So. Who would you nerf?

letsfeedtogether·Mar 27, 2019·12 votes·10,863 views

Hi everybody! How are you? I saw this rioter doing this nice thing on twitter. What do you think? Who would you nerf?

1-5? And of course. If you wanna nerf more then 1. (Or even just 1) say why

67 Comments

nm1010Mar 27, 201912 votes

1 - High ban rate and consistent winrate even with low play rate - Nerf and add to rework schedule, might need more data. 2 - Drop off in ban rate at elite level indicates frustration more than being blatantly overpowered - Power neutral changes that remove frustration would be my call. 3 - New fotm low skill floor champion - Light nerf targeted for low elos. 4 - High pick rate and win rate with a low ban rate - 54% WR and a nearly 20% PR is a bit much for me, even on a fair champion. Light nerf. 5 - High skill champion from the looks of it, looks slightly overtuned at high levels - High elo light nerf if winrate jumped another 2%. Depending on circumstances they might need a gutting/rework.

Edit:

1 - Morgana Middle - 100% Knew it, already talked about how I feel about it. It was almost exactly what I said above 2 - Vayne Bottom - Eh, assuming Riot's stats are accurate I stand by what I said. Probably would revolve around rageblade synergy if I had to elaborate. 3 - Urgot Top - Returning fotm*, with his recent changes I think he might be stronger/weaker than stats convey so I would wait on nerfs. 4 - Jinx Bottom - I had a strong feeling this one was Jinx too, I stand by the above. 5 - Riven Top - I would really like to see the WR stats for high elo, because I know certain individuals can hard stomp with her. Without seeing just how much stronger she is in elite hands I would stand by a high elo slight nerf.

HP CrookshanksMar 28, 20195 votes

1 is Morgana mid. People ban her because she's played as support not mid. That's why her pick rate is low with high ban rate. No one bans her in mid lane.

BeepBoop78Mar 27, 20198 votes

Yasou isn't on there because he has a 70% ban rate.

Sir SaltarinMar 27, 20197 votes

Vladimir

GaliöMar 27, 20194 votes

I am uncertain of 1, while is seems obvious the playrate is low (MAYBE due to high ban rate)

Overall its presence is high but league has a history of 'meme' banning champions for projected strength or annoyance.

I am a bigger fan of 2 and 4 Pretty high presence with or without bans. Good winrate, too popular regardless of strength.

I'm fine with 3, feels like support stats to me.

Not enough info on 5.

So if I HAD to choose to nerf those guys I'd be confident enough to nerf 2 and 4 regardless while the rest can be nuanced.

DynikusMar 27, 20194 votes

what's missing to make an informed decision?

Champion names, so I can apply an unfair bias to champions I don't like and nerf them regardless of if statistics reflect that they should be nerfed. [slayer-jinx-catface]

Abibyama IIMar 27, 20191 votes

He will reveal the champions names tonight.

JJI744Mar 27, 20191 votes

Hm.

1>IDK, best guess of Kayle. 2>Vayne 3>Vi, maybe. Not too confident in that one. 4> Jinx 5> Rek'sai or Riven.

BigFBearMar 27, 20191 votes

Kayle has way higher pick rate 4 could be Nami too.

GlaricionMar 27, 20191 votes

This blind Win-Ban-Pick table is an interesting thought experiment, but champion names do help as they reveal their kits and power curves.

Games are only lasting 20 minutes? Would make sense for Pantheon, Illaoi, etc... to be a pick-ban <52% WR champion. Lasting 35 minutes? Shows that they're way too strong. Vice-versa with hypercarries like Kayle, Kog, and Vayne.

Vayne is a very relevant example.

Despite the meta being low durability and game times averaging to around 28 minutes, she's still FotM. ~52% WR 30% Pick 38% Ban.

If this was Draven or Lucian these numbers could potentially be reasonable, but Vayne?

Ionian VulpixMar 27, 20193 votes

Greninja

Feel ApathyMar 27, 20192 votes

1st 2nd and 4th without a hitch. A champion shouldn't be banned that often for the first one. have that high of a pick & banrate for the 2nd one and pickrate for the 4th

BigFBearMar 27, 20191 votes

@ No.2 Better change champions with normal winrate and high ban rate than nerf them to make them less frustrating to play against. It makes no sense to gut an annoying champ from 50% to 47% so he is dead and no one plays him anymore.

Chembaron YamadaMar 27, 20192 votes

I'd nerf 1, 2 and 5.

Ban rate is pretty important for me in these scenarios. If a champion is strong, but feels fair to the point that neither low elo payers nor high elo (or professional players) feel the need to ban them, then they are fine in my opinion. Especially champion 4 seems to be extremely fair in the eyes of all players across the board, since the banrate is extremely low even if the champion gets played alot with great success.

RhaiMar 27, 20192 votes

1 I believe to be made up, feel free to prove me wrong though. 2 Vayne 3 Urgot 4 Jinx 5 Riven

so honestly all of them to varying degrees.

Vayne and Riven both have something frustrating about them that needs fixing as indicated by the banrate vs winrate. Urgot needs something that makes him not destroy the lower ranks by merely existing, perhaps W having a cooldown again. Jinx because she sees far too much success for how easy she is to pick up and play.

Can't wait for the guy to announce completely different champions and just wreck me.

PichuKannaMar 27, 20192 votes

idk about 1,2,3,5 but 4 seems like sona... no champion thats not an enchanter has high wr, low ban rate

RhaiMar 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

idk about 1,2,3,5 but 4 seems like sona... no champion thats not an enchanter has high wr, low ban rate

Sona's pickrate isnt that high, but jinx's is

Craft ZeppelinMar 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

idk about 1,2,3,5 but 4 seems like sona... no champion thats not an enchanter has high wr, low ban rate

Yeah I say 4 is definitely Sona. 1 Looks like Vladimir and 2 is a ADC.

FlashesMar 27, 20192 votes

I have a theory that number 1 is actually Irelia, due to its high winrate, low pick rate, and high ban rate. Even if it's not, I recommend a slight nerf.

Common high winrate champions like Riven and Vayne have higher pick rates, while lower pick rate champions like Aurelion Sol have lower ban rates (and lower winrates at low elo).

I'm pretty sure number 2 is Vayne or Lucian thanks to the high pick rate, high ban rate, and semi-high winrate. I'd recommend a slight nerf.

Number 3 feels like Yasuo, except the ban rates are WAY too low. I'm guessing it's Zed. Its winrate does drop off near higher elos, but I'd still recommend a small nerf.

Number 4 is definitly a Solo Carry type champion, so most team reliant picks are out of the question. A nerf could be taken if League wants to balance a little around solo queue. If they do decide to nerf the champion, I'd recommend a small one.

Number 5 seems like a "high skill cap" champion that found its way to low elo due to overtuned kit, allowing anyone to pick it up. I suggest a nerf on this champion.

In conclusion, small nerfs across the board, with heavier nerfs on number 5.

Anivia HentaiMar 28, 20192 votes

gut. zed.

KirbyCakeMar 28, 20192 votes

I don't get the point of the twitter post. Is he implying that actually balancing the game based off numbers is hard? It's not, as long as you remember the hierarchy of champion balance of ban rate > win rate > pick rate.

Very overpowered at all elos, needs a huge nerf, S tier champion. High win rate and ban rate shows that this champion is insanely overpowered and suffocates a large majority of champions that the enemy team will pick. Low pick rate because this champion is useless/easily counterable against the other set of champions. Suggests a very polarizing playstyle and requires possible rework.
Very problematic with it's relatively high ban rate, win rate and pick rate at all elos. Clearly a A+ tier champion. Requires light nerf.
Would not touch this champion at all until other problematic champions have been addressed. Probably a B+ tier champion. Nothing overbearing although probably takes less skill to play, which I don't consider as a balance problem until this guy stomps low elo a lot harder.
Would not touch this champion at all either until other problematic champions have been addressed. Very similar to #3 in terms of power, a solid B+ tier champion.
Requires a light nerf, same as #2. Ban rate is a bit alarming at high elo. A tier champion.

fire263Mar 27, 20191 votes

1: I would say needs a nerf, you could make the argument that the winrate is just inflated by one tricks, however that ban rate definitely means the champion is not fun to play against, and would probably need some nerfs in order to lower ban rate and make them healthy.

2: Definitely warrants a nerf, play rate shows that it's not just one tricks playing this champion and ban rate means that this champion is really disliked by players. The winrate considering play rate is also too high, especially if this is supposed to be a high difficulty champion.

3: Should probably be looked at, however, I don't think there's enough info on this yet to warrant any nerf. The play rate is low enough that you can make the argument that it's mostly one tricks, and the ban rate is nothing overly too high.

4: This seems like some sort of support stats, play rate is quite high however. Should be looked at, but I wouldn't say needs a nerf atm as the ban rate is very low, meaning it's most likely some champion that is not frustrating to play against.

5: Seems to only be a problem for higher tiers, but even then all the stats don't warrant a nerf just yet.

Just for fun, I'm going to try and guess who the champions are. 1: Yorick, not much play rate but very strong and banned quite often. 2: Vayne, high ban rate, high pick rate, and since she's somewhat difficult not as high winrate. 3: Riven, ban rate feels a little too low to be her but can't think of anyone else 4: Jinx or Sivir, almost certain, both have high pick and win rate but relatively low ban rate 5: Neeko, stronger in higher elo's, decent pick and ban ratio as well.

I feel like Zed is in here somewhere, just don't know where

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Just for fun, I'm going to try and guess who the champions are.

i dont think any of them is real.

vayne has 53% winrate and almost 30% pick rate and 36% ban rate for example. her stats only increase for higher tiers.

there is really no discussion or confusion about if she should be nerfed, and other champions would have felt the nerf hammer within two weeks.

vayne is sitting in this spot for more than two month now.

Abibyama IIMar 27, 20195 votes

They are real

https://twitter.com/RiotRepertoir/status/1110961507855036418?s=09

fire263Mar 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEyyM41f,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2019-03-27T20:20:21.015+0000)

i dont think any of them is real.

vayne has 53% winrate and almost 30% pick rate and 36% ban rate for example. her stats only increase for higher tiers.

there is really no discussion or confusion about if she should be nerfed, and other champions would have felt the nerf hammer within two weeks.

vayne is sitting in this spot for more than two month now.

I'm definitely not denying she needs nerfs, I hate playing against her, many others do as well, and her play rate, ban rate, and winrate are not healthy.

But I still feel as if she is the #2 slot, as pretty much every single statistical site puts her at a 51% winrate (op.gg, u.gg, champion.gg, etc) with only lolalytics putting her at around 52, and the play rate and ban rate of the second champion is nearly identical to what I would think she would be around, high ban and pick rate, along with it being relatively close to all statistical sites as well. I know these sites aren't always accurate, but they do get their data from somewhere so it's most likely decently accurate.

Again, I'm just guessing here and I could be (most likely am) way off, but I'm now curious as to why you think my guesses are wrong.

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm definitely not denying she needs nerfs, I hate playing against her, many others do as well, and her play rate, ban rate, and winrate are not healthy.

But I still feel as if she is the #2 slot, as pretty much every single statistical site puts her at a 51% winrate (op.gg, u.gg, champion.gg, etc) with only lolalytics putting her at around 52, and the play rate and ban rate of the second champion is nearly identical to what I would think she would be around, high ban and pick rate, along with it being relatively close to all statistical sites as well. I know these sites aren't always accurate, but they do get their data from somewhere so it's most likely decently accurate.

Again, I'm just guessing here and I could be (most likely am) way off, but I'm now curious as to why you think my guesses are wrong.

actually i pulled this from lolalytics.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ADC/

her bot lane winrate specifically is 53% for plat+ and increases for higher tiers.

her total win rate is dragged down a bit by the fact that shes also played top lane, and her winrate there is "only" short of 52%

op.gg and associated sites only take stats from korea, while the filter on lolalytics i put up there takes games from every region. its possibly to play around a bit and compare stats from different regions with each other.

edit.:

her winrate and play rate stats actually seem the highest in korea and na, and just slightly lower on eu servers

i dont see any region where vayne has only 51% or 52% winrate.

Daddy AntsMar 27, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEyyM41f,comment-id=000d000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-27T20:53:55.791+0000)

actually i pulled this from lolalytics.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ADC/

her bot lane winrate specifically is 53% for plat+ and increases for higher tiers.

her total win rate is dragged down a bit by the fact that shes also played top lane, and her winrate there is "only" short of 52%

op.gg and associated sites only take stats from korea, while the filter on lolalytics i put up there takes games from every region. its possibly to play around a bit and compare stats from different regions with each other.

edit.:

her winrate and play rate stats actually seem the highest in korea and na, and just slightly lower on eu servers

i dont see any region where vayne has only 51% or 52% winrate.

Again, that data the rioter posted is data they see internally.

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Again, that data the rioter posted is data they see internally.

then maybe they should publish their data and how they compiled it.

because for all i know this could include iron tier games, which is the only division where vayne has lower than 50% winrate.

as long as lolalytics is transparent in how they get their data and how they sort it, and riot is not, im trusting lolalytics more than this tweet.

DisembarkMar 28, 20192 votes

Lol. Just lol.

You seem to be speaking some sort of foreign language dude.

ModAcademy KaynMar 28, 20194 votes

It kinda seems more like you don't like the numbers you're seeing from Riot, and that Lolayltic's numbers suit your opinion better though. What, you think they're trying to lie to ya or something? If they cared that little about the community to lie to our faces straight up like that, why even do the twitter post at all? Why bother asking the question a week ago about what standard there could be to justify nerfs to anyone?

Repetoir is trying to have an honest discussion here, saying you won't believe it because they won't show you literally everything behind the scenes is asking a lot for what's going on.

Critmaster GarenMar 28, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEyyM41f,comment-id=000d000000010000000000000003,timestamp=2019-03-28T05:08:38.457+0000)

It kinda seems more like you don't like the numbers you're seeing from Riot

the data that lolalytics uses is pulled from riots API, so theyre supposed to be using the same source as riot repertoir uses there.

but we know how lolalytics is sorting and filtering that same data. we dont know what riot repertoir did to get to those numbers in that tweet.

because the only way to get to such a low winrate for vayne is if he included iron and bronze tier games in all of his cases. what i suspect here is that were not looking at separate winrates for low and high tier play at "iron to gold" and "plat to challenger", but overall winrates from "iron to gold", and from "iron to challenger", which hes mislabled as "average play" and "skilled play". you cant label the second case as skilled play when you still include the lowest divisions in your data. this completely skews these numbers, because vaynes winrate is like 48% or 49% at iron tier (jumping to 53% at plat+ and 56% at masters+) and drags the overall numbers down.

the lowest divisions are not supposed to influence riots balance decisions, unless in extreme cases according to themselves. just because vayne is weak at iron level play, doesnt mean shes not completely broken in regular gameplay.

my distrust is not towards the accuracy of the source, but the transparancy on how the same data was interpreted.

Pokemonred200Mar 27, 20191 votes

That rioter confirmed they are real in a followup tweet, but he blocked out names so that people would look at the raw numbers rather than instantly saying the champions they do or don't want banned (which is a good idea imo)

Their internal data apparently shows winrate, playrate, and playrate at different numbers than outside sites do on a consistent basis, so the actual champions would be entirely guesswork. I have a pretty good idea on who the five might be, though.

Daddy AntsMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

1: I would say needs a nerf, you could make the argument that the winrate is just inflated by one tricks, however that ban rate definitely means the champion is not fun to play against, and would probably need some nerfs in order to lower ban rate and make them healthy.

2: Definitely warrants a nerf, play rate shows that it's not just one tricks playing this champion and ban rate means that this champion is really disliked by players. The winrate considering play rate is also too high, especially if this is supposed to be a high difficulty champion.

3: Should probably be looked at, however, I don't think there's enough info on this yet to warrant any nerf. The play rate is low enough that you can make the argument that it's mostly one tricks, and the ban rate is nothing overly too high.

4: This seems like some sort of support stats, play rate is quite high however. Should be looked at, but I wouldn't say needs a nerf atm as the ban rate is very low, meaning it's most likely some champion that is not frustrating to play against.

5: Seems to only be a problem for higher tiers, but even then all the stats don't warrant a nerf just yet.

Just for fun, I'm going to try and guess who the champions are. 1: Yorick, not much play rate but very strong and banned quite often. 2: Vayne, high ban rate, high pick rate, and since she's somewhat difficult not as high winrate. 3: Riven, ban rate feels a little too low to be her but can't think of anyone else 4: Jinx or Sivir, almost certain, both have high pick and win rate but relatively low ban rate 5: Neeko, stronger in higher elo's, decent pick and ban ratio as well.

I feel like Zed is in here somewhere, just don't know where

Morgana
Vayne
Riven
Jinx
Neeko

I thnk

JJI744Mar 27, 20191 votes

1,2*,4.

High winrate across multiple Elos. Pickrate would be ~5% if not for the high banrate. Too high for it to just be onetricks.
Power neutralish change to try to reduce opponents frustration.
This is an enchanter support or (immobile) ADC, almost certainly. Has a massive contribution to winning games, without drawing a whole lot of attention.

3 may be a little strong, but probably not in the 'must address this now' range.

Critmaster GarenMar 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

1,2*,4.

High winrate across multiple Elos. Pickrate would be ~5% if not for the high banrate. Too high for it to just be onetricks.

champion 1 might be a hard counter for one of the other champions.

lets say hes a hard counter to champion 2. you would think that gets him a lot of play, right?

well the thing is, if there is no specific reason outside picking him as a counterpick for champion 2, then the games where champion 2 is banned (30% of the time), he probably will see very little play (<1%).

on the other hand, champion 2 is a very contested pick, and their players probably know that champion 1 hard counters them and tend to ban him out 40% out of every game. remember that everyone bans at the same time, so if i plan to play a certain champion, then id ban my counter preemptively even if the champion i intend to play has a high chance to get banned aswell.

this leaves the champion with a very low overall play rate, only being played when champion 2 makes it through the ban phase, gets picked, and champion 1 doesnt get banned out at the same time.

this would also create a very high winrate for the champion in those games where both 1 and 2 are playing against each other.

so overall, this just means champion 2 is broken and champion 1 doesnt need to get nerfed at all.

JJI744Mar 27, 20191 votes

I think your reasoning is sound, but I don't give people that much credit. Nor do I believe that there is a champion that counters the current really popular/strong champ so hard that they would receive so many target-bans and push their winrate that high.

xDogMeatxMar 27, 20191 votes

(1 and 2) actually too much damage in the game in general the main nerfs are yasuo/riven though.

banrate is too high.

taleofsonataMar 27, 20191 votes

The one with the highest banrate and pick rate. At the same time. I use to still ban zed even if he had 49% winrate, that shit is cancer.

Düff McWhalenMar 27, 20191 votes

Any word on the champion names yet?

Wild GeeseMar 27, 20191 votes

I'd nerf them all. Too much power in the game. 2 and 3 clearly need the most nerfs due to play+pick+ban rates all being high but they all should be nerfed clearly.

MessyStuffMar 28, 20191 votes

I would probably nerf 2/4. The only reason why 2 has a low win rate compared to them is because it has such a high play rate. That probably drops the winrate. I would definitely nerf 4 because it has a high play rate and an extremely high win rate. Although I have a feeling that 4 is an assassin like Zed or Master Yi because it's not played in pros. 1 is only that high because of one tricks and it's probably Aurelion Sol or someone like him. 5 is decent in all stages(of play) and I think he's pretty balanced.

Edge of DaybreakMar 28, 20191 votes

Kinda funny how people need these to be the champions they hate. I'm assuming at least 2 of these are mages 1 is actually something people circlejerk about and the other 2 are just random outliers no one really talks about.

Edit wrong as hell. Oh wow riven is barely doing anything compared to the others.

wolviusMar 28, 20191 votes

I would nerf 1 and 2 for sure. That high of a banrate in multiple elos even without high winrate means champ is problematic.

2 too high winrate for that playerbase and still fairly banned in elite. guessing Wayne or yas

4 is probably a pub stomp champ like nasus or yi that can't function in coordinated but thrives in the ~~hades~~ low elo. Hard to nerf as they become gods if game goes long enough/ gets items, a time bomb basically. Don't think need nerfs/ number change won't work.

3 is difficult, fairly large playerbase and winrate. Can't decide without knowing champ, probably has some irritating gimmick like Zoe E or schist like neeko on hit toplane boosting overall winrate.

5 would definitely be on a list of champs to monitor.make skins for then buff. Guessing Hecarim

EDIT: assuming it's champ winrate not positional winrate.

Titanium70Mar 28, 20191 votes

4 followed by 1 from stats alone.

Since we know now 4 is an ADC the playrate becomes less meaningfull so I'd swap the order: 1 followed by 4. ^^

KarunamonMar 28, 20191 votes

Someone should be looking into #1, given that the champion has an abnormally high ban rate, and a >50%WR across all skill levels. "Average" and "Skilled" play account for some high 90s percentage of people that play the game, so any champion that's exceedingly annoying at those levels will be annoying to most players.

Then, I read that he followed up with the champs, #1 is Morgana Mid.. which, oddly enough, is slated for nerfs in the next patch going by the most recent quick gameplay thoughts thread. Interesting, no?

SaevumMar 28, 20191 votes

Data on this champion only tells me that are mains and a few abusers that can also pull off the trick. Slight nerf, oriented to increase the skill that the champion demands. if it doesn't affect the data in 2 weeks, another slight nerf to increase the skill demand again. Rinse and repeat.
This is a perfect example of a Flag. The play rate, ban rate and win rate combination of a true abomination. Translation in average play (chart): From 100 players that play this champion in its desirable role, 22 will pick it, 33 players will try to deny this champion to appear in their games, and 51% win rate it is not more inflated due to lack of skill and appropiate knowledge on the game and situation for picking it. The skilled play chart amazes me even more.
Looks normal, slight nerf to drag it back to a desirable 50-52% win rate due to play rate. It's not only mains who are playing it and finding good success. Would keep an eye in the elite ban rate/win rate to make a move towards a hard nerf.
Skilled play chart baffles me. I trust the elite data on this one. doesn't seem to be a problem. The champion can shine and can be dealt with. Almost a flag i must say, but balancing around low elo is not an accurate move. Elite data tells me that the champion has windows of weakness, exploitable, no reason to be a ban worthy.
Flag. Elite data ban rate is undeniable. It is abused the higher you go. Probably similar to champion no. 1. Nerf torwards skill required for the champion to be viable or be successful with. Rinse and repeat.