People need to stop going on about how Cassiopeia's identity was somehow changed. It wasn't.

Miraweave··8 votes·757 views

Her playstyle pre-rework was the exact same "land Q -> unload on them with E" pattern that she has now. She maxed E in almost every lane she was in. The only time she would max Q was when she was in a lane where she could not possibly trade with her lane opponent either because of their damage or their range, so Q max would let you waveclear safely and build up to your lategame.

They did nerf her poison damage, though this is lessened by the damage amp on her E. The reason they nerfed the AP scaling on her Q and her mana costs in general was because prior to the rework, Cassiopeia had the same issue that we see with Azir now where she was a lane bully who scaled into a tremendously powerful lategame. That was not balanced and they could not allow her to be a strong champion while keeping that power.

The basic point of her rework was to buff her to the point where she was actually a good champion, but make sure that she wasn't a good lane bully because then she would be overpowered like we've seen with Azir. That's the purpose of her passive: they took damage away from her and put it back in a way that scales in a rather consistent way over time so that she could have strong lategame damage without having a strong earlygame. Her mana costs were nerfed for the same reason: so that she wouldn't be an effective lane bully since she'd need a heavy mana item (and she always built a mana item pre rework, it's not like that changed at all).

So basically, overall her rework did not change her playstyle. It took some power off of her ability to harass with her Q because she wouldn't be able to be a balanced champion with that kind of power, and then buffed her kit generally so that she was good overall now that she existed in a state where she could actually be balanced. She was never this magical "poison mage" idea that people seem to have in the sense that she was never a champion who relied on heavy damage-over-time effects, and her E was always the core of her kit. She was always an AP DPS champion with an incredible lategame, and the way she actually plays fights did not change at all.

One of the biggest complaints I see is the general idea that "she was a poison mage and now she's an ap marksman", but her playstyle was always to land Q and then spam E while kiting pre rework and that's her playstyle now.

TL;DR Stop complaining about Cassiopeia "losing her identity" because the way she plays fights didn't change at all and the way her general gameplay works only changed in the sense that they reduced her lane bully potential in order to make her a champion who could actually be balanced without being overpowered.

EDIT: If you're going to downvote me, tell me why I'm wrong. If all you're going to say is "well her dots are weaker", then the answer is that yes, they're weaker because they let her bully lanes incredibly hard and that meant they couldn't buff her without making her overpowered.

24 Comments

Miraweave3 votes

OK, so people are just going to downvote without actually telling me why I'm wrong?

If there's actually something wrong with my analysis, I'd love to know, because the only things I've seen people say are that her Q did more damage (which was a big part of the reason that riot couldn't buff her) and some abstract thing about "muh poison mage" without any definition of what that actually entails in a gameplay sense. It's like you people don't realize that her E was the same ability pre rework.

Oerba No Naja2 votes

poison cassio = q + w in team fight , slowly destroyng their healt bare q better scaling = be able to max it vs certain matchup , poke , DEPUSHING , ect old cassio had more build path because she could ignore mana item because of her passive

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=nomoreflame naja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EG70eUNx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-13T02:38:27.404+0000)

poison cassio = q + w in team fight , slowly destroyng their healt bare q better scaling = be able to max it vs certain matchup , poke , DEPUSHING , ect old cassio had more build path because she could ignore mana item because of her passive

So what you're saying is that the "poison cass" that everyone keeps talking about is literally just "play cassiopeia but don't press E and do less damage".

She wasn't intended to have effective poke. That was the entire thing that made her a champion that riot couldn't buff without reworking: effective poke made her a lane bully, but the existence of her E made her a dps hypercarry no matter what order you maxed your shit in. A Viable Cassiopea with that lane bully harass pattern would be the same kind of bullshit that Azir is, and we don't need that.

Oerba No Naja2 votes

"play cassiopeia but don't press E and do less damage"

obvisously not , her twin fangs was her main dmgs but not at the point of being her entire kit , and i meant that cassio dps in general got nerfed because you cant put your aoe in the back line and dmgs carrys because you cant ignore the front line focusing you and you have to focus them , cassio must dps what she can like a ADC ; because you have to survive enough to output consistant dmgs ; and i meant that her old w had was perfect for zoning in team fight , now ppl can even spam laugh and stay in without taking any dmgs ;

A Viable Cassiopea with that lane bully harass pattern would be the same kind of bullshit that Azir is, and we don't need that

you cant realy compare cassio and azir because azir got everything cassio has not : extra long range , super safety , easy escape , super siege potential , super poke , reliable disengage .

Cassio is still HARD BULLING _a lot _ of matchups mid and getting first blood lvl 3 ; simply because this is her kit , its designed for and she can be a hyper carry late game because she requires a good position in team fight and its not that easy without a peel from your team ( thats why item 3116 is a must have on cassio btw ) Cassio is just fine now because of the Quol changes that rly helped her e to be super reliable ; anyways i had a better winrate with the old cassio even with a clunky e cassio before rework was a off meta champ who was played only by main cassio as now , with the same winrate ( + 125 games ) im happy that only the cassio players are able to make her work no matter the meta ( sometimes its harder ofc ) the most of people who are complaing about cassio in the board dont have more than 20 games with her , so let them play complain if they understand this champion ; i made some thread because i rly missed old cassio ; and its because her curren poison is a bit cluncky ; but i dont really care since i got 55% winrate after 400 games with cass this season , cassio is fine , her player base can make her work , no need to cry in boards

Only Play Darius3 votes

Pre-rework she could either build/play DOT poison mage or machine-gun DPS APC as she is now. The rework made her only viable as the latter.

Miraweave4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EG70eUNx,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:38:15.057+0000)

Pre-rework she could either build/play DOT poison mage or machine-gun DPS APC as she is now. The rework made her only viable as the latter.

You all say "DOT poison mage" like it's supposed to mean something. Describe what that entails, because unless you mean "never press E and call it a different playstyle", then there's no goddamn difference between the two except that one maxes Q to bully a lane while still having a solid lategame.

Unless there's some magical playstyle that I nor any other cassiopeia player in any game I ever played with an old cass knew about, you're just saying that when it means absolutely nothing.

Fiveofswords3 votes

i played her before and after the rework and agree totally. I actually think shes a bit stronger now because the e matter so much more especially late game. amazing how fast she will melt dragon/baron also...only issue is she dumps mana like crazy.

I never understood ppl saying cass was hard to use, or that she was a 'poison' mage. she never was and she never was. The best mage for killing people after they run away is brand actually. stack mpen and get llandies and with your passive its basically fire and forget to anyone who gets to 10% health

I don't know why nobody at top level plays her. If you want straight damage I don't think any mage is as good as cass. I guess the problem is she has no ultility or poke or escape, so you kinda depend a lot on a good front line.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

i played her before and after the rework and agree totally. I actually think shes a bit stronger now because the e matter so much more especially late game. amazing how fast she will melt dragon/baron also...only issue is she dumps mana like crazy.

I never understood ppl saying cass was hard to use, or that she was a 'poison' mage. she never was and she never was. The best mage for killing people after they run away is brand actually. stack mpen and get llandies and with your passive its basically fire and forget to anyone who gets to 10% health

I don't know why nobody at top level plays her. If you want straight damage I don't think any mage is as good as cass. I guess the problem is she has no ultility or poke or escape, so you kinda depend a lot on a good front line.

She was being played a lot in very high elo until the most recent set of nerfs. She was actually horrendously overpowered.

Oerba No Naja3 votes

old late game cass poison > actuall late game poison old cassio safety > actual cassio safety

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=nomoreflame naja,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EG70eUNx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-12T22:53:35.179+0000)

old late game cass poison > actuall late game poison old cassio safety > actual cassio safety

Yeah, like I said they toned down her Q damage because that was the only way she could be a balanced champion. Her E was still her primary damage source by a large margin pre rework (her E did more damage in one second than her Q did over it's entire duration).

For the record, given her new passive and the damage amp on her E, her Q actually does more damage than it did pre-rework lategame once you hit them with E twice.

Old cass wasn't any safer than new cass.

At any rate, you can complain all you want that her damage comes from slightly different sources, but if she's still playing the exact same way then there's no functional difference. Are you saying that you could play cass without the QEEEQEEE pattern pre-rework? Because you couldn't, unless you count harassing someone out of lane with Q and that wasn't balanced.

Oerba No Naja2 votes

so think you can go in and hit E twice , for getting a _decent __ amount of dmg from her poison ; her e is as i said tons of times is short range so you cant poke proprely because you will get caught riot buffed her poison by putting a amp on her e instead of just up her ratios. so u cant poke proprely and siege ect , propably once you are full buil with 1000 ap ( and u have to sacrifice defensive items for this ) your poison is effective , but HOW OFTEN DO YOU HAVE THE TIME OF BEING FULL BUILD IN SOLO Q ? also the rework nerfed her team fight damage potential by nerfing her 4 aoe spelll and " compensate " into up twin fangs . but obviously it compensate nothing . cassio was pretty balanced because she was high risk = high rewards , actually cassio is high risk = low rewards i know that her old q was op but a the point of making her kit 100 % dmg dependant into twin fang was rly toxic a small ratio nerf to q and a small buff to e , was by far the best way to balance cassio . and ofc her gameplay didnt change at all they only reworked her numbers and not her kite ; her mechanics are the same but her gameplay changed , build paths , spell maxing , poke , sieging , depushing ,

GreenLore2 votes

I always hated Cassiopeias E,it is pretty much the reason why I still didn't buy her,I always thought that basing cassio around her poison would be far cooler.

However it does make sense to me that they put more power into her E,because it is the most difficult spell to use correctly,so it should also be more rewarding. And honestly I understand why Riot wanted to take down some damage from her poison,the bully potential was simply too great.

In the end though I think putting some more poison power into her late game would actually help a bit with the complaints. Currently her passive just gives her a bunch of free stats and an added effect to twin fang,but what if it instead focused on her Q&W instead? For example what if her poison effects become stronger once she reaches enough stacks?That would allow cass to be more poison focused in the late game,while being more bite focused in the early game(kinda fitting for a snake too,since the bite comes before the poison).

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

I always hated Cassiopeias E,it is pretty much the reason why I still didn't buy her,I always thought that basing cassio around her poison would be far cooler.

This is the only actual argument that anyone has made. Yeah, maybe she'd make more thematic sense with an entirely different kit, but at that point you're just saying that you wish she were an entirely different champion. Her playstyle as-is is a playstyle that's unique and somewhat interesting.

And, most importantly, they didn't change anything about that with her rework.

However it does make sense to me that they put more power into her E,because it is the most difficult spell to use correctly,so it should also be more rewarding. And honestly I understand why Riot wanted to take down some damage from her poison,the bully potential was simply too great.

In the end though I think putting some more poison power into her late game would actually help a bit with the complaints. Currently her passive just gives her a bunch of free stats and an added effect to twin fang,but what if it instead focused on her Q&W instead? For example what if her poison effects become stronger once she reaches enough stacks?That would allow cass to be more poison focused in the late game,while being more bite focused in the early game(kinda fitting for a snake too,since the bite comes before the poison).

GreenLore1 votes

Yeah thats my point. Cassiopeia would make thematically sense as a poison mage,but the way her kit is built it makes more sense to somewhat base it around her E. Riot didn't want to destroy one of the most unique aspects of her kit,so they went and made it an even more important part of her kit.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah thats my point. Cassiopeia would make thematically sense as a poison mage,but the way her kit is built it makes more sense to somewhat base it around her E. Riot didn't want to destroy one of the most unique aspects of her kit,so they went and made it an even more important part of her kit.

It was already the most important part of her kit, though. I mean you could make the argument that they should swap Cass and Malz's kits, but it's not like they changed what she does when she already did that.

Judge Arcadia2 votes

{quoted}

I always hated Cassiopeias E,it is pretty much the reason why I still didn't buy her,I always thought that basing cassio around her poison would be far cooler.

However it does make sense to me that they put more power into her E,because it is the most difficult spell to use correctly,so it should also be more rewarding.

Come again? Literally turn on Smart Casting, land a Q and proceed to break your E key.

Miraweave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Judge Arcadia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EG70eUNx,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-09-12T08:56:12.519+0000)

Come again? Literally turn on Smart Casting, land a Q and proceed to break your E key.

I think he's referring to the fact that her E being a functional ability is entirely reliant on her landing literally every Q. In that sense she does have a somewhat mechanically intensive playstyle. It's not her E so much as her Q, but I see why he says that.

That said, "most difficult spell to use correctly" goes to bard ult and cass E isn't even in the running.

Fiveofswords2 votes

I dunno...I played lots of mages I think cass is the easiest. the q is pretty easy to land and even if it fails u got the w backup. then you press e a bunch.

GreenLore1 votes

I didn't mean it is the most difficult spell in the whole game,just on Cassiopeias kit;).

GreenLore2 votes

If you hit someone with your Q,they'll be poisoned for 3 seconds,if you cast your E after these have run out,your E will go on cooldown(especially painful in the early game). To use your E to its fullest potential you have to hit your enemy first with your Q and once the poison of the Q runs out,you'll have to smack your W(which poisons at least for 2 seconds,depends on how long the enemy stays in the cloud) onto the enemy,so that you can spam your E for up to 5 seconds+

Q and W are relatively simple to hit on their own,but hitting your enemy with them at certain points while mashing your E button in between is nearly impossible.

However just mashing your E button comes at another drawback as you probably won't move a lot during that time meaning you are open yourself,so the enemy can wreck you.

bunies2 votes

its funny how kids who don't actually play the champion talk about how it wasn't changed at all

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

its funny how kids who don't actually play the champion talk about how it wasn't changed at all

It's funny how I did play the champion and you're totally wrong.

BakedLotion1 votes

Guess who isn't gutted yet? You got it folks. Azir!!!

Favoritism at it's finest.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

Guess who isn't gutted yet? You got it folks. Azir!!!

Favoritism at it's finest.

+1 gut azir

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