riot mort (mort dog) said on twitter that bans could come back but not in 9.12. we have hope! i really hope bans will be back it is really helpful and if they do. Please make them perm. Its a nice thing and most players (based on the board) want it back
GonahtanuGepardi29 votesLet's hope they make them permanent. Or make it rotating or make 2 different aram queues (aram doesn't have a long queue time anyway so they could afford to do it). There are just some champions that should be disabled in aram.
Minarde2 votesmake 2 different aram queues (aram doesn't have a long queue time anyway so they could afford to do it)
Only if one of those queues is ranked. Otherwise you end up with the "Blind Pick vs. Draft" situation, and Riot wasn't confident that even Summoner's Rift could support both queues.
GonahtanuGepardi3 votesIt doesn't (and shouldn't) have to be ranked. A queue type is a queue type. SR has ranked solo, ranked flex, normal blind and normal draft. Aram has just aram and it can afford a second one. The talk about normal draft and blind are only existing in smaller servers with less players. Even EUNE got their normal draft 24/7 back (if i remember correctly, someone from eune should confirm). Point is, aram can definitely support both types.
Minarde1 votesAlthough you're right that larger servers got SR Draft back (I think), the fact that Riot was concerned about queue health is, well, concerning. By all accounts, SR has significantly more players than ARAM. If they weren't sure that even SR could maintain both Draft and Blind, wouldn't ARAM's playerbase size naturally also be suspect?
Ranked would help further differentiate the queues while potentially drawing in new interest. Furthermore, it'd allow for a cleaner separation of "casual" and "competitive" environments rather than having to maintain the current chaos of "everyone, get in here!"
GonahtanuGepardi1 votesIf they weren't sure that even SR could maintain both Draft and Blind, wouldn't ARAM's playerbase size naturally also be suspect?
Not necessarily as matchmaking in aram is not even nearly as important. Queue times are affected by matchmaking and aram can have faster queue times with less players.
Ranked would help further differentiate the queues while potentially drawing in new interest. Furthermore, it'd allow for a cleaner separation of "casual" and "competitive" environments rather than having to maintain the current chaos of "everyone, get in here!"
But ranked aram will never exist because of its overwhelming amount of randomness. Ranked is supposed to rank players according to their skill level, not according to their levels of luck. The bans wouldn't make the mode more competitive and that's not what the bans are for. They are just there to remove frustration, which the mode needs.
Minarde1 votesIt's true that there's a large amount of randomness in ARAM. Good thing ranked uses a ladder system that's based around playing a (large) number of games, which reduces the impact of luck while emphasizing the consistency of player skill. Blaming ARAM's randomness is similar to someone blaming their teammates for not being able to climb. Occasionally, you get dealt a bad hand, but luck eventually balances out, and you'll (probably) end up where you belong.
Speaking of bad hands, there's plenty of precedent for competitive games with high-randomness. Card games abound, such as Magic and Hearthstone. "Traditional" card games like poker have existed for even longer.
GonahtanuGepardi1 votesBlaming ARAM's randomness is similar to someone blaming their teammates for not being able to climb.
Not true. Your gameplay affects how your teammates play and you can choose the champion and the role to maximize your chances of winning. You can also use proper map movement to get favorable fights and objectives. You can't do any of that in aram. Random champion, random teammates with random champions and one lane with no way to win with macro. Even mechanics do not matter all the time because it's comp reliant.
With a mode with such a great amount of randomness that you can't control (aram is over 80% luck based), the amount of games you would have to play to "even out the luck factor" is astronomical and no-one is ever going to play that many games of league even if they play it their entire life. Not to mention the whole evening out thing is just a probability. It might never happen in reality (and most likely won't).
The amount of luck involved in card games etc is still way smaller than in something like aram.
Minarde1 votesYour gameplay affects how your teammates play
How is this not the case in ARAM? If anything, it's more applicable in ARAM than in SR because you're actually with your team the entire game. There's only so much influence you can exert from the other side of the Rift.
I agree with you that "ARAM rank" wouldn't reflect the same skills as "SR rank." It obviously shouldn't because they're separate maps with different skillsets. "Random champion" isn't a downside when it's one of the skills being tested. In contrast to existing ranked queues, the emphasis is on a player's average skill with any champion rather than skill with one or two champions. Plus, rewarding generalists, rather than specialists (e.g. OTP), is something that League and Riot have been struggling with. Following that, "random teammates with random champs" is handled by MMR. There's less macro, sure, but much more required adapting to variation.
Not to mention the whole evening out thing is just a probability. It might never happen in reality (and most likely won't).
To be blunt, this is a weird statement. If ARAM is mostly luck (where did you get that "80% luck based" number from anyway?), then luck will even out eventually. That's how randomness works. It's certainly possible there'll be some outliers, but most cases will be fine. If it "most likely [doesn't even out]," then that implies it's not random and thus not luck-based.
GonahtanuGepardi1 votesHow is this not the case in ARAM? If anything, it's more applicable in ARAM than in SR because you're actually with your team the entire game. There's only so much influence you can exert from the other side of the Rift.
You have much more influence on summoners rift because of the macro decisions that do affect your teammates. You can pull pressure from other lanes and you can then join your team when the enemy is still trying to handle the wave you left them to, effectively creating a numbers advantage. That affects your team way more than you can ever affect it in aram.
"Random champion" isn't a downside when it's one of the skills being tested.
Yes it is because it's not one of the skills. It's just a variable that you have to deal with. As an example, if you get someone like yuumi or nunu, you are SO heavily dependent on your teammates and the enemies that your own skill doesn't actually matter at all.
Following that, "random teammates with random champs" is handled by MMR.
That part isn't handled by mmr at all. Random teammates are but them with random champions is not. And mmr doesn't have any meaning at this point anyway. Everyone could have exactly 1500 mmr and yet their skill would be completely different because someone climbed with pure luck while someone else showed more skill, making the games horrible coinflips and again, making a rank pointless. We can see it in current aram. It does have mmr system in place and yet players from all skill level are playing in the same match. There is no point in a visible rank as it doesn't represent anything.
If ARAM is mostly luck (where did you get that "80% luck based" number from anyway?), then luck will even out eventually. That's how randomness works.
That 80% is just to represent how huge the amount of luck involved is. Don't take it literally... And no, that's not how randomness works. Nothing forces it to even out. That's what makes it random. You could ALWAYS get the worst champions. It's not likely, but it's possible. THAT is how randomness works. It is LIKELY that the luck will even out after a LARGE amount of games but it's not at all guaranteed. Also, as i said before, the amount of games for that to happen is so big that no one is going to play that many games which means basically no one's luck manages to even out (outside of a VERY small minority).
Minarde1 votesI think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. It's becoming increasingly obvious that our individual perspectives are wildly and irreconcilably different. So I'm bowing out here. Thanks for the discussion. It was interesting.
DesreveRti3 votesLet's hope they make them permanent. Or make it rotating or make 2 different aram queues (aram doesn't have a long queue time anyway so they could afford to do it). There are just some champions that should be disabled in aram.
Aram is supposed to be all random tho
GonahtanuGepardi3 votesAnd it still would be. Bans do not change that. It would only change if you could choose the champion you play. So that argument isn't valid. The word "all" in "all random" refers to all players, not all champions.
Duke Dryfocker26 votesI own every Champ. I don't like the bans. Sometimes it's fun to play as Teemo, Sona, Yi or Veigar. I see them win and I see them lose. They are not as OP as people think. Annoying yes, but OP beyond reason? Not really. I find that the bans remove some Champs from play entirely. It makes the game less fun. If anything it gives me a better chance of winning. I have 50 Champs above rank 4. I feel I can carry with at least 40. But subtracting Champs seems like subtracting fun to me. I don't get it. It points to your weakness as a player if you can't counter something. Get over it.
Anihaku6 votesAgreed
rubberduckie66621 votesits not about getting rid of "the op" champs, its about getting rid of annoying champs like blitz veigar ezreal xerath and brand.
when i que up for aram i que up because i want to relax a bit.
no one wants to deal with a ticking timebomb that goes off in 20 min while his cc literally takes up half the lane. or getting poked nonstop by someone off screen. and brand and blitz just warp the entire game around them.
again its not about getting rid of "op" champions, its about getting rid of shit that makes the mode unenjoyable.
Psi219 votesits not about getting rid of "the op" champs, its about getting rid of annoying champs like blitz veigar ezreal xerath and brand.
when i que up for aram i que up because i want to relax a bit.
no one wants to deal with a ticking timebomb that goes off in 20 min while his cc literally takes up half the lane. or getting poked nonstop by someone off screen. and brand and blitz just warp the entire game around them.
again its not about getting rid of "op" champions, its about getting rid of shit that makes the mode unenjoyable.
And the Higher MMR players will again EXPLOIT the cra-p out of bans again.
More Five man team ups with limited similar rosters (ARAM accounts) banning the champs they have to force the ones they want to play. Allowing them to always stay on top.
They exploited it last time they are going to do it again.
I can't believe the community didn't see them removed them ASAP when it was told it was being abused. They are only going to fix this by opening the rosters to all.
AIQ3 votesWouldn't adding 5 more FTP champions fix this problem though? Or at least make it the same chance as before?
Dimwitt4 votesOr just ignore account ownership of champions and make it truly ALL random. Not selective purchase random.
ninjaroxas3 votesto be truly random we'd have to also get rid of rerolls. almost no one actually wants true random
Karunamon2 votesto be truly random we'd have to also get rid of rerolls. almost no one actually wants true random
That's what people played before Riot added an official ARAM queue.
floo4 votesBans aren't only there to ban something that is OP. Look at Yasuo. In SR he's top ban almost every single patch, not because he's overpowered, but overloaded and warps the game around himself. The same applies for aram-champs such as Brand, Veigar, Xerath, Lux etc. who love crowded enemies and don't have to face them directly. Also there are champs like Blitz who guarantee a kill if an enemy is hooked into 5 people.
Having and taking fun is subjective. IMO it's better to have more fun for 5 people who aren't forced to play under their tower 24/7 than that one person playing Lux in Aram.
AbiwonKenabi8 votesI agree. I didn't really like bans. The randomness balances out the "OP" Champs (who I agree aren't as bad as people perceive). If you get a solid ARAM champ, you are not guaranteed a good comp around that guy, or maybe the other team has a better comp. Maybe someone got lucky and got their main. You have to work together with your team and figure out what your comp needs to do to win. That's the fun of ARAM.
Anihaku7 votesPeople seem to forget this though.
Karunamon2 votesYou have to work together with your team and figure out what your comp needs to do to win.
This does not happen in games with pubbies.
AbiwonKenabi2 votesIt doesn't always happen, but it definitely happens. I don't know if its because people are more chill in ARAM queue or what but I have had plenty of games where my team of random people comes together well. You can win with some really crappy comps this way.
Sillae1 votes[{quoted}](name=Duke Dryfocker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Awdi0pE2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-28T17:15:41.608+0000)
I own every Champ. I don't like the bans. Sometimes it's fun to play as Teemo, Sona, Yi or Veigar. I see them win and I see them lose. They are not as OP as people think. Annoying yes, but OP beyond reason? Not really. I find that the bans remove some Champs from play entirely. It makes the game less fun. If anything it gives me a better chance of winning. I have 50 Champs above rank 4. I feel I can carry with at least 40. But subtracting Champs seems like subtracting fun to me. I don't get it. It points to your weakness as a player if you can't counter something. Get over it.
it only hurts the aram only accounts, the ones who ruined the game mode for those who actually have a diverse champion pool.
AbiwonKenabi2 votesThere are non-ARAM accounts that don't have a diverse Champion pool. Maybe some people LIKE getting Veigar occasionally. Maybe some people are willing to risk playing against him in order to have a chance at getting him, but maybe people ban him nearly every game.
The big difference from Normals/Ranked is that you can CHOOSE what Champion you get to play. You can hover Veigar or Yasuo or whoever and lock them in if no one bans them. If no one bans in ARAM, you still have a pretty good chance of not getting him.
Cevrad2 votesThe reason I rarely play the gamemode, is because the gamemode is infested with these annoying champions, and it makes the game unfun to play. Simple. There is nothing fun about sitting under tower for 20 minutes hoping to outscale Xerath.
FridgesArePpl23 votesGlad I'm not the only one. The balance changes have eliminated the need for bans. It doesn't make sense to have bans in a mode where you can't pick your champ anyway.
XJ999999999999997 votesezreal, zilean,
xDogMeatx7 voteskeep going i like you already.
ModKnightsKemplar6 votesI am fairly opposed to seeing bans come back and the nerfs/buffs still being a thing. I want one or the other; don't super care which.
Xelynega1 votesAren't bans to get rid of champions that you don't want to play as/against and the rebalance was to curb the power level/winrate of certain champions? Some of the most banned champions, fiddlesticks for example, actually got buffs with the balance changes. I don't see why balance and frustration curbing need to be mutually exclusive of each other when they're trying to accomplish different goals.
ModKnightsKemplar2 votesThe biggest reason is that when a very strong champion gets through bans, I want to really be able to enjoy playing them.
For instance, Sona, while still objectively very strong, is much less satisfying to play now. And she's getting nerfed again this patch. If bans and the nerfs exist, I'll have to carefully weigh whether or not I want to play her even on the one game or so a month it's even possible. That's a bummer.
This is one of those opinions I don't expect everyone to share. To some players, I'm sure it makes total sense to have both. I don't expect to change their minds. But as long as we're collecting feedback, that's mine. Either/or. Not both.
ITZ ICY5 votesI'm in for bans on aram sure, but people definitely displace ARAM balance to a few champions. Yea, I don't play a lot of arams, but from my experience ADCs are way more relevant there than those "OP carry champions". Yea, 1 adc might be irrelevant, but 2+ is already a problem, bigger than a Soraka or a Veigar in enemy team. Sometimes people see an op champ instead of a really unlucky team composition.
MalignMetal2 votesFunny how the same champs are always on the unlucky team composition.
AbiwonKenabi4 votesI agree that ADCs are stronger. I even think tanks are stronger too. If your team rolls an ADC, a tank, and at least one source of magic damage, (the last two guys can be practically anything) you have a solid comp. An all poke team will lose to that team.
Ackelope3 votesespecially the divey engage melees, if you're able to make it through the first few minutes and get a couple of items rolling, you can really crush those long-rage pokers that are generally considered to be so strong in ARAM. They are, but counters exist and can totally win the game off of it. Feels great to roll engage into a bunch of mages, and it feels like crap to play a bunch of mages into engage.
JustDonnyy5 votesOh Cool. Can't wait for AAM to come back.
Because you know. It's not random anymore :)
Ackelope4 votesnot much less random than it has been for most of its lifecycle. The way ARAM has been set up for most of its existence gives a certain, relatively small pool of champions to be drawn from in the random process, and some are more likely than others to be on that list. This also allows ARAM-focused accounts to abuse the system to some extent to maximize the chances to get those high-winrate ARAM champions. All adding a ban system does is make that pool slightly smaller, while (ideally) removing the winrate-outliers, and I don't think that's an especially bad thing.
From my experience, whether it's in the context of a random-character mode of a video game, or the shuffling algorithm for a playlist of music, people don't really like true randomness that much. They prefer a sort of randomness that is modified and kept in check such that annoying outliers and repeats are kept out of the system in some way, at least most of the time.
Curious Kat4 votesThey should just unlock all the damn champs in ARAM that way aram specific accounts can go fuck themselves. Bans don't fully solve the problem.
Add bans back, AND unlock all the champ pool for it. THEN we are talking bb.
Ztoka4 votesI hate the idea of bringing bans back. One way I'd be more accepting is if they reduced the free champ pool that I can't earn a chest off of. If you are going to remove 10 potentially "fun/op" champs, shrink the pool some so the chances of getting a trash champ reduce equally..
Pika Fox4 votesThis would be one of the absolute worst moves they could physically make.
Make bans self bans for your team only, or dont add them at all.
DesreveRti4 votesAram shouldnt have anything added or taken away
FSRER2 votesUntil then, play pbe people where bans at aram still exsist.
Duke Dryfocker2 votesI'm surprised my comment led to so many responses. I must say a few things in retort to some of the replies. I play EXCLUSIVELY ARAM. I have over 6,000 games, though I haven't checked the total lately, could be over 7,000 now. And as I said before, I've been playing since season 1 and own all champs. I still believe bans are pointless and remove part of the fun of ARAM.
First off, people who enjoy ARAM like myself, and there are plenty of ARAM only players, are typically SUPER casual. We have no aspirations toward Esports competitiveness. There are no Esport gains that can be made in ARAM. It's a giant team fight in 1 lane for a reason: Because it's mindless fun. Just like URF. In fact, you could easily refer to it as URF light. That's reason enough to leave ARAM the way it is IMO. If you are getting annoyed because the other team has Veigar, then you have missed the point of the mode.
The second reason for no bans addresses OP verses Annoying. Sure Teemo can be annoying, but isn't some of the fun, learning how to beat him down? And I don't really believe in OP right now. The most recent balance changes have destroyed much of the power that the top 10 OP champs used to wield. I'll bet anything most of you aren't aware of who the most OP Champs are in ARAM right now (and it changes constantly). Guess what? While you're banning Lux, Ez, Veig, Teemo, Sona, Yi...people are winning more with Rumble, Mord, Shyv, Kassadin, Panth, Nocturne and Skarner. As some Champs get nerfs, others will always rise to fill that void. Furthermore, I have a secret. Shhhhhh, quiet...now get real close to the screen...listen carefully to this whisper...If at least 4 of you, blow past the tank, who btw is building Tank and cannot damage you, and aggressively target the backline, you can win any ARAM game! I know right!? I've been playing for 8 seasons and remarkably, everyone still engages the Tank when they initiate! Blow past him and go blow up the Sona, Veig, Lux you wanted to ban so badly! Guess what? If you blow them up, you don't have to worry about banning them! Problem solved! Write one sentence to your team, and if at least 3 of the have half a brain, you have a great shot at getting that ARAM win, if that's what's important to you. That sentence is, "Hey, we should probably target ____". How difficult is that? As far as banning annoying Champs? What Champ isn't annoying really? In the right hands, every Champ can be annoying, and every Champ has a counter. Yes, even in ARAM.
Third, Tanks positioning and aggressiveness win ARAM. Catching people out of position or dangling too far from the team is key to ARAM, as is aggressively trying to capitalize on this mistakes. And the more Tanks you have the better off you are in ARAM. But that's not who people are banning is it? So what would even change? The bans would enable someone who dislikes playing against Teemo under any circumstance, even though many of us see him as more comic relief than a serious Champ, to ban him EVERY game? Doesn't make sense to me. I like beating him down as much as I like wreaking havoc with him.
Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, because this one drives me nuts. Real ARAM only players know that "ARAM only accounts" are a fallacy, perhaps even a myth, and if they do exist, they work no better than a full account. Period. End of story. I could literally write a list of variables that nullifies the success of supposed ARAM only accounts, as long as a Novel. I even tried to make one to see if it would work. If you get only the Champs you are strong at, it doesn't even give you that much more of an advantage, if any! If you say, bought your top 14 Champs for ARAM only. Well, each week there are 14 free Champs, all of whom may not be on your owned list, and that makes your chance 50/50 of coming close to even validating your ARAM only account. So you say, well my chance was below 50% of getting my faves before I made the ARAM only. Likely, it was not. Not that many people have full accounts, and those that do typically do not play smurf accounts. They play their mains. ARAM only is a supposed shortcut that does not work. Attempted by players looking for shortcuts to winning, and complained about by players who need to make up an excuse to validate why they lose. Furthermore, the Champs on one ARAM account will not be the same for every player, so now you've added another batch of variables that nullifies intentionally limiting your Champ base as an advantage. I'm betting I can beat your ARAM Yi with my ARAM Rumble in a match more often than not.
So, IMO, limiting Champs through bans to avoid things that don't really exist, caters to bad players. This is how League slides down senseless rabbit holes. By listening to people who lose a lot, instead of players who know how to win. PS, there is no ARAM ELO. Only SR. Winning in ARAM is completely different. It requires different builds and different strategies. If I see you building jungle starting items in ARAM, I know it's gonna be GGEZ 9so keep doing that if you want).
Mr Dalloway1 votesSo basically they are catering to the people who don't know how to adapt to play against certain champs. My ARAM experience wasn't any better while bans were allowed. Never getting to play commonly banned champs makes the game less fun for everyone who enjoys those champs.
If they are going to do this they should at least bring back rotating game modes so I have something else to play.
