PSA: STOP abusing the damn dev diary

chipndip1··26 votes·1,442 views

The dev diary wasn't some grand opportunity so everyone could take their most bitched about champion to say "Lemme use my totally unbiased opinion to state why this champion lands 0/5 pillars and requires a full on game play update right now." Even champs I personally think need game play updates wouldn't just flunk EVERY one of those criteria. I've seen too many people using this as an opportunity to make a rallying cry out of a pity party for certain champs, but the way it's being done is so ridiculous and biased I gotta call it out.

If a champ TRULY failed all 5 criteria, it'd be an extremely archaic champ like Teemo or Kayle, and even then they could possibly land "satisfying" for Kayle given her eventual hyper carrying prowess (although she still needs a serious overhaul in my opinion).

75 Comments

Big Lincoln9 votes

if they're right, they're right

hehe 0/5 Sejuani

chipndip117 votes

I mean, I and many others would argue against a 0/5 score for the current Sejuani, especially given the previous iteration was WAY worse.

Big Lincoln10 votes

only problem with old sej was that she was overnerfed

Sp33d Zer09 votes

Her w was really boring to use.

Big Lincoln15 votes

speak for yourself, i like it more than the new W

Sp33d Zer07 votes

I do speak for myself. As someone who enjoyed playing her, the only satisfying parts of the kit were her q and her ult. Her w and e both felt really bland to use. While I may not love the new sej as I have moved away from the jungle, I at least enjoy it more than I enjoyed her old kit. The w feels more interesting, and e actually requires a minimal amount of effort.

I will say this though, I much preferred her old ult.

Big Lincoln11 votes

being a 5v5 bruiser is much more satisfying than being a 3v3 support

e actually requires a minimal amount of effort.

point, click

Divewing2 votes

maybe "thought" was the better word.

Sp33d Zer05 votes

Her old e didn't even require pointing.

Big Lincoln10 votes

still felt good, and that's what matters

PB4UAME5 votes

Instead it required timing. Which is much more effort and thought, and a far better display of skill.

SanKakU5 votes

Yes, this is true. Many players simply don't understand how useful her E was. I actually can't even fathom how a champion changed this much can earn the fans of her previous kit so many damn down-votes for being truthful. It's not like I'm any exception and I've got tons of down-votes for defending the old Sejuani's kit and/or offending the new one.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

The same way that so many fans of her old kit that don't mind the new one get downvoted to oblivion for having a different view of what is fun.

SanKakU3 votes

Your earlier post came off as you acting like you are some sort of representative of Sejuani players from her replaced kit. You make it sound like Riot did a relatively good job on her rework when you mention that you liked her old Q and R only. Nothing could be further from the truth. Everyone knows her old R was grand, that was entirely the point of the rework, they wanted to do something about the ultimate. But instead of 'bringing her in line with other champions' they basically made her new kit so bad it's like she was deleted from the champion roster.

I can't say the new W isn't 'fun' to use, it's a cool ability. But her entire rework was a mistake. I mean you could make the argument it would be fun to only play as the Rift Herald. You might be right. But would playing as the Rift Herald really be better than playing as a champion? The new Sejuani is not better. Could they keep the W and maybe tweak it or do some other rework or combination of reworking and reverting? I suppose. But bottom line is that the current Sejuani is a mistake.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I don't aim to be a representative at all, but as I mained her for a good amount of time in my jungle days, I do like to see her be a successful character.

I don't aim to make people believe something that they don't. Most hate the new Sejuani, just like most hate the new Zac: But I enjoy playing them both more, and playing against them more. The new sejuani's e feels bad still, I admit that. But I still honestly believe it feels soooooo much better than her old e (however, I still think it needs a lot of work to feel good to use).

It's nice to see someone actually acknowledge that the new w is not as bad as the boards make it out to be. The biggest problem I have is with sejuani's visuals and contortions when she uses it.

SanKakU2 votes

If all they did was replace her E with the new W then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. They simply did too much dumb stuff to her. I guess time will tell if Riot will figure out a way to fix all the broken tanks they've created. And by broken I mean they are too weak, not too strong.

LankPants5 votes

New Sej's E requires far less thought. With old E you had to think about if you could potentially hit more targets with a better E, new E when you have 4 stacks you just hit it. The CD's so short that if you need to hit it on another guy you can anyway.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Regardless of her E, globaly she require more skill now.

LankPants4 votes

Not really. I've found Sej to be far easier to play post rework if anything, although I'd at least partially attribute that to her simply being stronger.

There's absolutely no question in my mind that Sejuani's easier to play from a strategic standpoint now. You simply get punished less for mistakes you make on new Sej than old thanks to your passive. I'd say any increase in mechanical skill is so minimal that this change making her a less punishing champ completely offsets it.

DunkinNoobs6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EF4E0UUH,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-03T01:17:47.457+0000)

being a 5v5 bruiser is much more satisfying than being a 3v3 support

Amen to that. I have no idea why Riot decided to change my bruiser tank jungler into a support tank jungler, but I went from 180k mastery Sejuani to basically never playing her anymore.

SanKakU4 votes

There was a part of her Q that I hated...it was where she stops moving if she knocks up an enemy champion. That was literally the only thing in her entire kit that I didn't like. Now literally everything about her kit, I hate. That's called destroying a good champion.

PB4UAME3 votes

This. Give me back old W and old R please. I want a damn tank to fucking have AoE for fucks' sake.

LankPants2 votes

New W, E and R are garbage. They all feel utterly garbage to use compared to old Sejuani. The only people who'd ever argue otherwise are people who've pretty much never played one of old Sej, new Sej or even both.

FantasySniper1 votes

Not as boring as Amumu's.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

They're both boring. That said, I do like that amumu has a toggle, but it's still a bad spell gameplay wise

chipndip17 votes

W was boring move that had no skill expression. Basically a sunfire cape with an AA reset tacked onto it.

R was basically a ranged Amumu ult.

Her passive was a stat stick after using an ability.

Her old kit was way less unique to her and was a few notches less skill expressive, with a bunch of random copy-pastas of other things in the game. This new kit is significantly more tailored to a specific champion, complete with more unique tools with a bit more variability. It's a cleaner kit, even if you aren't a fan of it.

Big Lincoln8 votes

Her old kit was way less unique to her

new passive is a ripoff of malzahar's, new W is a variant of rengar's Q, new E is a mockup of Braum's passive. new sej is unique? never would have figured.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

Q is gragas E. Old W was sunfire cape Old E was Twitch E. Old Ult was Amumu ult.

Old Sejuani was any better?

PB4UAME7 votes

Old W was first an auto with % hp damage, then a flail for a different amount and rate of damage in PBAoE. There is not any other skill or item that functions similarly.

Old E has little to do with Expunge at all, except that they require stacks before using, but even then function distinctly differently from each other.

Old ult was actually an AoE STUN. No other tank has an AoE stun ultimate.

We have AoE stuns on support, AoE knock ups and Entangles on tanks, but no other AoE stuns on tanks.

Additionally, it was the best intiation tool in the game, and is now gone and severely missed. New R is a piece of shit.

SanKakU6 votes

Indeed, reworking Sejuani is perhaps the biggest mistake they've made. I don't even understand what could possibly make them think she needed a rework. A few nerfs, maybe, a minor rework? I could see them changing the Q a little and maybe her 'passive'. But everything else was totally fine.

And I mean, I'm not just talking balance change mistakes, or champion design mistakes, I'm talking out of every kind of mistake a developer could make, this is the biggest in Riot's entire history IMHO.

SanKakU4 votes

It's a worse kit in every way imaginable.

LankPants2 votes

Her old kit was way less unique to her and was a few notches less skill expressive, with a bunch of random copy-pastas of other things in the game.

You're joking right? New Sej comes straight out of the cookie cutter tank mould. 2-3 hard CCs, 1-2 soft CCs, a dash and a tank steroid. Am I talking about Sej? Gragas? Alistar? Nautilus? Maokai? All 5 and more at once?

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

i'd give her theme. she fits her theme really well. i'd give her skill. she has an E that's pretty much dependent on everything else including other teammates. so that's at least 2/5

LankPants2 votes

i'd give her theme. she fits her theme really well.

Riot's stated goal for Sej's theme was a barbarian warleader who actively leads her team into battle. She fails this theme spectacularly. Assuming there's another melee on your team who's even remotely tanky it's currently better to follow them into a fight rather than actually attempt to engage the fight yourself since it offers you up a better E stun and potentially better CC.

i'd give her skill. she has an E that's pretty much dependent on everything else including other teammates

Her E is the exact reason I wouldn't give her skill. It's actually the most braindead ability in the game. It's the only skill I can think of where with almost no input from the user you can be immediately hit with a powerful effect. It's a long range point and click stun which Sejuani can potentially use even if she doesn't touch you. There's an example of this in effect in one of the fights in the 3rd game of Rox VS BBQ from tonight if you want to see what I mean. The Vod's not up yet but I could link you to exactly when I mean tomorrow morning if you'd like.

Overall I don't see which of Riot's pillars you could see Sejuani as a success on, she moved laterally on skill, her theme's weaker than it was pre rework, she's more homogeneous with other tanks and as such less unique, she seems less fair than she was pre rework although I don't play against her that often so I could be wrong here, at best it's lateral though and finally she's less satisfying to play and I think I'm one of the most qualified people on the boards to make that call.

At best Sejuani's satisfying two of the pillars as well as she was pre rework while moving a small way back on theme and taking a giant leap backwards on both uniqueness and satisfaction of play. There's a good reason why a lot of Sej players have called this rework out as garbage.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

leading and army into battle doesnt necessarily mean leading them from the front lines. in fact more often than not those who lead sacrifice the new overzealous members of their force before they sacrifice themselves for those who are without guidance are lost. it's been a military strategy for years.

i'd disagree with her feeling underpowered and unsatisfying. she's got her flail skill shot that stacks a single stack for her E, but knocks away minions. use it incorrectly and you'll end up adjusting the creeps in an unfavorable way. she's got a passive that grants her added armor, magic resist, and slow resist. if a player gets too reliant on that added protection they can forget to maximize their loadout, fail to engage effectively and become unaware of their own potential in combat which leads to feeding more than assisting. her dash is her only means of escape. blow it at the wrong time for a dive or while your passive is down and you're left with no means of retreat. the recovery time on her dash is a little slow for the amount of distance traveled, but with her frost armor it can be used to escape. her R is a skill shot that is easy to waste when used against mobile champs. if you cant capitalize on the bolo toss because you've thrown it into a crowd for maximum slow then it's still a waste. E has to be up in order to capitalize on your R. choosing to play sejuani when no one on your team can melee attack is foolish. there's a lot of skill involved in simply knowing when to choose to play sejuani. for example jinx, lucian, yi, graves etc. on the other team? dont bring sejuani. they'll just power through. got a tryndamere, a yi, warwick, or xin zhao on your team? sejuani is a great pick. that E effect makes a huge difference based on your composition and the enemies composition. so i'd argue that it's one of the MOST reliant on skill - even if in a match it's a simple point and click damage chunk.

LankPants1 votes

leading and army into battle doesnt necessarily mean leading them from the front lines.

That might be relevant if we weren't taking about Sejuani. Sej is a frontline leader, she always has been, she is if you read her lore and it's pretty clear that when Riot said leader they were aiming for frontline leader.

i'd disagree with her feeling underpowered and unsatisfying.

Unsatisfying isn't the same as underpowered. Cho'gath's also often pretty unsatisfying to play too and he's a straight up broken piece of shit. Right now I think Sej is slightly too powerful, but still unsatisfying.

she's got her flail skill shot that stacks a single stack for her E, but knocks away minions. use it incorrectly and you'll end up adjusting the creeps in an unfavorable way.

Sejuani's W always stacks creeps. The only way it can be negative for you is if you stack creeps on top of eachother and their clickboxes stop you from clicking the creep you want, this can be fixed by moving 2 steps back so the creeps have to follow and unstack, or if you don't feel like moving you can also zoom the camera in and edge click the target you want to AA. VS lane creeps you can target stacked creeps anyway, as you move your mouse over the creeps HP bars will move backwards and forwards, you're targeting the one at the front.

she's got a passive that grants her added armor, magic resist, and slow resist. if a player gets too reliant on that added protection they can forget to maximize their loadout, fail to engage effectively and become unaware of their own potential in combat which leads to feeding more than assisting.

I don't even understand what your argument is here, you're accidentally arguing against your own point. Sej before was just less tanky, you had to play around being less tanky. That takes more skill. New Sej has the durability buffer which can often save her when she mispositions.

her dash is her only means of escape.

Yes? It also was before her rework, what's your point?

but with her frost armor it can be used to escape.

But that's reducing skill cap, it's saying "you have to do less to survive until your second Q". That's unarguably making her a lower skill champion at least when it comes to surviving/escaping.

her R is a skill shot that is easy to waste when used against mobile champs.

I've seen a Lucian dash almost sideways and still be hit by an R at close to max range. The hitbox on R at max range has a diameter of 250 units or so, it's actually fucking giant. Given the speed and the size of the projectile it's hard even for mobile champions to dodge, the old R was slightly slower, far smaller and considerably more worthless when missed.

E has to be up in order to capitalize on your R.

This is completely wrong and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Sejuani as a champion. Sejuani cannot stun a champion who was stunned by her R with her E. You actually use E first because of this.

choosing to play sejuani when no one on your team can melee attack is foolish. there's a lot of skill involved in simply knowing when to choose to play sejuani. for example jinx, lucian, yi, graves etc. on the other team? dont bring sejuani. they'll just power through. got a tryndamere, a yi, warwick, or xin zhao on your team?

That has nothing to do with skill. It's purely game knowledge.

that E effect makes a huge difference based on your composition and the enemies composition. so i'd argue that it's one of the MOST reliant on skill - even if in a match it's a simple point and click damage chunk.

The E isn't particularly skill reliant because there's a potential for Sejuani to fuck up everything and still impact because of it. You could wiff your Q, miss W completely, throw R backwards and just have your Irelia AA a few times then E-AA and still have a huge impact. That's the definition of what makes something low skill, to me at least.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

there are two types of front lines i guess then. there's the commander's frontline which is what riot's referring to. as in the job a sergeant or lieutenant would have. then there's the point man which is what you're referring to which a private without a family back home would agree to as a self sacrificial position. there are still commanders who battle on the frontlines especially when talking about fantasy wars where telephones and internet are not a thing. so to that end i disagree with your assessment of what sejuani is and isnt.

i disagree with both.

that sounds like it takes some skill and knowledge of the game to me.

my argument is that they've given her a tool that makes her competitive and it requires critical thinking on how to utilize it. i disagree with the assessment that something being weaker equates to the player having to have more skill in order to utilize it. if something is weak then it's weak regardless. if something is strong it's strong regardless. skill can't really be brought up unless there's a general consensus that the character is balanced. that's the argument that's been going around for lee sin and yasuo for the longest time. so once again i disagree. knowing when your frost armor is going to be up and when it isnt takes a lot of consideration. just like yasuo's passive and malzahar's passive. comparing sejuani to chogath is a bit biased. chogath got an experimental buff that was tested and granted thematic resonance. his kit and archetype have issues that are far more serious than a simple R change. his R is true damage and that alone has no counterplay when playing a low hp champion. the same can be said for all champions that have true damage - yi, vayne, garen, velkoz, twitch, etc. while it's true that true damage adds a new dynamic to game it also negates about 80% of the defensive items in the game from being cost efficient and aside from a handful of champions with HP based stat scales there are literally no benefits to stacking HP in order to counter true damage. combine that with the fact that most regen items are built with only tanks and supports in mind and you're left with a big problem.

my point is that her dash before was pointless for anything other than engagements. now it can be combined with her passive and her flail to actually escape. before you were committed. now if you can hold out long enough for the cooldown to reset you can dash out and combo into a retreat. you couldnt do that before. that adds a bit of competitiveness to her kit though the numbers need some slight tweaking.

i disagree with your assessment of how an ability that provides a moment of relief lowers a champions skill. an all or nothing champion is one of the lowest skill champions in the game. that's why it's called "face-rolling the keyboard". sejuani was given a tool that prevents her from having to all or nothing.

getting hit by the hitbox does not equate to "omg no skill champ". it's a skill shot and that means that in a team fight you need to hit your target. if a target adjusts their position even slightly that larger skill shot box is going to make it even harder - not easier. that's a fundamental basic in skill shots. if caitlyn's R was the size of ezreals R you'd never hit your target because of champion block. i realize that caitlyns R isnt a skill shot, but that's not the point of the comparison. larger skill shots means easier to miss. the only skill shots where size benefits them are AOE's like oriannas ball and Lux's, jinx's, and ezreal's R. it helps even more if it's able to pass through opponents to deal damage to all units in a line. 1v1 sure you can usually hit champions, but a jinx on a kill streak or a lucian hiding behind braum or nautilus? forget about it. at least with a jhin ashe or a caitlyn you can reach full scale R and they're likely to be alone in the back of the pack taking advantage of their ranged attacks. so even if they're hiding behind a nautilus you should be able to flank.

her R is wasted if you dont get 2 freezes. that requires your E to be off of cooldown. if you can freeze 2 opponents or double freeze a single opponent after shattering them you should come pretty close to killing them. why else would you have a slow aura around your opponent when they're already stunned? it's not some added effect because your opponent is already stunned and cant move. the point of the slow is so that your melee champion like yi can start whacking away at their retreating forces inside of the snowglobe. you freeze the person they attack and you just got a double or better.

if game knowledge doesnt equal skill then this game isn't skill based. it's that simple. so decide how you want it. though im pretty sure a lot of lcs players are going to be offended if you tell them their immense amount of game knowledge isnt skill. they're of course also skilled at reaction times, communication, and mouse and keyboard adjustment, but they couldn't do anything with that without game knowledge. most players will tell you the only skills you need to be good at this game is pure game knowledge. that's not ENTIRELY true since connection/equipment and communication/teamwork are also a part of the game, but it's a huge portion of the development and efficiency of skills overall.

i disagree with your assessment. in a bubble yes it's very cost effective and does a decent amount of damage, but someone has to apply it. you can miss all of your abilities and die before it ever gets applied. you can play on a team of ranged champions and be the only melee champion able to apply it. there are lots of ways to mess up E before the match even starts like forgetting to consider composition and summoner spells. of course hardly anyone uses cleanse or mercurial scimitar in low elo, but the options are always there and if your opponents capitalize on counter itemization your E becomes worthless. item 3139 item 3222 item 3814 item 3157 item 3102 Morgana as far as im aware it can be spell shielded and cant be applied to untargetable champions and i think banshees only pops to abilities so if you miss everything except your E then your E gets banshee'd.

LankPants2 votes

I'd give her a 1 score, not from any improvements, but just because I don't think her skill or fairness have been degraded massively, I think she's maybe marginally less fair but it's certainly not huge.

Basically relative to where she was before I'm giving her a half in skill, a half in fairness and a 0 in everything else. Reverting Sejuani to me would give the same two half points as well as a 1 for each of the other pillars, so a total score of 4, relative to her current state.

Very Hard Engage8 votes

except they opened the can of worms themselves, and that puts the burden onto them to explain each of the pillars (at least in their eyes) as to why they feel the champion is success. they wont, because they know they dont have the answer because some champions really are a PoS.

were spewing their own faulted logic back at them.

were reflecting it, were not creating it or fabricating from nothing.

if you think what the community does is bad its only a reflection on riot.

Teridax686 votes

I have to agree with this. The purpose of the /dev diary was to share with the community tools that the developers use to evaluate the success of their champions' design, and thereby help us have more educated discussions on design as a whole. While I did somewhat expect those concepts to get weaponized, as some of the criteria are pretty subjective, it saddens me to see even otherwise well-spoken players on Gameplay fall into that same trap (looking at you, Lincoln). If the Boards community's first and biggest response to developers sharing their design philosophy is to always throw it back in their face out of spite, then we may as well give up on expecting Riot to have a mature conversation with us.

Re: the 5 criteria, I think it's generally better to evaluate each factor on a scale, rather than a simple pass/fail. It's all too easy to find fault in a champion and fail them at whichever criterion you choose because of it (e.g. "Sejuani's E is kinda boring; 0 marks on play satisfaction"), and doing so does not at all convey an accurate picture of their overall success. Even the worst champion in League at any aspect can still score a minimum amount of marks there (Xin Zhao, for example, does reward skill through some strategic planning and tactical choices, even if he doesn't express skill nearly as much as most other champions), so it would benefit everyone if we took a more nuanced approach to discussing champions along these criteria.

LankPants4 votes

Re: the 5 criteria, I think it's generally better to evaluate each factor on a scale, rather than a simple pass/fail. It's all too easy to find fault in a champion and fail them at whichever criterion you choose because of it (e.g. "Sejuani's E is kinda boring; 0 marks on play satisfaction")

While it's not the way I graded Sej earlier in the thread, I'd say the most logical way to grade reworks (not new champs) is a relative scale which allows negative points for areas where a champ has gone backwards. This is a change based system, so staying the same would inherently mean you get a 0, improving means you get some positive number and becoming worse means you get some negative number.

For me on Sej I'd give, with 0 being neutral, 1 being a complete fix for an issue and -1 being an utterly abysmal change


Theme: -0.3: her theme wasn't super strong before, but the rework actually made going in after someone else a more optimal play than it was before. Considering Riot wanted to make Sejuani feel like a war leader, that's backtracking

Skill Expression: 0: Literally nothing about Sej skillwise changed. W's marginally more difficult to use. E's braindead, but it wasn't a super taxing ability before.

Fairness:-0.2: In my opinion Sej is a little less fair to play against now than before her rework just because of her damage being shifted to burst rather than DPS.

Satisfaction of Play: -0.8: This is where things get bad. Almost all of Sej's abilities are just less interesting than before the rework. The things that actually made Sej an interesting champion are gone, you don't have your high damage bruiser/tank which is what most Sejuani players actually enjoyed about her before the rework. E is also an incredibly boaring ability, you are correct.

Uniqueness: -1: Sejuani went from having a fairly unique niche as a lategame teamfighting bruiser tank, something only really her and Amumu shared to being completely interchangeable with every other tank commonly seen. This was the biggest failure of the rework.


Under my relative system that means Sejuani gets an end score of -2.3, I gave her a score of 1 under the system that most people are using. Either way I think it's fair to say it was an abysmal rework.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Theme: -0.3: her theme wasn't super strong before, but the rework actually made going in after someone else a more optimal play than it was before. Considering Riot wanted to make Sejuani feel like a war leader, that's backtracking

U say this often... But in my games (plat) and higher levels games Sejuani player don't wait for other to go in, and usualy lead the charge (i mean engage).

Skill Expression: 0: Literally nothing about Sej skillwise changed. W's marginally more difficult to use. E's braindead, but it wasn't a super taxing ability before.

And u think it was better with her old version

Fairness:-0.2: In my opinion Sej is a little less fair to play against now than before her rework just because of her damage being shifted to burst rather than DPS.

Her ult is more fair, and her burst using an indicator is fair.

Uniqueness: -1:

she can't be less unique than her prior version. She was nothing more than an ult bot in eyes of any other player.

LightIsMyPath2 votes

My 2 cents in disagreeing with you: As a squishy player I despise playing tanks . Sejuani (even though I didn't play her that much she simply was my to-go jungle, which is not one of my main roles) was the only tank in the game I used to have fun with. She was different from the classic"go in, cc,take hits" : People feared me, if I managed to position correctly I could deal a good amount of damage and everyone frosted has to respect the fact I could cripple them. And the ultimate.. Taking 5 men ultimate was one of the best feeling in this game, comparable to Orianna's, my second fav champion. I loved her and she wasn't even one of my role champions.

Now she's just another boring cc bot like every other tank in the game, I just play amumu and cry with him because I 'm bored to death

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

From my squishy Pov i didn't feared her old one, in my eyes she was just an ult bot. Just look her old self, when her ult was down, she wasn't good. Even Amumu was already better at the time.

Teridax681 votes

I can very much agree to grading reworks in relation to their previous kit. I'm also inclined to agree with your assessment of Sejuani's update: her previous kit may not have been the most skill-expressive, but it did give her somewhat of a unique spot as a juggernaut-vanguard hybrid, where her playstyle revolved around not only applying constant team-wide disruption, but also persistent AoE damage. She could definitely have used an update to make her feel more like a a heavy cavalry rider and warband leader, but ultimately her most recent rework didn't really achieve that, and instead diminished quite a few of her qualities in favor of an experimental E that didn't pay off.

For any rework of this scale to be justified, it has to bring major long-term improvements to a champion, and I think the Tank Update was one where many of the associated reworks were a step back. I wouldn't say any of the reworked tanks are exceedingly awful overall, but their updates were unsuccessful enough for it to feel that way.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

When they speak about skill expression it mean the difference between a good XinZhao and a badXinZhao, and currently the gap isn't huge, we're far from a Yasuo Zed...

Teridax681 votes

Exactly, which is why I picked Xin Zhao as an example of a champion who is not very skill-expressive. My point was that even a champion as skill-inexpressive as Xin Zhao still has a skill expression score above 0, because there still is a performance gap between those new to the champion and those who have mastered him, even if it's not nearly as large as for most other champions. Extrapolating from this, it's important to note that no matter how bad you think a champion scores on a criterion, they are likely still above 0, as the latter score would imply that they have literally none of that quality whatsoever under any circumstances. Therefore, giving champions 0/5 scores is pure hyperbole, and does not help anyone evaluate them properly.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Nothing to add*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

SanKakU5 votes

I'm not sure which criteria you're talking about, but the new Sejuani is freaking horrible to play and I haven't lost a game against her. So clearly, it's not really an 'old champion thing' that decides whether a champion needs a rework, because obviously she needs one.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Care to elaborate on how Kayle doesn't any of the 5 criteria?

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