I Honestly Believe Runaan's is an Unhealthy Item

l Helios l··113 votes·5,693 views

WAIT! Before you down-vote, hear me out.

item 3085 is a significant power spike for a large number of ADCs, and for a good reason; it's a very strong item that provides consistent AOE damage on virtually any ADC. But here's my question: is consistent AOE damage a problem for ADCs?

Think about it this way: what ADCs have AOE abilities? Ashe Ezreal Corki Jinx KogMaw MissFortune Varus Tristana Lucian Jhin Caitlyn Draven Sivir Kalista Graves Quinn Twitch Kindred See something odd? Yeah, it's every single ADC in the game except two: Vayne and Urgot, I even hesitate to include Urgot because...he's Urgot .

Now, that's all well and good right? Clearly AOE damage isn't strange on ADCs, as it shouldn't be; I'm not arguing that ADCs shouldn't have some form of AOE damage. Quite the contrary, I think this adds to diversity in the role and can make selecting a champion much more interesting. But let's think about how item 3085 benefits several of these ADCs, shall we?

Ashe Single target slows now become AOE slows, consistent crits for the purpose of passive and item 3031.

Caitlyn Passive almost stacked instantly which leads to much higher DPS, additional poke on targets adjacent to those snared in traps,

Jinx Q now offers multiple rockets that each deal AOE damage, making her more of a monster in close quarters teamfights

Kalista Can apply rend stacks to multiple targets, making her devastating in teamfights with a delayed but massive burst of damage, this is more of something that happened in an era long gone when Kalista was actually good, but the example remains

Kindred Can now apply passive damage to all targets hit by bolts, leading to really high AOE DPS

KogMaw Percent health damage to multiple targets at a long range

Tristana Not a premier example, but offers heavily consistent waveclear when conjoined with her E

Twitch Similar to Jinx , becomes even more of a monster in close teamfights, also let's him stack passive super easily on multiple targets

Varus Allows him to stack his W on multiple targets, making his damage much more potent considering the AOE nature of the rest of his kit

So with that in mind, consider this: several of these champions already have really potent AOE damage ( Twitch Jinx Varus KogMaw ) and they buy item 3085 to further exacerbate that strength. Others buy it to counter innate weaknesses (Caitlyn Kindred Kalista Ashe ).

Therein lies the problem: item 3085 causes strengths to become that much more overbearing while also covering weaknesses in some kits.

Here's an example: An Ashe is now able to slow three members at once instead of one, making her able to not only deal consistent damage to each, but also allow her to prevent them from escaping due to synergy with her passive. This would almost ensure that, should the fight go in her team's favor, the enemy team won't be able to escape.

Or how about this? Twitch 's ult allows him to deal piercing bolt damage at a much higher range, applying his passive, but he also has item 3085 , so that one piercing bolt turns into three, and now instead of two, maybe three people getting hit, now your whole team is hit, and he can E to get a really hefty amount of damage off, not even considering the damage the crits and ult damage would do.

Or this? Jinx While in rocket stance, she's hitting three different members with three rockets, meaning three different AOE explosions that deal high damage, making her strength of AOE damage just plain overbearing due to the fact that she has 1 item. This just means that she can wipe your team that much faster because the damage is now much more consistent and affects a larger AOE.

That's the problem with this item: it's not that Twitch is overpowered or Jinx is just overtuned or Ashe 's slows are just plain stupid. It's the fact that they're abusing an item that is covering intended weaknesses of having heavily single target damage (this relates to Ashe and Caitlyn mostly) or it's making their AOE damage just plain absurd (here's looking at you Twitch and Jinx ) .

Several of these champions have popped up over time as being just plain dumb or op or whatever, and I don't think it's an issue with the champions as much as it is with item 3085 , and the reason I say that is because of the above two reasons. The worst part though is probably that some of these ADCs are going to get nerfed to high heaven because of the item, not so much that their numbers are out of whack. Ex. Kalista . She was not even that overbearing if you took item 3085 out of the equation; at that point, her high AOE damage is reverted back to the intended single target nature of stacking E and rending for high damage. I'm not arguing issues of dragon control and just plain being a strong champion, but I honestly feel half of the problem with her was just item 3085 .

Tl;dr

item 3085 is the problem, not X champion or Y champion.

Edit: Urgod is love. Urgod is life.

193 Comments

Nameless Voice43 votes

Urgot is sad, because no one even knows his kit.

(For reference, his E is an AoE damage-over-time skillshot.)

l Helios l22 votes

For the record, I meant a primary source of damage. E sets up poke with Q, but E is rarely appreciated for itself beyond the pen it offers and lock on.

nice table12 votes

i mean dravens E isnt a "primary" source of damage either, hell urgots e does more base damage, scales better with ad and also reduces armor.

l Helios l13 votes

Whirling Death...

Velzard of Koz2 votes

You count ult (usually long-cd) as primary source of dmg? Really? Put basic attacks as primary source of damage and ult. Lol, that way Xin Zhao is broken because he has powerful AoE knockback as primary part of his kit.

Also, most of the named champions either have the AoE on their ult or secondary skill that mostly even scales with AP and when they finally have AoE on primary skill it isn' really comparable to potential of Runaan's. Ezreal has AoE on his ult (see above) and then only W, which If we accept, cannot be compared in AoE potential with Runaan's. Jinx has primary AoE only on her Q-empower and it really isn't yet again that big as traditional AoE area (Vel'Koz E, Karma's Q). Jhin yet again ult or his E. In what world is his E primary source of damage? EDIT: LOL or his W but depite the fact it can hit more targets, the damage done and fact it hits up to one enemy champion make me to not take seriously comparing it to Runaan to extend I even forgot about it.

Seriously the only good examples of primary AoE are Ashe, Corki, Lucian, Caitlyn, Varus, Sivir, Graves, comparable to Runaan's potential only Ashe, Corki (with one eye closed), Sivir (with both eyes closed), Graves (fact his basic attacks can be blocked and Q isn't wide enough, have to close one eye again). Here we are at merely 4 Marksmen that can be considered "abusing Runaan taking they already have AoE effective enough".

Also If I follow your "logic", why Teemo isn't there? Yes, he's Markman If you mean to pull out "well he's played differently bdhbdhsdbs" then I can tell that about good half of those named. And the fact why I name Teemo is because he is part of why Runaan may be too abusable. Because it applies on-hits so it naturally overpowers everyone with strong on-hit.

Additionally, many champs that take the item scale quite well with Critical Strike, so another problem is that it now contains Critical Strike Chance after rework.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

But... so are a lot of the abilities of the Marksmen you mentioned.

Jax the Stampede4 votes

Lvl 5 Urgot, reporting for duty

10110011100033 votes

I remember when Runaan's had 70% Attack Speed and no crit. On-hit builds loved it.

Saianna8 votes

And it was good'ish item for ADCs aswell...

I hate this neverending ADC meta.

Big Lincoln30 votes

runaan was fine before they made it a zeal item

l Helios l2 votes

I wasn't as invested in league then as I am now, so I can't say too much about that time period, as I didn't really give a shit about anything that wasn't Trundle.

Irelia Bot20 votes

there was far less reason to get it before that. It was niche.

Ulquiorra99528 votes

And now it's a must-buy on almost every ADC.

I honestly liked it much better earlier. Marksmen who wanted heavy crit DPS could not get AoE damage too without sacrificing some, while those who want to maximize on-hits and attack speed like Kalista, Kindred (were they even out with old Hurricane? Can't recall the exact patch), Kayle, AP Varus and others had a strong item to fulfill their needs.

PermabannedGaren6 votes

{quoted}

And now it's a must-buy on almost every ADC.

Vayne Jhin MissFortune Corki Sivir Draven Ezreal Quinn Lucian

It's the most popular AS/crit item on ADCs, but it's used on less than half of them.

Varus also apparently isn't buying it either.

Mirage Seraph8 votes

Isn't the point of a build to increase your existing advantages while covering up your weaknesses though?

Zhonya's gives mages a large damage spike while also giving them an out in fights to restore cooldowns or break agro, which most mages (particularly immobile mages) completely lack.

Tiamat Items give champs with little to no wave clear... Well, wave clear, while also being a massive DPS Boost even in a 1v1, and champions who do have waveclear still buy them for the same reasons.

l Helios l8 votes

Do you think there's a limit though? I could use your same points to justify Rylai's in its current state; it covers my weaknesses, gives me HP and really nice slows so I can kite better, while also enhancing my strengths, giving me AP to help me deal damage while also allowing me to kite better using slows. My point is that it does nothing but change the meaning of the champion's main strength, being their AA's as ADCs, into AOE damage threats that are unavoidable unless you have Shen W on you. At least I can dodge Cass Q, can't really dodge a Cait headshot that hits my tank and then bounces to me and kills me.

SociopathFriend5 votes

The idea is that it's okay to cover your weaknesses and enhance your strengths to a degree that is considered acceptable.

It's the last part where all of the hard stuff is. For example- mana champions are gated by mana to make their spells valuable- so they build mana so they can use them more. Buying just one item and never being able to run out of mana again would be too strong- but buying one item and running out of mana after one or two rotations of abilities would be too weak.

So you have to try balancing it around the innate ability of Runaan's, the multi-bolts.

l Helios l5 votes

I get that. But I'm simply asserting that it's possible the multi-bolt is a poor concept for an item. Were this something like Kalista's passive, I think that'd be fine, but idk about it being an item just because of the reasons I gave above.

Quepha7 votes

Runaan's is fine. Being strong on some champions doesn't imply it is overpowered, all items should be strong in some situation.

l Helios l14 votes

I'm not arguing that it's op. Rather that it's just a poor design. I think it just makes some strengths too heavily emphasized and some weaknesses almost nonexistent. I think it's fine that Ashe gets slows on her autos, but I don't think they should be slows to multiple targets. I don't mind if Cait gets insane poke, but not on multiple members at once. I don't mind if Twitch can white wash a stacked team, but not when he can hit multiple people who aren't actually that grouped up. His ult pass through effect should be the one appreciated, not Runaan's making his effect stronger.

I guess what I mean to say is Runaan's does nothing but make people appreciate the item more than the champion's kit because it serves to make some aspects just plain silly.

Edit: I just thought about this actually. Why are so many people up in arms about item 3116 ? Only a few champions even use it that much. Zyra Viktor AurelionSol Cassiopeia are the biggest abusers I can think of ATM, and yet it's something that a lot of people were hellbent on getting fixed. Or what about item 3022 ? Weren't the only champions even building that Gnar and bruiser Yasuo ? Yet we heard that that item was almost deleted. I don't think the number of people who abuse the item is a factor, just that the item has aspects that can be openly abused to such a high degree are what makes the item unhealthy.

LordSirChipmunk2 votes

As a person that loves Rylai's Crystal Scepter, I can say that a ton of champions relied on and/or built it, at least as a situational. Although I don't know too much about Mordekaiser , I believe he builds it, along with Vladimir Evelynn Heimerdinger and some other champions you missed. I usually build it as an item on Ahri after a few other ones. Same goes for the Frozen Mallet. I don't play too many AD bruisers, but I do build it on Fiora quite a lot.

Champion Skin7 votes

item 3085 is actually somewhat weaker now then before As with old Fervor of battle it added up to 220 to the extra targets However the extra targets only take 25% AD or 50% AD with crit (62.5% AD with IE crit) which means current fervor adds at most 75 damage (with IE crit while with no crit it only adds 30 damage)

Though item 3085 also work with Warlords Bloodlust and life steal though the bolts only adds between 50% AD to 125% AD extra damage to life steal off (though it might often hit minions which has 0 armor)

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Another biggie is that you don't pick the targets of the secondary bolts; since they don't prioritize champions, your secondary damage could end up just hitting minions while multiple champions charge you.

Personally given the high rate of clown fiestas in bot lane, I'd like my ADC to have some way of dealing with several people charging him.

Xela Syab5 votes

So you're saying this item is Runaaning the game? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

l Helios l1 votes

Velkoz I see what you did there

Hello I am Bird1 votes

LeeSin Show off...

MonkeyMadness2 votes

These jokes are unVolibearable

The Ender Cobra4 votes

What about Mordekaiser ? He's an ADC

(pls rework morde rito)

l Helios l7 votes

Goddammit Ender! Why you always gotta come in and mess up my post's logic >:( and now you've brought Mordekaiser into the discussion which means MM is surely on his way. Kiss your souls goodbye boys!

CyberZ478p4 votes

u forgot Teemo

l Helios l6 votes

You invoke the Devil where he isn't welcome. Tread carefully sir.

I intentionally left him out because he isn't a true ADC, more of a hybrid APC who can build on hit or AD or whatever he really wants. Kind of like Kayle

Final Spark Lux3 votes

Hmm hmm. Interesting read, and it's true once they added the crit onto it, it basically became a core item. I wonder if removing the crit would fix the proble, by forcing people to choose between some waveclear potential or a chunk of crit...then again, I could still see it being bought on a lot of the examples. Either way, I play support...so yeah.

BIackfox2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xr1N5Esf,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2016-11-27T00:30:58.203+0000)

Hmm hmm. Interesting read, and it's true once they added the crit onto it, it basically became a core item. I wonder if removing the crit would fix the proble, by forcing people to choose between some waveclear potential or a chunk of crit...then again, I could still see it being bought on a lot of the examples. Either way, I play support...so yeah.

I hope you don't play lux support...

Final Spark Lux2 votes

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT of course I do \o/. Haven't you ever watched her original spotlight? She was designed with support as a focus, and I've played her as such since the day she was released. Also I've been playing support for so long I am completely unable to CS reliably :D

BIackfox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xr1N5Esf,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2016-11-27T00:50:55.945+0000)

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT of course I do \o/. Haven't you ever watched her original spotlight? She was designed with support as a focus, and I've played her as such since the day she was released. Also I've been playing support for so long I am completely unable to CS reliably :D

Well considering she has a 50 win rate mid and a 45 bot lane.

Final Spark Lux4 votes

You realize that's the average right? Someone could have 100% win rate and another person could have 0 win rate, its gonna average to 50. Doesn't mean much, its just some numbers. I don't play lux because of her winrate, I play her because I really enjoy her playstyle. I don't think Ive ever played a lux game where I was bored, even if it was a stomp vs my team. Thats the whole point of this wonderful video game we all love \o/

Dealth3 votes

Urgot has an Aoe poison.

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

But wasn't that the point? Of making a unique item for ranged just like Hydra is for melee? It is desgined with the onhit to make use of marksmen's on hot damage. I liked it more when it was a more of a situational item instead of a generic item with Crit like it is now. Besides,there isn't really a reason for an add without on hit effects to pick up Runaan instead of statikk shiv

Nami in Bush2 votes

Hey

youngjake932 votes

The problem with Runaan's is that it is Runaan's? You never explained why a champion having the ability to accentuate strengths/cover weaknesses based on item choice is inherently bad... I think it makes a very interesting tradeoff compared to the higher single target DPS options in shiv, the safety of RFC and the little of both in PD.

l Helios l2 votes

I explained what the passive gives each premier example and stated that the potential it gives to some champions is silly.

I also don't find a trade off very prevalent, considering most people will buy multiple crit items in every game. Usually I see item 3094 item 3085 combo item 3085 item 3087 is only really needed if your team has 0 waveclear and it's all on you. item 3085 item 3046 is kind of a weird of a combo unless your Kindred, just because most of the Champions I listed shouldn't be dueling a lot as most of them lack escapes and can be quite vulnerable.

youngjake933 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Helios l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xr1N5Esf,comment-id=00240000,timestamp=2016-11-27T02:32:48.900+0000)

I explained what the passive gives each premier example and stated that the potential it gives to some champions is silly.

I also don't find a trade off very prevalent, considering most people will buy multiple crit items in every game. Usually I see item 3094 item 3085 combo item 3085 item 3087 is only really needed if your team has 0 waveclear and it's all on you. item 3085 item 3046 is kind of a weird of a combo unless your Kindred, just because most of the Champions I listed shouldn't be dueling a lot as most of them lack escapes and can be quite vulnerable.

Most people don't buy double Zeal items in a game lol... Usually they only do that if super fed against no threats or if the game drags out to 6 items.

It also depends on the champion. PD can be good on Kindred, Vayne, Lucian, Graves, Sivir, even Ezreal and none of them buy Runaan's. Shiv can be good on anything because it gives you the strongest autos. RFC depends on enemy champs; it gives the lowest DPS so you don't really want it if you don't need it. Hurricane is the best teamfight AOE option duh, but not every game is "pick backline hypercarry against no divers/assasins then teamfight all day."

l Helios l6 votes

?? Mmk. Every single one of the big abusers I listed builds two zeal items, mainly RFC and Runaans, in highest % game and highest win rate builds. But ok.

Also wasn't saying PD is uncommon. Was saying the combo of the two is weird.

FourVsFive1 votes

What if they made it so bolts do not crit? Or would that be too weak?

l Helios l5 votes

I don't mind if they crit. I personally would like no on hit effects; to me that solves almost all of the issues, but that's also half the reason most champions buy it

Cowseed1 votes

That's..... kind of a big nerf to Caitlyn.

l Helios l2 votes

I know, that's why I said it'll be a big turn off. But think about it this way: if you get this item out of the way, there's room for compensation on everyone who was hurt by the changes to Runaan's.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

I honestly would hate that. The multi-rocket-concept Riot added for Jinx (it wasn't like this from the start, they changed it to work with her rocket launcher) is one of the most fun champion/item-interactions in the game for me.

If they remove that and compensate her just with some stat buffs, I would be really sad.

invisiblecat11 votes

I think Kalista suffers the same fate as Mordekaiser Without her runaans she can't do much in fights since they nerfed har basic attacks With it she becomes a monster (Well used to) who can 1v5 teams

Joseraph3 votes

I don't think Morde builds Runaan

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