@Riot: Can we get CONTEXT on Tristana's passive nerf? You didn't explain it at all.
Topic.
Topic.
She still has the highest base attack range in the game after lvl 16 with the range maxing out at 669. I believe the change was made because a lot of spells have a cast range of 700. with her previous max range of 735 she could technically always stay out of their range while still attacking, now she needs to pay a bit more attention to positioning/orb walking.
Although I would still like their context for this change not just my guess.
You realise that cast range is calculated different ftom attack range anyway?Cast range is center to center, attack range is edge to edge.
Depending on the size of the respective champions, AAs generally have 200 additional range or so. Less for yordles, more for Juggernauts.
So she still has that advantage.
Hence justifying the nerf?
No just saying that can't be the reason, at least not for 700 range spells.
Attack range is edge to edge, but you have to look at spell ranges on a case by case basis.
She still has the highest base attack range in the game after lvl 16 with the range maxing out at 669. I believe the change was made because a lot of spells have a cast range of 700. with her previous max range of 735 she could technically always stay out of their range while still attacking, now she needs to pay a bit more attention to positioning/orb walking.
Although I would still like their context for this change not just my guess.
kog twitch and jinx have more range with w/r/q respectively. jinx is pretty much always gonna have q up until bruiser try to engage. kog not gonna fight without w. a good twitch wont get too close unless he has the means to stay alive without using max range with his ult. that being said, her new kit gives her potentially a bigger chance to snowball, only problem is it's not reliable dmg. still would rather have her old kit, but i say in bronze-> gold you can wreck bot if you know how to play trist also, don't forget she still has some of the highest mobility among adc, which is prolly why they nerfed her range, but with that logic, they should prolly nerf ez q or e.
Well....they did nerf Ez, really hard may I add.
Also, Trist had more than just mobility. She also had an amazing self-peel and also a permanently high range once she reaches late game. While in early game, her range isn't that low, but standard.
I think it's pretty obvious by now, but while the rework was to make her kit more interesting and actually give her some damn AD ratio finally, they still had the intention of nerfing her because no matter how you looked at it, pre-rework Trist was one of the best ADC thanks to her safety.
against most champs she's pretty safe, but there are a lot of champs that can beat her kit just because of the way her escape and self peel works. a large number of champs have abilities that let them dodge buster shot (yi, vi, mao, vlad, yasuo, and prolly some more im forgetting) her w can be interrupted by any knockup. in all reality, ez was prolly as good or better, due to the fact that his q always had longer range than trist normal aa. plus ez could always just go gauntlet and have just as much self peel between q-gauntlet proc and his e. not to mention, the champs i listed that could break buster shot can typically kill her thru her jump just because of how slow it takes to cast.
From what I've seen, her new jump comes out much faster, but takes longer to fly to the landing area (basically, it looks like her overall jump time is unchanged, but it starts sooner). Maybe it is just how the new visuals make it look, but if the coding itself changed to match, then that is actually a buff since it would make it easier to insta jump away without the start-up animation.
If that's true (the cast time being reduced) then that would actually be a nerf when considering how you could use that cast time to ignore CC. Just like how Ez can E away after being knocked up by pulverize, Trist could too. My favorite thing to do in lanes against Blitzcrank is leap away just as I got hit by the grab to negate the effect, and if I failed and ended up getting grabbed I would just rocket jump out of his knockup.
I have a feeling it isn't really changed and is mostly just how the animation looks though.
Having lept out of a ww ult, I assure you that you can still "ignore" cc
Also, her E can be used to damage towers now.
*her previous max range was 703, not 735 ;)
She still has the highest base attack range in the game after lvl 16 with the range maxing out at 669. I believe the change was made because a lot of spells have a cast range of 700. with her previous max range of 735 she could technically always stay out of their range while still attacking, now she needs to pay a bit more attention to positioning/orb walking.
Although I would still like their context for this change not just my guess.
iirc Jinx's range with max Q was only 7 below lvl 18 tristana... So if my math is right, she is not the longest range.
She still has the highest base attack range in the game after lvl 16 with the range maxing out at 669. I believe the change was made because a lot of spells have a cast range of 700. with her previous max range of 735 she could technically always stay out of their range while still attacking, now she needs to pay a bit more attention to positioning/orb walking.
Although I would still like their context for this change not just my guess.
Starting at 16 is useless.
By then it doesnt even matter.
The nerf is absolutely huge, beyond even the scaling ASP nerf.
At level 18, Tristana has 19 more range than Caitlyn. Which is effectively nothing.
I would like to say it is a trade off to the ability to use her E on towers now. (Crazy dmg from it btw) But let's be honest. Riot CANNOT say why they change things. If they do, and turns out it was wrong ("we don't want Cass to be a lane bully" Cass is now a bigger lane bully, ect...) they get a lot of heat for it.
Wasn't the previous issue with CAss that she was a lane bully with no chance to fight back? If you stayed back, you got hit with a strong poison, if you jumped in you got hit with several Es. It wasn't the lane bullying so much as it was the frustration the pattern caused.
The "counter play" argument you mean? Where she was safe and did too much dmg just by being her. I don't know if you have played vs any Cass after her rework. But she is VERY close in over all game play. There are differences, but she was like older Rennekton. Where she was a strong lane bully and really kinda fell off late. But with her rework she is now a strong lane bully and a hyper-carry at the same time. In short, there is a little be more counter play, but she still does everything she did before but better late as well. (kinda sounds odd)
I have, yes. I have found her easier to deal with.
Firstly, the little counterplay Cassiopeia required skill. It wasn't just because it was Cassiopeia, I want to make that clear.
Secondly, yes, she is very close in overall gameplay but the little changes maks a big difference. The added counterplay makes it possible for me to play against a skilled Cassiopeia. Yes, she is still strong, possibly stronger. I still have to be careful around her, but now I have fallback options if I get behind, which makes it far less frustrating.
Finally... WHAT?! She was a hypercarry before as well if you actually used your E rather than just poked (melted, really) with poisons.
Ha, no. What I meant on the last one was what Stashu stated as his intended goal of the rework. He said he wanted her less lane bully and more hyper-carry. That was my over all point. Their argument/stated reasons for changes don't always align.
My point was that that isn't what Stashu said. Stashu said that her pattern as a lane bully was unhealthy and that they wanted to further emphasize her hyper-carry position... I think... I have no source, so can't be sure...
But either way they've made her into a strong lane bully AND a hypercarry. So regardless of what Stashu said we have the results of their changes and we still have a very similar lane bully (maybe a little nerfed I'm not really one to say) with hyper scaling potential.
Here's an example of that hyperscaling potential. 1488 AP.
Here's an example of that hyperscaling potential. 1488 AP.
no magic pen
Magic pen is for little Baaaabies
[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EHpYGhf0,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-29T16:24:32.842+0000)
Magic pen is for little Baaaabies
well... can't argue with that logic.
But either way they've made her into a strong lane bully AND a hypercarry. So regardless of what Stashu said we have the results of their changes and we still have a very similar lane bully (maybe a little nerfed I'm not really one to say) with hyper scaling potential.
the attack speed nerf is fucking huge.
They're talking about 
They're talking about
why exactly are they talking about cass in a non-cass thread .-.
Riot keeps talking about champion identity, but these recent changes are actually detracting from Trist's identity and making her lose uniqueness.
The most reliable long-range siege hypercarry, who wrecks faces IF she can get the game to that point.
But now with the changes
Why shouldn't I just stop playing Trist in favor of Cait now? Much less situational. -same mobility -same pushing capability -more useful R (assuming you postiion well enough to not need Trist R as a pretty high cooldown last defense) -traps useful all game (unlike trist whose E loses usefulness lategame) -instant range -can lane bully much better
E has a stupid high AD ratio on it (which can be further increased with attacks) and blasts enemies and towers in an AOE, It is now her core ability and doesn't fall off at all anymore. I do agree that they changed a lot about her identity, but a lot of it had to happen eventually, and whether you or I or anyone loves or hates it is pretty irrelevant to the games overall health. If she needs buffs, they'll buff her, if not, then she be fine.
I'd assume it's because her new E active is significantly more damaging out of laning than its predecessor, seeing as it actually has an AD ratio now.
Power shifts need power, and that power has to come from somewhere in the power budget
her range is lower?
they changed her passive from 9 range per level to 7 range per level; she used to have 703 range at max level, now she gets 669 at max level
She looks like a feral monkey.
[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EHpYGhf0,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-28T20:13:35.312+0000)
She looks like a feral monkey.
just like ur mom
They changed her because they liked watching that one guy jump aggressively with her into fights at Worlds last year, and want more "Give me something to talk about!" moments from her; instead of the standard talking point of "Tristana will win the game at the 45 minute mark!".
The explanation is quite simple.
With her improved mid-game (due to E actually scaling with AD), her improved pushing power (E active is now AoE) and her new unique strength of tower-busting (only non-AA-modifying skill that I am aware of that can target towers), she had to give up some of her late-game strength as the single safest one of the hypercarries. So, instead of trying to target her damage output, they target her safety, by forcing her to move a little closer to the action.
Despite this, she still is the safest hypercarry, between her resetting repositioning tool, her AoE selfpeel and her still quite high range.
Rammus ult damage structures and isn't an AA-modifying skill, but it isn't targeted as Tristana's is.
I forgot Azir, for whom the W skill is targeted and damages towers.
Pre-update
's biggest design flaw was her extreme safety. Not only could she dash away and knock you back if you came too close, but she was also perfectly fine with pinging you from 700+ units away, whereas even
and
have costs or downtimes to their range. With a range nerf, even AD Trist is going to have to use her self-peel and mobility more often, and AP Trist will have to start her combo at a slightly riskier range in addition to jumping onto her target. She still ends up with the best permanent range in the game, except she's a bit more reachable now.
Tristana after the rework seems like a lot of her damage comes from stacking e… it has a huge damage potential with huge ratios if she can stack it all the way (MAXIMUM PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 120 / 140 / 160 / 180 / 200 (+ 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 / 220% bonus AD) (+ 100% AP) having the pre nerf range would be somewhat ridiculous as she could just stand a billion miles away while stacking her e and doing even more damage than pre rework trist as she still has the huge attk speed buff, mobility and self peel !! the passive nerf imo seems like a tradeoff for more damage at more risk… its not as if she's been gutted she still has the amazing self peel and mobility and huge steroids while the nerf is regardless rlly severe as she can't be as safe as before i kind of think her new kit seems more fun and rewarding to get full stacks and to blow people up rather than the old dot and longer range
Though lower than before I think she will still function as a hyper carry. Still, context would be appreciated.
Considering she just got a good dueling tool / tower killing move in her new E, they needed to make sure she wouldn't just be OP again with it. So they wanted her to be a little closer to danger to compensate.
Do you need an explanation?
Tristana was the hardest caring adc in the game simply due to her long range. Just means that there is going to be more levels that other adc will have a chance to get in range to counter poke her with AA. I still think she can do Barron outside of the pit (which in itself is still ridiculously safe on purple side)
I mean it sucks that they are taking some of her range away, but she will still be a very strong and safe pick in the right hands.
Because they didn't like Tristana's paradigm of "35-40 minutes in, I win". TBH that's one of the FEW changes they've made this season that actually makes sense, considering they improved her mid game and tower pushing quite considerably, and her early game could arguably be better or worse due to the way her E works.
She's still incredibly strong late game, just not as much.
Feels massively nerfed, Her new E is basically the new Twitch expunge where you actually need stacks to do damage, she loses grievious wounds too. Physical damage too
Ap Trist is dead Riot why do you make us hate you
I agree. Ap trist was the only trist i could play and now it feels like i cant do it anymore cause it just doesn't do anything now :P
I would rather they remove her E entirely and nerf her early game then get rid of her late game carry ability. That's why I chose trist.
Request granted....start E, use on enemy carry lvl 1, support stun win lane and proceed to dominate game. Anything else you need to know?