction than I anticipated, I might find some time to do it next week. But you sure C&C is the best board? I would have made a post here in Gameplay with a [Theorycraft] tag or something...

Chromatic EagleApr 11, 20171 votes

Why not both?

Chromatic EagleApr 10, 201713 votes

Please feel free to make your own thread and comment more on this.

TurquoiseYoshiApr 10, 20172 votes

I was gonna comment something similar, but this does it much better. I feel like Riot just needs to start from scratch, see what they really need for AP item Tier 2 components, and put everything together properly instead of the mangled mess that we have now.

dunder killApr 10, 201718 votes

Void Staff is better than LW. Reason being is that LW only affects bonus armor. It does jack shit against squishies and the base stats of tanks/bruisers. Thats why nobody really touches it until like a 4th item. Void affects total MR which makes it a good option for bursting squishies as well as extra damage against tanks.

item 3123 is just stupid and needs to be changed. Instant unconditional GW for 800g is fucking stupid

JbelsApr 10, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Void Staff is better than LW. Reason being is that LW only affects bonusarmor. It does jack shit against squishies and the base stats of tanks/bruisers. Thats why nobody really touches it until like a 4th item. Void affects *total MR which makes it a good option for bursting squishies as well as extra damage against tanks.

is just stupid and needs to be changed. Instant unconditional GW for 800g is fucking stupid

If it didn't, champions like Vlad, Mundo, and other healing monstrosities would run around completely unhindered

dunder killApr 10, 20178 votes

GW is fine, bt unconditional access for 800g is ridiculous. If they change it and Vlad becomes a problem, then can adjust him. Other than that plenty of champions get hard countered by 800g. You mentioned Mundo, he's one of them

woodvsmurphApr 10, 20172 votes

vlad would not be impossible if you had to upgrade lastwhisper item to get grievous - mundo would be a much bigger pain though. Honestly mundo needs reworked passive or something. Perhaps requring mundo to be in combat with enemy champ(s) to get his passive would go a long way towards making him less crazy; he's either broken and meta, or useless it seems with his current state. Making his passive only activate when in combat with enemy champs wouldn't hurt his teamfighting mid-late game, but it would make him more punishable early game - forcing him to either hide and spam cleavers like he currently does at cost of no passive hp regen (so he could get chunked out from repeated quick trades and tower dove) or fight his opponent while farming early on (like a big "tough" mundo should) and get the hp regen but be taking more damage from his opponent due to being constantly in the fight rather than hiding behind cleaver throws.

Hinagiku33Apr 11, 20171 votes

...If Mundo hits his lane opponent with his cleavers, doesn't that mean he would be in combat with them and get the healing same as now?

It punishes Mundos that can't hit their cleavers, but it already kinda does that since he is spending health and not getting anything for it. I guess it would sorta stop him from last-hitting from range with cleavers, but it feels pretty bad to rip out his only fallback pattern when he is behind in lane.

woodvsmurphApr 11, 20171 votes

Yes, if you allow for cleaver cd time to be the time required between taking and/or dealing damage to count as still being in combat. Think about how they made changes to fervor to make it last longer before stacks fall off. Now do the reverse with mundo passive - so simply spamming cleavers does not activate it or... only hitting champs with cleavers counts. Otherwise, you have an excellent point.

5000000000000000Apr 10, 20176 votes

Void Staff is technically stronger than Last Whisper (just looking at pen, ignoring AD/AP), but we have to realize that things like Black Cleaver exists too. Mpen overall is weaker.

Cosmic WarperApr 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Void Staff is better than LW. Reason being is that LW only affects bonus armor. It does jack shit against squishies and the base stats of tanks/bruisers. Thats why nobody really touches it until like a 4th item. Void affects total MR which makes it a good option for bursting squishies as well as extra damage against tanks.

is just stupid and needs to be changed. Instant unconditional GW for 800g is fucking stupid

void staff has to be better than any armor pen by design because magic damage champions by design are usually less sustained damage oriented and are gated by mana and cooldowns.

ZeinApr 10, 20179 votes

Mage items are in desperate need of another rework. Besides morello, they all feel lackluster or slot inefficient especially anti ad which is not existent right now. Unfortunately, mages are still very strong in competitive (syndra,orianna,cassiopeia,taliyah) which means its better not to expect any changes soon. Support itemization is worse right now since only redemption and locket are good and with the tank update 2 patches away mage and support itemization changes isnt gonna get changed soon.

JbelsApr 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Mage items are in desperate need of another rework. Besides morello, they all feel lackluster or slot inefficient especially anti ad which is not existent right now. Unfortunately, mages are still very strong in competitive (syndra,orianna,cassiopeia,taliyah) which means its better not to expect any changes soon. Support itemization is worse right now since only redemption and locket are good and with the tank update 2 patches away mage and support itemization changes isnt gonna get changed soon.

That's a case of the champion being obscenely strong to the point of items not really mattering. The pros have optimal build paths they follow, but if the items were suddenly all reworked, you could literally function the same on those champions with them

underscores222Apr 10, 20179 votes

Mages used to have 3 basic mana regen items they could reasonably build - tear, chalice, and morello's evil tome. Tear worked because you could build additional ap/mana items and double down on the mana's usefulness (rod, lych bane, etc). Chalice was great for the mana regen passive, MR, and CDR. Evil Tome was a less good version of morellonomicon, but it was fair and reasonable - you'd get it mostly for the grievous wounds.

Now chalice is a support item - or at least has a funky heal passive for shielding allies. Tear is arguably better as it is easier to stack, but lost synergy with rod, which now gives less AP, health and mana in return for a passive that most mages don't get full use out of (works really good for melee mages and swain though)

Morelonomicon it top tier - it gives everything a mage could want and more - mana, ap, cdr. The grievous wounds is just a nice bonus. As it is the only AP/mana item that makes sense for most mages to buy, it is undeniably the most popular.

The only other major complaint I have about mage builds is CDR - it is too easy to get (not just a mage problem) While I understand the reasoning - lower AP on most items but grant more CDR results in less burst and more abillities used in team fights, I think it has caused some unintentional power shifts and is more effective on certain champs

GrReaper96Apr 10, 20176 votes

The problem with item 3070 item 3027 combo is that the power spike comes very late when getting these 2 items. Most champions are better off with item 3165 combo or just skip tear and rush

item 3165 Is honestly loaded right now. They need to move the grievous somewhere else, where manales ap champs would actually have a reason to get it.

CDR is too easy to get on all roles, not just mages

underscores222Apr 10, 20173 votes

That's my point - tear rod was a late-game mana play that paid off. Now it doesn't - mages are basically locked into morello as the only viable mana option. There used to be multiple viable options for mana management, now there is only one.

"CDR - it is too easy to get (not just a mage problem)"

koshkyraApr 10, 20179 votes

item 3116 needs to be reverted, it's a really weak item now

The rest are probably fine, item 3027 was op and needed a nerf so they fixed it

But yeah, item 3116 shouldn't have been nerfed so hard. It lost 25% of its AP and health, and the slow is less than half of what it used to be.

SukishooApr 10, 20174 votes

That's because everyone was rushing item 3116 so it became way too strong the way it was.

woodvsmurphApr 10, 20175 votes

item 3153 does 8% current hp - no on-hit slow required ; item 3151 only does 2% current hp PER SECOND (multiple spells or autos don't increase rate of damage like with bork) - reaching a whopping 4% current hp IF you apply a slow. Either buff the ap to 100, double the magic pen (via scaling or it would be busted first item rumble) or increase burn to 4% and 8% if slows are applied.

item 3156 at least a 300hp shield and ad goes up from 50 to 70 when passive activates; item 3157 merely get 2.5 sec invulnerability - hardly seems like the items are equal

Could add more examples but...

Weasel KenseiApr 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

does 8% current hp - no on-hit slow required ; only does 2% current hp PER SECOND (multiple spells or autos don't increase rate of damage like with bork) - reaching a whopping 4% current hp IF you apply a slow. Either buff the ap to 100, double the magic pen (via scaling or it would be busted first item rumble) or increase burn to 4% and 8% if slows are applied.

at least a 300hp shield and ad goes up from 50 to 70 when passive activates; merely get 2.5 sec invulnerability - hardly seems like the items are equal

Could add more examples but...

item 3151 does 2%... per second. For 3 seconds.

Its base health burn is around 6%. Most mages that pick it up have spells that have CC attached, so they burn you for 12% of your current health when they do.

So if you land say a rank 5 Q from Morgana, it will be doing 4% of your current health a second for 3 seconds (same duration as her Q) totaling 12%. Now in practice its actually a bit less than that because the health is ticking down making the values lower than the previous tick of damage.

But when we compare the capacity for a mage to inflict this burn over an area, they blow the 8% of the Bork out of the water. I find the burn to be fairly effective for DPS and poke mages, less effective for burst mages.

I feel like L. Torment is in a good spot, one of my favorite items, its just not for every champ.

Votable JesterApr 10, 20173 votes

But when we compare the capacity for a mage to inflict this burn over an area, they blow the 8% of the Bork out of the water. I find the burn to be fairly effective for DPS and poke mages, less effective for burst mages.

Cough item 3085 Cough

Weasel KenseiApr 10, 20171 votes

While I see the point youre trying to make, that brings a second item into the equation.

This was about item 3153 VS item 3151 and the ability to inflict % current HP damage.

Adding in a second item is throwing a lot more into the comparison, its why I left out situations involving item 3151 item 3116 ...

You know, cause that would be then comparing one item to a combination of items... oh... cough...

Votable JesterApr 10, 20171 votes

I was kinda joking, but you were also including champion interaction with the item. In that case there's also Twitch who can apply botrk to as many or more champions with each auto as a mage can apply Liandry's with each spell.

Weasel KenseiApr 10, 20171 votes

Yes, that one champion, during a certain period of time can in that specific instance do that... That ONE champion that there can only be one of in a match (ignoring blind dumpsterfire).

Karma Morgana Ziggs Lux and lots of others can get multi champ hits with a single ability. Though its not core on all those champs, sometimes they build it to deal with really high HP champs. Then theres this f***** Fiddlesticks that can hit your whole team every few seconds...

As for interaction, the only way either of those items do their %HP damage is via interaction, just that L. Torment has caveat champ interaction (movement impairment) for it to work, so it was sort of required.

Brings in another issue I left out, L. Torment is often applied further away (and with that AoE) making reprisal difficult or impossible without dying.

My mainl point is that the two items are overall comparable, and woodvsmurph statements regarding L.T. were perhaps either from a misunderstanding or downplayed too much.

woodvsmurphApr 11, 20171 votes

If you are oblivious enough to stand in morg's pool, then you deserve to lose. She can only bind one person at a time except with ult - where you stay spread and kite in different directions - she should never lock down more than 2 people with second proc of ult and likely cannot land pool on both of them - leaving it essentially single target liandri's burn in almost every scenario.

Brand, yes - he's annoying and didn't deserve the buff he got with the mage update. But that has nothing to do with liandri's anymore than twitch ult has to do with bork. Karma? Get 3+ items, she is weak. If she is rushing liandri's, there's something wrong with her. Ziggs? It's either a very late-game item, or he is sacrificing: raw ap, mana to continue casting spells, defense. Exploit this. Lux? Same as ziggs - most likely a 5th item to supplement her natural lack of ability to deal meaningful damage to tanks. Gapclose, cc, delete her. If you cannot do this, it's because you probably drafted very poorly AND are already way too behind - she could do what she is doing even if liandri's didn't exist.

Weasel KenseiApr 12, 20171 votes

You know Morg can throw her W in a teamfight, and because of lockdown, you dont always get a choice of moving, also, her ult hits a lot of people... twice sometimes even... Its pretty much how champs like Illaoi use their ult in teamfights.

I honestly dont know why you bothered to write all that nonsense at me. Its like you didnt read the following sentence "Though its not core on all those champs..." and started typing up your response after you saw those champ pictures on a post about L.T. and couldnt help yourself.

Actually your post is pretty moronic argument bait... no sense continuing to respond to a post telling me why something isnt super good on champs I said its not core on now is there? G'day.

woodvsmurphApr 12, 20171 votes

There is a difference between "not core" and rarely/never built. For instance, deathcap is "not core" on any mage; however, it is commonly built by mages depending on the scenario. Zhonya is common, but not core on champs besides maybe rumble and some very non-meta champs. Yet again, it is commonly built. So... yeah.[slayer-jinx-unamused]

woodvsmurphApr 11, 20171 votes

A FEW ap champs have reliably consistently spammable cc to apply the full effect of liandri's - most can only apply the slow maybe twice in an extended fight without having to build rylai's too.
When you consider raw ap and damage from spells, liandri's actually probably does about 8-10% of a champs hp IF slow is applied AND the enemy was full hp to begin with.
In pretty much every situation, liandri's ap only buffs spell damage - bork ad buffs autos AND spell damage - doubly so for on-hit spells like ezreal q. Thus while liandri's gives more raw ap than bork does ad - the fact that bork ad buffs autos AND spells basically negates any raw number difference. Don't forget bork also gives attack speed.
Mages are made for burst - adc's are made for dps - mages SHOULD be more frontloaded in their damage.
10% lifesteal plus a slow for a champ that gets the most peeling and generally hardest to reach champ in the game. This goes way further in mid-late game teamfights than a whopping 300hp on a target who cannot really afford actual resistances without sacrificing damage.

Can liandri's be good? Yes. Should it go back up in price and have better scaling? Yes.

They killed mage scaling into late game for all but a few champs. Now they are doing the same thing with tanks. Leaving adc's still strong in the early and mid game via bork, black cleaver type builds while outscaling every other champ in the game. Unless you are an adc main who wants to have to solo outcarry the enemy adc every game that lasts longer than 30 min without one side being way ahead, you should be crying out for Riot to come to their senses and stop nerfing every damn item in the game not made for adc's and claiming the change is good just because the item is now cheaper.

Weasel KenseiApr 12, 20171 votes

Grats, AP only enhances abilities, and AD enhances autos and abilities.... Sun rises in the East, sets in the west. Duh.

You made a post where you tried to downplay L.T. vs Bork as far as the health burn goes.

You speak as if mages are getting kicked in the teeth daily. Check a win % chart, the number of AD and Ap champs in the top 20 is mixed, and some of those are even considered straight mages. Brand one of my favorites is doing ok, but not as good as other AP champs.

I think youre feeling like a victem, and it is true that AP champs have had a lot of item nerfs and AD offense/defense itemization is a bit silly. But its not like AP champs have fallen to disuse. Snap out of it.

woodvsmurphApr 12, 20171 votes

I main toplane - playing mostly bruisers and tanks. So in could I be feeling "kicked in the teeth" except when I play rumble top. Not that I generally do. I am not some mage main arguing that ap is dead. I am simply explaining how ap item changes have made mages much weaker late game than they traditionally have been in MOST cases. Now 5-6 items, adc's alone have the greatest influence. Sure adc's have almost always been the late game carry, but you also had the 6 item midlaner who would delete anyone other than a tank if someone miss-positions. Now enemies can build full damage assassins and have more than enough mr to 1v1 or teamfight ignore the enemy mid and delete them.

Sorry but if rengar or khaz want to stand on equalizer and fight a rumble and cait for example, he shouldn't be able to kill rumble and cait 1v2 through zhonya while tanking full damage from both of them, then kill cait, then run off over 25%hp for example. Not when he isn't even ahead of the rumble. Ad mr items are too strong in comparison to their one ap armor counterpart. Armor pen options are very diverse and strong AND more easily fit people's build paths than magic pen items. As a toplane bruiser or tank, I should be buying item 3065 for the mr - not simply to buff my lifesteal or hp regen. If I tank the full combo of a burst enemy mid in early/mid game teamfights, my hp should be hurting - I shouldn't be dead, but I should definitely feel it. In late game, sure if I have mr beyond item 3111 I shouldn't be suffering too hard, but squishies shouldn't get away with item 3814 or item 3156 and be able to completely ignore enemy burst mage full combo and wreck them in teamfights while having no other "defensive" items. If building maw let's kha ignore enemy lux damage when he gets caught or syndra full combo, then building zhonya should be doing much the same for lux and syndra vs the enemy kha; but this does not hold even remotely true. P.S. I don't play lux or syndra. I am merely speaking from seeing this in games - games where kha has been on my team, and where he's been on the other team. There are other champs besides kha I can use as an example too, but I feel he's been so common this season that it is an example everyone can relate to.

StandgroundingApr 10, 20173 votes

In addition, the ADs have more %health item 3748 item 1416 , a friggin spell shield item 3814 and cc removal item 3139 ...

And armor shred item 3071 , even true damage that scales off of physical pen item 3147

2 types of damage reductions/burst reduction item 3046 item 3812 STRONG slow on demand item 3022 etc

woodvsmurphApr 11, 20171 votes

Well I don't see much item 3812 .

item 3147 only applies for 4 sec after being in vision of enemy, so the true damage passive actually goes unused by most adc's besides Vayne or Twitch with their stealth or possibly Jhin with his ult. Other than that, adc's don't really actually make much use of the passive true damage.

But the rest are valid points for most champs rather than rare exceptions.

GrReaper96Apr 10, 20172 votes

Just give item 3116 back its 400 hp and perhaps 80 ap would be enough to make it ok again

Big LincolnApr 10, 20177 votes

I'd like to see Liandry separated into two guise paths. One for the squishy killing power with flat pen and one focused on adding extra damage to tanks

Morello is too abundant in stats but that's how Riot designs core items now (see Cleaver) so we'll just have to deal with it for now

Might be a good idea to reintroduce DFG as the tank buster item it was originally intended to be.

MangelinaJolieApr 10, 20173 votes

The issue with any of this, and I believe Riot has stated so recently, is that mages are currently too effective at dealing with tanks. They aren't meant to be. The burn damage from Liandry's is surprisingly effective against squishies. Just look at why Zyra was a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with Liandry's. It's niche isn't intended to be tank killing - it's a sustained damage amp for champions who can utilize it like Brand and poke/siege champions.

BorblandApr 10, 20177 votes

The things that bothers me with the mage update is that they didnt include any new mage item, ( item 3152 item 3030 are more AP bruiser items, none of them are really effective on your classic mages), while when item 3285 was realeased, that was a true mage item.

Pommel KnightApr 10, 20177 votes

Sad thing is lundens was intended to be a compensation item for ap assassins when deathfire was removed.

SqkergApr 10, 20173 votes

No, it wasn't, the compensation was specific buffs to people who used them.

Hinagiku33Apr 11, 20172 votes

I do recall Red posts at the time saying that Luden's was the replacement item for Deathfire. Riot explicitly wanted to fill the item 1058 slot to not reduce the number of options AP champs had, but also wanted an item that AP assassins like Katarina Akali Leblanc Ahri would like (especially because Kat and Akali are manaless and already locked out of buying item 3003 so they had almost no options at all).

It wasn't meant to be exclusive to assassins, but AP assassins were the focus...which is why the item has a Movement Speed boost, to let it be a rush item that facilitates assassin roaming.

Obviously, the ability to apply the proc safely from range is far superior so it became common on mages. The fact that the bonus AoE damage of the proc let mages full-clear waves earlier than intended certainly didn't help. It's not really a surprise that it became popular on ranged, immobile mages, but it was intended to help AP assassins post DFG.

SociopathFriendApr 10, 20174 votes

is a very useful, but possibly generalized item. I've read people complain that other items suck in comparison, which is why they feel compelled to buy this. I also don't know if grievous wounds is good on an item that's a first buy.

It's not that they suck per say- it's mainly about mana. Mana regen has been focused entirely around support items- so what items gives flat mana? Anything that builds from item 3010 - so item 3030 item 3152 item 3027 Anything that builds from item 3024 so item 3110 item 3025 And anything that builds from item 3070 so item 3004 item 3003

The only ones that have CDR as a stat (something Mages need more than any other class) are the Glacial Shroud items- which are the last thing most Mages want to build as it gives them almost no damage and the given armor is negligible without health. By offering CDR and flat mana alone, Morell becomes the logical choice. Throw in the AP and nothing else comes close to as useful as this one buy if you need CDR, which most Mages will.

What we need are more things that build out of item 3802 . Then you can have more mana options since regen has been decided to be a Support thing.

NineTailedMysticApr 11, 20172 votes

Protobelt gives 10% CDR due to building out of Kindlegem.

Regardless, I think the contrary. We need to remove Lost Chapter, or at least remove the 20% max Mana restore on level up. It utterly trivializes Mana management for 900g.

SociopathFriendApr 12, 20171 votes

I will admit I have never built Protobelt so I didn't know that.

chipndip1Apr 10, 20174 votes

The game needs more items in general, in a way. Too many "general" items that just cover all champs at the same time.

CasterGilgameshApr 10, 20173 votes

IMO Mage items need a giant update.Give more Mana options for mages so it would be valid to actually build around item 3003 .

NineTailedMysticApr 11, 20172 votes

Seraph's already gives the most AP in the game late game.

Chromatic EagleApr 11, 20171 votes

It does?

HeresyHorusApr 10, 20173 votes

both mages and their items need reworks.

forcing 90% of mages to either rush item 3165 1st item or fail to function is bullshit.

item 3165 is overloaded the way it is because without it 90% mages will fail to function.

90% of mages will need a lot of buffs to their ratios, mana base & regen, mana costs and cooldowns if u want to rework item 3165 and mages item paths.

i heared that all of this was because of RIOT made a LOT of mana and CD fiddling shit in just 1 patch but i dont know for sure and i dont want to know because i am happy with my AD champs now.