Darius Nerf Context and Overall Thoughts on His Rise to Power in Top Lane

l Helios l··10 votes·1,291 views

No, I'm not asking for context. I'm providing it, or at least what I would see as valid reasons for the Darius Q nerf. It's the culmination of two big factors: other top laner nerfs and Darius's accessibility as a champion.

Here's the thing: Darius has soared in popularity recently as the premier bully in top lane. A lot of this is due to Riot's recent trend with popular top laners. Riot nerfed every decent top lane tank except Poppy (Trundle, Ekko {thank God}, pretty sure Maokai got hit too, etc.) and left the vacuum open for Darius to walk right in. Further, after Tri-Force champs caught popularity with the attack speed change, Irelia got nerfed. Then, Gnar and Shen got nerfed. Gangplank had already been nerfed about 20 times by this point, and Fiora got the same treatment. And now they're nerfing Poppy too, along with Kennen, which just ensured his superiority. Moreover, Darius plays well into Yasuo top lane, who has also grown in popularity. All these factors contributed to both a high pick rate (2nd highest top lane) and high ban rate (2nd highest top lane).

The other issue is the fact that Darius himself is not a complex champion. I main him, and I'm comfortable saying that. He's nowhere near the complexity of Orianna or Azir, which increases the ease in newcomers picking him up, which has been becoming a thing. His pick rate started to increase due to public perception that he's the best top laner early and scales decently into late game. He lacks late utility, but makes up for it in teamfight presence, which both Poppy and Kennen provided the former in teamfights. This, in turn, led to an increased ban rate because, fact of the matter is, Darius is a superior pick in the lane due to his early pressure, late game presence in teamfights, and Ghost becoming standard on him top lane after it got buffed and Teleport got nerfed. The Telepot nerf meant that using it to get back to lane was just less efficient, which meant early laning against Darius got more dangerous since you couldn't take as many risky trades and think that you could just TP back and everything would be fine. Ghost buff also reduced the issue of low mobility in Darius, which increased both his lane presence and team fight presence. It's easier to land Q's if you're faster and it's easier to dive carries if you're faster.

All these factors have contributed to making Darius the optimal top laner for both experts on him and newcomers.

Now as to Riot's plan to take care of this:

> Q handle damage reduced to 35% from 50%.

So, I'm actually OK with it. Here's the thing: you shouldn't receive much reward for hitting the handle. You already don't get a stack of bleed, you don't get the heal, and the damage is already really low. Further reduction accomplishes reducing Darius's accessiblity to newer players on him. Most experienced Darius players aren't going to miss their Q blade very often, so it won't affect them very much beyond their opponent outplaying the blade, which is the entire mechanic of the Q. Reduce his openness to new players, and you reduce his viability on those new players, while also maintaining his efficiency on higher experience players.

That's my 2 cents. Honestly, it's a fair nerf. However, I am concerned about this trend of nerfing strong top laners. Every time a top laner becomes strong, they're almost instantly nerfed, unless they're Riven. I just wish other top laners would be buffed before we go to nerfing the strong ones, because all that does is reduce the efficiency of the role. This isn't even a top lane exclusive problem; we've seen it happen with Kindred, Warwick, and Sejuani in the jungle, Kalista in bot lane, Azir, Vlad, Malzahar, and probably several others mid lane. I'm probably not giving the balance team enough credit for their hard work, and I apologize for that. It's just I'm concerned about Darius. I'm willing to trust for a little while, but if they do to Darius what they did to Kindred or Kalista, then I'll probably be quite adamant about my displeasure in the direction the balance team is going. That's the nicest way I know how to say that.

Hope this discussion helps you guys understand why they're nerfing him.

Tl;dr The Darius nerf is acceptable because it reduces his efficiency on those who don't play him a lot, but I'm concerned he could get Azir'd if things keep going the way they have been with strong top laners.

33 Comments

Ahristocats5 votes

51% win rate WITH COLOSSUS is nowhere strong i'm sorry and the fact that "darius has no complexity" make it even more ok since he's not hard to play so people would end up doing good anyway

l Helios l1 votes

I disagree. I think he's quite strong. His winrate has peaked previously around 58% with Grasp. He also has an insanely high play rate, so of course his win rate will be affected by that. More games tends to mean a more normal win rate, with the exception of extreme cases.

Ahristocats6 votes

11%=high play rate?

you never saw caitlyn pick rate did you? darius is picked a lot but not enough to have his win rate going "normal"

darius win rate is 51% because he's balanced and doesn't need anything, "he's quite strong" can mean multiple things: -darius is overpowered which is untrue -darius is able to do his job and is balanced therefore strong, and other top laner needs to be like him aka renekton who is just garbage atm

[{quoted}](name=l Helios l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EH4PXknw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-10T23:27:28.499+0000)

His winrate has peaked previously around 58% with Grasp.

and it's 51% with his best keystone, your point?

l Helios l1 votes

Highest for top lane. Bested only by Riven, for the entirety of last patch and most of 6.23 as well.

I don't think he's overpowered, but I think he's strong. If you want to reduce the play rate he has, you nerf something that hurts newer players more than it would mains. That's exactly what the nerf is. I don't see any reason to be upset. Only thing I could see is that Riot would decide to continue needing him to Warwick status, which would be silly and unreasonable imo.

I don't fully know that we need to make Darius the standard for top lane like we did with Renekton is S3, simply because Renekton was honestly toxic at his strongest point. Darius has more counterplay than that, but I don't think it's fair to make him the base since his strengths are different from other champions and even other juggernauts like Nasus or Garen.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EH4PXknw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-10T23:25:23.181+0000)

51% win rate WITH COLOSSUS is nowhere strong i'm sorry and the fact that "darius has no complexity" make it even more ok since he's not hard to play so people would end up doing good anyway

So I'm going to have to educate you a little bit on math, specifically on decimals and where you should round.

For a decimal number, you round down if the decimal is lower than .5, you round up if it's .5 or higher.

Darius' win rate is 51.9%.

So you round up, making his win rate 52%.

You're welcome.

SquashCannon1 votes

{quoted}

So I'm going to have to educate you a little bit on math, specifically on decimals and where you should round.

For a decimal number, you round down if the decimal is lower than .5, you round up if it's .5 or higher.

Darius' win rate is 51.9%.

So you round up, making his win rate 52%.

You're welcome.

Even then thats hardly broken. And the way they're seeming to be going about nerfing him (his late game noxian might is up in the air in terms of value) is totally wrong. They should reiterate their stance in the juggy update and smooth his power curve to the conditional hyper carry but otherwise low utility meat shield.

30-200 noxian might with a normalized 10 ad per level on the proc instead of current erratic scale would accomplish this.

Handle nerf is fine, he should get punished hard for fucking up or simply getting outplayed.

xXRaichopXx4 votes

Upvoted because you are the only person that decided to actually make an educated, smart post. (Unlike some people)

l Helios l2 votes

Ty

l Dárius l2 votes

i almost died

l Helios l1 votes

xD

We'll make it through this. Together.

l Dárius l1 votes

im just glad its just his handle damage thankfully i looked at surrender@20 before having an anurism

thebloody72 votes

they are also reducing his early bonus ad from passive to 30 from 40 include that in the post pls

l Helios l1 votes

I haven't seen that on S@20. Link?

thebloody73 votes

A rioter confirmed it and I tried it in a custom game and it's nerfed :/

https://twitter.com/ManWolfAxeBoss/status/818972224946176001

l Helios l1 votes

Is that just the level 1 value or is it lowered at all levels?

So is the total AD given at level 18 lower as well, or is it just level 1 is nerfed.

thebloody72 votes

it breaks even at level 13 - 15 I'm not sure

l Helios l1 votes

Ok. It would depend on the amount it's lowered by, but if it's only 10 at each point until that point, I don't think it would be terrible. 10 AD would probably not be the decisive factor in a duel with a 5 stack Darius.

thebloody71 votes

20 dmg from passive is 30 dmg on ult which can honestly make a huge difference

l Helios l1 votes

I suppose that's fair. I'd have to look over the full numbers before I'd feel comfortable making a final call on it. You are right though.

ThugWalrus2 votes

Darius will never be Kalista'd or Azir'd. Those champs get wrecked because of how overloaded their kits are, and as a result they get weird nerfs like Kalista getting 90% of her ad on autos and whatnot. With Darius it's easy to simply adjust his numbers to make him fall more in line. I don't even think he's that overbearing right now, but hey what do I know.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Darius will never be Kalista'd or Azir'd. Those champs get wrecked because of how overloaded their kits are, and as a result they get weird nerfs like Kalista getting 90% of her ad on autos and whatnot. With Darius it's easy to simply adjust his numbers to make him fall more in line. I don't even think he's that overbearing right now, but hey what do I know.

His Q needs a rework, it's a 'dodge this or you lose the trade, no matter what, unless you take it on a shield', which is pretty unhealthy for something with a fairly large hitbox. It leaves him very vulnerable to those who can dodge it, but it means he's absolutely insane against those who can't, and sometimes even those who should be able to with lots of mobility, can't, due to a large model aka harder to dodge Q blade. Hard counters like Fiora exist, and things like Riven can outplay him if he's not smart, but against something like a JarvanIV ? Not much Jarvan can do besides E+Q away every time Darius Q's, and Darius Q has a much lower CD and mana cost. That's because if Jarvan goes in, he has absolutely no way to get out. Darius has a bigger slow, and will be able to pull off 3 autos before J4 gets away just accounting for his W slow. Add his grab into it, and J4 is fucked.

ThugWalrus1 votes

I think it's an interesting ability from an opponents perspective. You have to choose to dodge to the inside and then face Darius head-on afterwards or dodge to the outside and risk taking the full brunt of the damage + the bleed.

I agree there's not much Jarvan can do against it, and a lot of melee champions struggle against Darius, but some melee champs just get to crap on other melee champs. Riven, Fiora, Yasuo, and Darius are all different levels of this. There's a lot of examples of abilities that melee champs auto lose trades with if they don't dodge. Gangplank barrels, Riven Q + Stun + shield dash, Panth Q, Yasuo Dash + knockup + dash out etc. Darius seems especially bad due to his bleed, but being a lane bully is kind of his thing so I'm not that mad about it. If you're ever taking an extended trade against Darius in lane, you're going to lose it and that's his schtick. Jarven (although weak overall atm) gets to have a long-range engage or escape and an ult to trap priority targets, that's his schtick as a diver.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's an interesting ability from an opponents perspective. You have to choose to dodge to the inside and then face Darius head-on afterwards or dodge to the outside and risk taking the full brunt of the damage + the bleed.

I agree there's not much Jarvan can do against it, and a lot of melee champions struggle against Darius, but some melee champs just get to crap on other melee champs. Riven, Fiora, Yasuo, and Darius are all different levels of this. There's a lot of examples of abilities that melee champs auto lose trades with if they don't dodge. Gangplank barrels, Riven Q + Stun + shield dash, Panth Q, Yasuo Dash + knockup + dash out etc. Darius seems especially bad due to his bleed, but being a lane bully is kind of his thing so I'm not that mad about it. If you're ever taking an extended trade against Darius in lane, you're going to lose it and that's his schtick. Jarven (although weak overall atm) gets to have a long-range engage or escape and an ult to trap priority targets, that's his schtick as a diver.

Yes, but there's not much you can do against it for anyone with a big model. Also, did you say 'dodge Pantheon Q'. Ok, back to the point. You can dodge Yasuo's combo, Riven's combo, and GP's barrels with reactions and juking anywhere, and stay out of Panth's Q range, but Darius's Q is a big circle. You can't dodge it unless u run into Darius, which is exactly what he wants. And even then, you still can't dodge it sometimes because you're too slow and he's too fast and you're too big.

Yes, but Darius has way too many tools to keep his target there. It should be: I fucked up and traded with Darius for too long, instead of: I tried my hardest to get away but Darius fucked me with his slows and grab.

Fondling Gems1 votes

My 2 cents as a non Darius player.

So I like this for a big reason. Currently if I don't have mobility (Think Mao or something idk) so I can't dodge the Q. My options are

a) Get hit by the blade and put as much distance between us as possible.

  • Shitty option right? Luckily Riot put in a way to outplay!

b) Move in closer and take less damage/deny a heal. Cool right? Ohwait, Now I am next to the guy I am running from. What is that? An Auto you wouldn't have gotten before? Ok, I have now failed to deny a passive stack, took about the same amount of damage, and am closer to him than before. All I did was deny heal. Is his AA reset up? (Can you tell I don't play Darius?) Well now I also got slowed, took an additional stack, took same to more damage than full Q, and being slowed he can get a 3rd auto off on me, maybe proccing passive etc. Also gives more time for his other abilities to come off cd.

  • So what is boils down to is I can take it like a man or take half damage + a bit more to a lot more damage. Only denying a heal on him.

It felt bad, it felt like you had to second guess and were told to counterplay in X way while simultaneously screwing yourself in Y way. It doesn't even punish mobile champion because they can usually avoid Q entirely. It only punished immobile champs doing their best to "outplay"

In regards to that I really like this because it solidifies what your options are vs him. If the CotC nerfs hurt him too much I wouldn't even mind him getting an overall Q buff, because the counterplay would still be more obvious.


Anyways, just the 2 cents of a guy who liked to play immobile top laners pre juggernaut rework.

l Helios l1 votes

A lot of it is also that it depends on if he's faster than you. If he moves faster, there's almost no way he will miss because he can adjust regardless of what you do. By nerfing his Q, you reduce the newer player potency and make moving into the handle more appealing of an option, increasing the amount of mind games and counterplay.

Syruponrofls1 votes

I find a darius can go 1 of 2 ways. Either get no kills in lane and basically be useless, or get fed in lane and hard carry a game. I feel like hes a noob trap because anyone who doesn't know how to play against him will just get dumpstered. I have a sigh of relief when I see a flash ignite darius top, cause I know its gonna be an easy lane. But I definitely wouldn't say hes overpowered.

l Helios l1 votes

I agree to the fact that he can be binary, but he does have more hope for later in the game than someone like a Pantheon, which is good. I don't think he's overpowered at all, but I can admit when I think he's stronger than most of the top laners. I can also admit when I think a nerf is fair, and this is the case with the current Q change, imo. It matters more for inexperienced Darius' versus Darius mains or just people who are used to playing him a lot.

Incarceration1 votes

I actually agree with this nerf. I saw a thread yesterday about his steady rise, and now we find that Darius is now getting a nerf.

l Helios l2 votes

My only issue is if they go overboard on this, which Riot has been known to do when someone becomes strong in their respective role and they aren't able to nerf them out of being picked a lot.

DHBGrimReaper1 votes

IMO, Darius does not play well into Yasuo top lane. You have a few options vs him

  1. Play aggressive and ganked
  2. Freeze lane outside ur tower, but then he roams
  3. Roam and let him farm to outscale you

Also Colossus isn't the best keystone for him after nerfs. It's only good vs certain matchups where the shield is crucial to survive short trades (Renekton, Riven). Most other times Stormraiders is better.

I also disagree, teleport is essential for maintaining map pressure, I've won so many games because I was fed enough to teleport bot, get 2 kills drake and 2 towers. I would only take Ghost+Flash if I was planning to splitpush (Ghost to escape ganks or chase enemies down).

l Helios l1 votes

We just have different playstyles then. I never take TP unless I'm on a hard tank like Maokai or Malphite, sometimes on Garen if the lane will go poorly.

I've tried Stormraider's once before; I did really well on it, but it took me a while to get use to the lack of defensive stats and sustain. I liked it, it just didn't fit my playstyle though.

Darius does ok into Yasuo is what I was getting at. There's potential for Darius to stomp the lane, but the outplay potential is on the Yasuo's side moreso than his.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

I think that the Nerf is oriented at making Darius more prone to be put behind. Right now there is very little one can do about Darius - even if you menage to put him somewhat behind, likely with junglers help, he will soon become unduelable anyway - even for champions who should be able to duel Dario with some lead, like other juggs. Removing some free AD should help with that.

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