i saw this on twitter and i cannot agree more so here is the post :
Wait the team that banned 5 supports got a punishment??? What... They had to play a game against low rated players (for competitive terms) that wasn't even a legit team, like 4 out of 5 of the team were support mains... That's crazy... Maybe don't force bad players into pro play.
xDogMeatx27 votesits a way to control us force us to play a "certain" way that has to be played. its a waste of banning resources if its used for sexism. but if its mains they are banning or thinning a support pool its a champ ban thats worth 2 effective champ bans due to a persons massive knowledge on that champ. if that is sexist then remove the ban phase.
excelsheet123 votesWow. Trash talking is a part of sports. If riot wants to be serious and get that sweet ESPN coverage they need to not make their competitive scene a daycare center.
Ravenhale2 votesI don't know. Trash talking in televised sports has become very frowned upon. Pretty much every pro sport has fines for unsportsmanlike conduct. I highly doubt this is driven by "hurt feelings" but rather by the simple fact that these players are meant to be role models and the sport in question wants those role models to behave appropriately.
My real question would be if the team had banned "None" five times, if they would have similarly been punished. I don't think the guys were trying to be sexist so much as their actual statement that it didn't matter who they banned.
excelsheet12 votesMost sports make the distinction between trash talking and taunting. Like, in the NBA you can trash talk, but you can't stare someone down. There are also fines, which seem more appropriate. Like, hey thats not cool here the appropriate fine. Instead of, hey you were kind of a dick you are now banned. I think intimidation is part of sports though. If you are a pro sports person you want every advantage possible. I guess there is also the unique aspect of e-sports being mixed gender. There is balance between being a nice little non-offensive professional and the I'm going to win this game/match so decisively and in a manner that made you even sorry to show up attitude. The former is needed for civility and social acceptability, but the latter provides entertainment and drama.
Serge THE GREAT2 votesWow. Trash talking is a part of sports. If riot wants to be serious and get that sweet ESPN coverage they need to not make their competitive scene a daycare center.
Nah, trash talking is part of being a jackass.
excelsheet15 votesPro-sports are Pro-sports. They aren't day care centers. Trash talk is perfectly acceptable behavior in pro-sports. Its the mind game part an athletic event. Pros in all sports try to get in the other teams' head.
DuskDaUmbreon13 votesBecause it was clear BM and almost certainly an "E-girl" joke.
letsfeedtogether86 votesthe girls team was a joke. 4 supports main in low dia in world stage
DuskDaUmbreon9 votesDoes dumbass behavior excuse asshole behavior?
øHaruø60 votesThat's dumb to say. Why isn't it asshole behavior when pros ban other pros' best champ?
letsfeedtogether56 votesthats the game. you play to win. its not being an asshole its trying to win.
GonahtanuGepardi6 votesNot exactly. Those bans were made to mock them and we all know it. The girl team shouldn't even be there but that doesn't remove the fact that they were being mocked.
5StackUltOneShot26 votesNot exactly. Those bans were made to mock them and we all know it. The girl team shouldn't even be there but that doesn't remove the fact that they were being mocked.
When ruling bad behaviour, LCS rules dictate banning/picking phase is ignored completely. Anything else to say?
DrCyanide20 votesThose bans banned nearly half of the champions that they had played more than 10 games on last season.
https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/esports/IHHWqGEh-the-irony-of-the-rox-warning
If you could ban half of Cloud 9's effective champion pool, would you do it?
Additionally, only the Support and Mid have experience in their lanes. One or the other of them will be target banned until the rest of the team catches up. The girls actually did better with the bans against their Support than they did in the other game with the bans against their Mid.
GonahtanuGepardi2 votesIf you could ban half of Cloud 9's effective champion pool, would you do it?
Yes if those bans would make any sense. However, banning champions that they are not going to play wouldn't be very effective.
DrCyanide16 votesI argue the bans do make sense. Look at the champions their Support specifically played as support last season. (And yes, I'm omitting their champions where their average CS meant they were playing them as Mids)
Nami Ban - #2 most played Janna Ban - #3 most played Lulu Ban - #4 most played Thresh Ban - #5 most played Braum Ban - Not high on the Support's play list, but ROX had already locked in Karma, Ezreal, and Rumble by this point, all of which could be denied or mitigated by the shield.
What they left up was the Support's #1 pick - Morgana. They left her with no other options, they controlled what she got to pick that game and could play around it.
Ravenhale1 votesHonestly that doesn't make much sense. Why target ban someone if you leave up the one option that they are the best at? If they had popped Morgana instead of Braum, I would agree that they were trying to force the support to play something they had less experience with. But to force someone to play something they have the most experience with ... like what? And Braum over Morgana when Morgana has black shield...? Like double what? Has there ever been a time where a team intentionally banned out every high played champ that a player has experience with besides the one that they play the most with the intention that they have to play the champion they have the most experience with?
For lack of a better example, if you ban out Tristana, Quinn and three more AD carries, but leave Draven open for a game you know you are playing against Tyler 1 ... is that actually a worthwhile strategy?
DrCyanide9 votesIt's been done in the past in pro games, intentionally leaving open someone's pocket pick while banning everything else around them or leaving an "OP of the patch" champion open and baiting the enemy team into picking it because you've got a counter strategy. Leaving their comfort pick open is more of an "I know this is your best champion, but I don't care because your best isn't good enough" move, but Riot didn't rule against it then so I don't see why they'd rule against it now.
Ravenhale1 votesSo we can agree that the support was not genuinely target banned. In the kindest words, we could say she was challenged.
I think here is where we will find a difference of opinions. Those that feel ROX respects Vaevictis will argue this is a challenge and should not have warranted this reaction from Riot. Those that feel ROX has no respect for Vaevictis will argue this was mocking Vaevictis and that Riot's reaction was justified. And it will be difficult swaying one group or the other as it all comes down to what you believe about ROX and how they might feel about a team that did not "earn" their spot and already suffered two humiliating losses.
DrCyanide9 votesUnless I'm reading something wrong, ROX was the first ones to play against them. They didn't have anything else to go on besides Solo Queue data.
They had to ban something (it'd legitimately be BM to not ban any champions or to throw away the bans on Teemo or something), and I find it to be too big of a coincidence that the order they chose to ban matches up exactly with the order of her preferred picks. It lets you see what the team can do on their best picks while also controlling a player's picks. If you were just BMing by banning Supports then Soraka and Sona would have made the list.
I'd love to see an all girl team hold their own in a pro league. I think it'd be awesome for my daughter to see that when she's old enough. But every team needs to perform at least comparable to the other teams in its league. If Vaevictis had been up to the challenge they should have been able to resist against ROX with all players having access to their preferred champions. Drag the match past 21 minutes, get a turret, something.
Sp33d Zer02 votesThe enemy team was 5 support mains.
If you are up against 5 support mains, are you really gonna start banning mid laners?
No one got in an uproar when Rekkless had 5 ADCs banned out against him last year.
Sp33d Zer02 votesThis midlaner?
https://ru.op.gg/summoner/userName=violetfairy
The one with a negative win rate on her most played mid laner, an abysmal winrate on her second most played mid laner, and not a single game of Lissandra this season?
She played games of Lissandra last season I'll gladly give you that, but even in that season her winrates on Janna, Taric, Braum, Lulu, Leona were all either as good or BETTER than her "Best" mid laner in Lissandra.
AirKingNeo1 votesHow the fuck do you equate banning 5 supports and banning meaningful bans against the opposing team?
It was clearly being a sexist joke. You can't be fucking serious in thinking that it wasn't.
øHaruø2 votesHow's that sexist? If it the girl's team were made of all males who played nothing but support champs, would it be sexist then?
AirKingNeo1 votesbecause it's very obvious that your opponent will not pick 5 supports as their fucking comp.
Aseraan1 votesIT WAS THE BEST JOKE EVER:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I am still laughing my ass of as a big hater for e girl supports.
This is a legendary meme i tell you.
Mavëríck1 votesIT WAS THE BEST JOKE EVER:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I am still laughing my ass of as a big hater for e girl supports.
This is a legendary meme i tell you.
They didn't even ban all female characters, just supports.
Aseraan2 votesI know right?!?!?!?!? You dont make a team of all supports CMON that's alone asking for a shot.
Dark Nephthys12 votesI think this whole thing is stupid...first of all forcing a team that obviously shouldn't be there just because you want an "all female team" in professional play when they clearly aren't good enough to be there is insulting to all the players in that league that might of had a chance to make it to pro play but was kicked out because you want to look progressive and diverse.
Then you warn and punish teams that face them basically. This is apparently the 2nd time a team got a warning or punished when facing that team. First time was a team named Vega Squadron where they "intentionally stretched out" a game that they clearly could of won. And now ROX for banning 5 supports.
First of all Intentionally Stretching out a game really isn't all that bad. I've seen teams do that a lot, sure not nearly to that extent but teams do this quite often, and it's stupid to punish a team for it. Also in the worst case, they could just Surrender if they really don't want to deal with it because I know you can in pro play, or just let minions just take the nexus. Vega probably did it to showcase to them that they aren't at their skill level (which they're clearly not).
Then there is the ROX game where they ban 5 supports against them. Considering 4 of them were support mains (from what I heard) how exactly is that really all that bad? Teams ban 4 or 5 champions from the same role a lot, usually it's to try to force the enemy's best laner on to one of their less experienced pick. Yes it was basically a throw away ban but they really didn't need to ban any champions, and if throwing away bans was considered "bad" then League wouldn't have the "None" option when banning champions.
Now if the team fought their way into the league like everyone else and got into pro play off of their skill then sure I might be on their side with all of this, but clearly they didn't and was just added to pro play. Riot mentions these are a sign of disrespect to them, but how about all the disrespect to all the potential players that lost their spot in pro play? Or the disrespect to the current teams that worked their way into where they are now?
Yara08 votesThink the main reason they punished them is because they already warned other teams for doing similar things. But really they shouldn't be there having an all low diamond team that isint built of players that can play each role well is just stupid.
The team owners of Vaevictis eSports should be banned for creating a team that obviously exists for attention and not to actually compete. I cant think how a player could see that they would be joining a team of all low diamond players that wont have a player for each role and actually join that team wanting to be a professional player your just asking for your name to get slammed.
Karunamon3 votesThink the main reason they punished them is because they already warned other teams for doing similar things.
What similar things?
I thought the rule on bans is you can ban whoever you want for whatever reason you want?
Yara01 votes[deleted]
Karunamon2 votes{quoted} And riot cant give any leeway on the matter they have to be rock hard on the rules or else it would invalidate all the other rules.
What specific rule are they claiming was broken?
Whether its stupid or not riot has to enforce the rules to keep the competitive integrity and im pretty sure because of the legal agreement with all teams Riot has to enforce the rules. I think if they can prove the reason they banned those champs was for a real reason and not just because their all females riot can let it go but if they dont like i said before Riot will have to take action.
So it comes down to proving mindset.
Yep, this is going to be a completely fair decision./s
You have infinitely more faith in the esports guys at Riot (especially the esports guys at Riot outside of NA) than I do.
deadlychuck4 votesWait so by this logic riot would also punish any team that didn't ban any champions.
It's stupid, let people play how they want and let people be competitive how they want.
Frankly riot just needs to stop trying to force the competitive elements of their game down people's throats. Just make a fun game for people and a competitive scene will emerge by simply having PvP.
Riot arbitrarily created additional rules to be applied here that were never agreed upon by the players. It's like a 5 year old changing the rules of the game the moment they get upset how something went.
Yara02 votes[deleted]
deadlychuck4 votesExcept that there's no rule about what champions you are/aren't allowed to ban. You can interpret anything someone does however you like, but legal arguments over intent are a fucking nightmare even outside of professional sports. Unless they did something that was outlined as illegal for the player(s) to do, then there's no reason to go around punishing people for it...
Again though, if they're going to create rules as they interpret someone's actions and as they see fit, then you can't have a competitive sport since anything that you do can at any point they can change what is or isn't allowed to compensate for what they might consider to be an unfair. It's actually like playing with toddlers, they literally make up rules as you go along (which is fine when they're children). Not that the enemy team were acting like toddlers, but rather the ref representing riot was acting like a toddler.
ChaosReyn4 votesFirst of all, though I know you mean it as to say that they were vastly outclassed in comparison to some of the big shots there (including ROX), you're implying two things yourself here that are probably going to see you downvote bombed without intending to in your word choice. The first is that an all-female team are "bad players" in pro play (which is in a sense what ROX got punished for), and the second is that multiple support mains are bad in pro play. While the second one is actually a strong topic for debate in itself, in my bias as a support main myself, that is an awkward argument at best and (for lack of better terms) a shitstorm waiting to happen at worst. And we all know these boards...expect the worst. xD
To your main topic, the argument right now is pretty much this: did riot jump the gun in believing that ROX was disrespecting VS, or were they actually disrespecting VS in their ban choice?
Specifically "did they meme VS by banning 5 supports (implying that that's all females are good for in this game) or did they strategically ban 5 supports specifically because they believed that with 4 of them being support mains, their best strategy was to cut down the support pool as hard as they could?
Obviously, Riot believes it was the first one. From a personal standpoint, I can't really see it being strategy either, as there's a very low chance that they were targeting the actual VS Support's roster specifically there, and even if they were, it would mean they were actively believing that the other 4 members were irrelevant/inferior to them. Still, I don't think it was handled in a very appealing way.
FOR JUSTICE8 votesFirst of all, though I know you mean it as to say that they were vastly outclassed in comparison to some of the big shots there (including ROX), you're implying two things yourself here that are probably going to see you downvote bombed without intending to in your word choice. The first is that an all-female team are "bad players" in pro play (which is in a sense what ROX got punished for), and the second is that multiple support mains are bad in pro play.
not nessicerilly i would say, i mean, even the boards can see if you pit a bunch of low diamonds from a server thats just slightly better then the meme OCE region, against seasoned veterans, its pretty obvious who would actually win regardless what champions they banned anyway. and this wouldnt change no matter if they were male or female.
honestly though i always felt this all female thing was rushed, just for the sake of having an all female team. like its cool and all, but its done just to break the "social standard" of a male-dominant esports league. if they felt the need to make one just because there are only males its already self implied sexism tbh.
ChaosReyn2 votesI am not saying it will be taken that way. I'm saying it can potentially be taken that way.
Like I said, I know he said it as to mean "these guys are straight up outclassed"
But to quote myself: "we all know these boards...expect the worst."
Highwiseene3 votesI agree. And to your point of
honestly though i always felt this all female thing was rushed, just for the sake of having an all female team.
I 1000% agree. Normally players play on challenger teams to get practice + coaching before going on the big stage, but that didn't happen with this team. If they honestly just waited for a year or even just a split they would be performing much better.
letsfeedtogether19 votesinever said they're bad. i said they're bad for competitive terms.
4 support mains in low dia. against challenger people. they're bad
LightIsMyPath1 votesI love the people saying it was "a tactical choice". You all know far too well this wasn't the case, for ROX didn't need tactics. They could have won banning pizza and playing with one hand. We all know it, they know it , and used the skill difference to send the message by memeing the girls. While the message IS FAIR (they are so bad we can do whatever we want to them---why are they here) it's not their right to openly disrespect their opponents (and the whole female gender playing lol btw.. Of all the memes they could have chosen in bans they chose the "women --support"). As a girl I am furious with that organization enforcing the meme creating a meme team. Still, everyone has to treat their opponents fairly, even if the opponents are really a joke
ArvDaBeast7 votesThat stuff is hilarious lmfao girls should get out of the typical “I can only play female support champs” cliche and perhaps expand their gameplay into other roles and champions? They are literally memeing themselves by playing female only champs. This stereotype is just like the 15 year old male edge lord Yasuo/Zed/Riven players, ur gonna get memed if u play cliche bs.
LightIsMyPath2 votesAnd they do? I have been in 3 full female teams and the only one maining support in every single one of them was our support (and our sub in one of them). My toplaners were a Cho Gath's main (I followed her anda jungler in 2 teams) and a Kled main. My junglers were both the members with the biggest champion pool but they both had a scary jarvan,kha zix and seju for one, Elise for the other (ok these are females but I wouldn't really classify them as "girly champions". Supports have been Nami main - Karma main- Nami main (but in the ardent meta they were strong af and lots of males were playing them too), ADCs Xayah main, MF main and the last played all of them minus kog ("too immobile") and Draven ("fucking useless teamfight", both her words). Now I am in a mixed team and I am the only girl, and all of us main female champions xD (irelia-sejuani-lux-kai'sa-Leona). So for meme standards my current team is more "girly" than the ones that were really composed by 5 girls.. It's just that a girl is usually not entering lobby screaming "HeLlo BoYz EgRiLl here" so you may play with and against lots of woman without ever knowing..
Ravenhale2 votesPretty sure the last group I played against that claimed they were e-girls were a bunch of 12 yr old boys.
Saianna5 votesgirls should get out of the typical “I can only play female support champs” cliche
No girl feels that way (im not a girl though). It's just all this gender-twitter-cancer moving from movies to games. IF THE MOVIE PROTAGONIST ISNT A WOMAN AND HER BEING A WOMAN ISN'T MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE CHARACTER, THEN ITS ALL SEXIST AND NO WOMAN CAN CONNECT WITH SUCH A MC.
OH SO WOMAN WITH NO CHARACTER OTHER THAN BEING WOMAN IS BAD?!?! YOU SEXISTS
Garbage that should be ignored.
FioraWillCarry3 votesThat stuff is hilarious lmfao girls should get out of the typical “I can only play female support champs” cliche and perhaps expand their gameplay into other roles and champions?
Then who's gonna play support? We'll get like 5 month queue times if that happens.
Karn Bishop7 votesI see it as nothing short of respect, skilled enough with those support champions to be worth the ban and that's what they did.
A lion kills a rabbit with the same ferocity as it uses to kill a gazelle, to do otherwise is a disrespect to both the lion and the rabbits skill at escaping.
Besides this same thing has happened to a male adc main yet no outcry then, where were you then? polishing your white armor perhaps?