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An analysis of the tentative Veigar changes from a Veigar main. Pros and Cons.

Yoella··32 votes·3,515 views

So as you may or may not know Veigar was married to DFG, and after its removal he was promised compensation. Today that compensation has been revealed (albeit it isn't on the PBE quite yet) and I have honestly mixed feelings about it.

Summary of changes: Q, Baleful Strike, is now a skillshot but passes through the first target and hits the second as well. Range increased from 650 to 850, and CD is now 1 second lower at earlier ranks and 1 second higher at higher ranks.

W, Dark Matter, mana cost reduced to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110. CD reduced to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 from 10 at all ranks.

E, Event Horizon, now has a 0.75 second delay with warning particles before a stun, mana cost reduced to 80/85/90/95/100 from 80/90/100/110/120, Cooldown reduced to 18/17/16/15/14 from 20/19/18/17/16, and range increased to 700 from 650.

R, Primordial Burst, AP ratio reduced from 1.2 to 1.0, mana Cost flattened to 125 at all ranks from 125/175/225, and cooldown reduced to 120/100/80 from 130/110/90.

Now let's look at some real pro/con analysis of these changes from a practical standpoint.

The changes to Baleful Strike, Q, is a double edged sword.

Pros: Longer range, hits 2 targets, lower early CD.

Cons: Now a skillshot, less reliable, harder to target minions in a cluster, higher late game CD.

Overall whether the changes to Q are a buff or a nerf depends on the projectiles speed. On one hand the range allows for safer farming and harass, but the skillshot element makes it infinitely less reliable.

The changes to Dark Matter, W, are a straight-up buff.

Pros: Slightly reduced mana cost, and lower late game cooldowns.

Cons: None really.

The changes to E, Event Horizon, are potentially disastrous to Veigar, and could render him and all other buffs useless. This is what has most Veigar players in a tizzy. I beg Riot to reconsider these changes.

Pros: Slightly reduced mana cost, slightly reduced CD, and 50 more range.

Cons: 0.75 second delay on his stun WITH warning particles!

Ho-ly-fuck. What was Riot thinking? I understand that an instant stun is considered bs by a lot of people, but if it were really as omnipotently powerful as people say then Veigar would be a steady pick for ranked and LCS, which he definitely ISN'T. The delay WITH WARNING PARTICLES will likely singlehandedly "olaf" Veigar. In the league of mobility 0.75 seconds is a lot of time to leap away, which leaves Veigar defenseless. Not to mention he now has 0 chance to stun the likes of LeBlanc, Kassadin, or Zed who all live in his lane and teleport everywhere. Veigar already struggled with people like that, now he has almost no hope of defeating them.

Don't touch the stun Riot. Just, DON'T.

The changes to Primordial burst, R, are.. uhm... not good either.

Pros: Mana cost flattened, Cooldown reduced by 10 seconds.

Cons: AP ratio took a huge hit.

So Riot decided to buff Veigar for removing an item that made him deal 20% more damage by REMOVING another 20% of his R ratio??! What. The. Hell. The cooldown is negligible seeing as most people build at least 1 Morellonomicon on him anyway, and while the flattened mana cost is nice the damage reduction is awful, especially with non-ap mids like Zed in play.

Overall I don't think this is a buff to Veigar. I think it's actually a slight nerf, which after the removal of DFG is a death sentence.

Now how could Riot go about this differently?

  1. Revert the ratio on R back to what it was, give him some extra range on it.

  2. Get rid of that god awful 0.75 second delay on his stun, maybe reduce it to 0.5 seconds IF you disable warning particles and give him some extra base damage somewhere.

  3. Give his Q the Ahri treatment, Veigar is an immobile mage and that's a huge disadvantage so give him increased movement speed while Q is launched.

People who don't play Veigar don't realize how massive the nerfs to R and E are. They make it so that the rest of his kit may as well not exist.

61 Comments

majulito13 votes

Veigars stun isn't the easiest thing to hit for an instant stun since you need to hit the edge and is needed to land his w on anyone that is paying attention. Adding a delay will make it nearly impossible. A better solution would be to lower the stun time and reduce the delay on w. As for the ult mana cost its still higher than all other ults at this point I believe. A while ago riot was reducing ALL ult costs to 100.

MrBuffington9 votes

That's one of the things I'm sad about with these changes; one of the things that would separate good Veigar's from bad ones was the ability to land that instant stun. It's difficult to say that they should have left if untouched since it did lack counter play, but it really feels like punishment for the people who dedicated time to learning Veigar, who isn't exactly the most popular champion in the game.

From a larger gameplay perspective, an immobile, squishy short range mage without reliable CC is practically a death sentence. I want to try him out before saying anything more, though.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

That's one of the things I'm sad about with these changes; one of the things that would separate good Veigar's from bad ones was the ability to land that instant stun.

And the thing that separated good opponents of Veigar from bad opponents of Veigar was... nothing, because they're both instantly stunned. That's the definition of no counterplay.

If you really want to call yourself good at Veigar now, you'll have to start landing skillshots on NON stunned targets.

Big Lincoln1 votes

{quoted}

And the thing that separated good opponents of Veigar from bad opponents of Veigar was... nothing, because they're both instantly stunned. That's the definition of no counterplay.

If you really want to call yourself good at Veigar now, you'll have to start landing skillshots on NON stunned targets.

He has to land the very edge of his ability to stun you. That means he has a huge area you can stand in and murder him because his delayed nuke won't hit you unless you're stunned

Isn't that the definition of counterplay?

Matthias91191 votes

It's not that hard to cast it with the "edge" right on top of an enemy champion. Against melee champions he can also drop it defensively so they can't gapclose on him (unless they are Fizz or burn Flash), which is incredibly frustrating to play against; now the opponent has a chance to react before the wall goes up.

His whole kit right now is super-binary and has very little counterplay beyond "buy a Banshee's Veil or QSS and only fight him when it's up". If he lands the stun you're eating a W->Q->R combo for sure.

Is this going to "olaf" him? I don't know. But to give him more power his kit really needs to change, because with higher damage numbers he'd be broken right now.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Why is a binary, simple kit bad? Furthermore, why is giving every character extra range for skillshots good?

Not all counterplay needs to be "dodge the slow-moving/delayed skillshot," but that's the only form Riot's implemented for ages. You can bait his stun pretty hard; and when it's down he's all but fucked, especially if he missed. Now he's gone from a niche counter to mobility to getting bent over by anyone with a dash. How's that fun for Veigar?

Riot says they want to keep his identity as a burst mage, but these changes are just going to force him to fish for damage with Q pokes from until he gets you low enough to kill you or has enough AP that it doesn't matter.

But the part that stings most is the fact that the rest of his kit wasn't updated to make up for his core gameplay essentially being taken from him. W is still obnoxiously sluggish, despite its only reliable set-up being made slower, his R lost damage, and his Q's been given a longer late game cooldown which just seems unnecessary.

Matthias91191 votes

Why is a binary, simple kit bad?

In this case it makes it extremely difficult to balance Veigar.

When W->Q->R doesn't deal enough damage to kill you, or you have a Banshee's/QSS and can thus evade most of the damage, Veigar is helpless against you. (At least 1v1)

When he's able to stun and 100-0 you (or maybe poke you with Q a couple times and then burst you down) with E->W->Q->R, you are helpless against him. Most melee champs can't touch him while his E is off cooldown unless they blow Flash.

But the part that stings most is the fact that the rest of his kit wasn't updated to make up for his core gameplay essentially being taken from him. W is still obnoxiously sluggish, despite its only reliable set-up being made slower, his R lost damage, and his Q's been given a longer late game cooldown which just seems unnecessary.

With the change to Q he can -- at least in theory -- get way more stacks over time.

I don't know if that's enough to compensate for the other changes, but they could not just raise his AP ratios and leave the rest of his kit as-is. He'd be broken.

Big Lincoln1 votes

{quoted}

In this case it makes it extremely difficult to balance Veigar.

When W->Q->R doesn't deal enough damage to kill you, or you have a Banshee's/QSS and can thus evade most of the damage, Veigar is helpless against you. (At least 1v1)

When he's able to stun and 100-0 you (or maybe poke you with Q a couple times and then burst you down) with E->W->Q->R, you are helpless against him. Most melee champs can't touch him while his E is off cooldown unless they blow Flash.

But that hasn't changed. He either blows you up or he doesn't. There's nothing that was implemented in his kit to give him other options. Only now, instead of targeting your AP or hoping he can blow up your other carries with reliable damage, he can miss everything except his R, which does.. less damage. And his Q is on a second longer cooldown to punish him even harder for missing his Q.

With the change to Q he can -- at least in theory -- get way more stacks over time.

I don't know if that's enough to compensate for the other changes, but they could not just raise his AP ratios and leave the rest of his kit as-is. He'd be broken.

He didn't need any changes -- at all. I've been playing him to great success without DFG -- and I hardly built it anyway. He's one of the few champions with a cohesive kit that's designed around its delicate balance, and I'd rather not see him end up being better played for siege with nuclear Q's and maybe a lucky stun.

MarkedOfKane11 votes

I never build Deathfires on Veigar and I thought he was just fine. I personally dont think he needs to be touched.

The way his stun lands most of the time is at max range and the enemy walks into it at the very last second. Trying to land it directly has been a little awkward because of how thin the stun line is.

I think his new Q is going to make it awkward to last hit because the minion you want to farm with it could end up losing a second minion to a minion or tower.

I dont think Veigar needs to be touched at all.

Owntrolf11 votes

Veigar never needed changes. Theres already delays for his E its called CAST TIME

CrazedPorcupine1 votes

you mean that .25 second delay before any spell comes out, and that is faster than most human reaction time? you mean that cast delay?

Direwolfiez4 votes

You're forgetting the fact that him walking towards you might as well be shouting, "I'M GOING TO STUN YOU :D".

mwarme9 votes

Generally agree--Caveat, I don't like the q changes, as they mess with his identity somewhat of a "reliable burst mage, at the penalty of mobility" and I feel like just giving a mana refund on last hit like annie would be fine. If you're gonna do this to veigar, do it to annie too.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

The only real issue I see is that Riot had the chance to give Veigar a REAL Passive. One that isn't so boring and uninteractive, but no. They completely ignored it.

Cons: AP ratio took a huge hit.

So Riot decided to buff Veigar for removing an item that made him deal 20% more damage by REMOVING another 20% of his R ratio??!

The logic is supposedly R remains exactly the same in the big picture. His Q drastically increases his AP gains, so his R was nerfed to compensate.

I don't entirely agree with you on his Stun change. It needed the changes. Whether he was OP or UP was a non-issue, it was bs.

Do you know what else was BS? Pre-Rework Sion's point-and-click stun-nuke. THAT needed to be changed even if he isn't dominating any LCS.

stuartk112 votes

{quoted} I don't entirely agree with you on his Stun change. It needed the changes. Whether he was OP or UP was a non-issue, it was bs.

Do you know what else was BS? Pre-Rework Sion's point-and-click stun-nuke. THAT needed to be changed even if he isn't dominating any LCS.

My main problem with this is that it makes his W (Dark Matter) a lot less useful, since you can no longer land it as reliably. It's really easy to dodge and avoid the damage it deals, and attempting to use your E (Event Horizon) to try and land it easier will most likely not work. Your opponent can see where the edges will be, and walk out of it, or, depending on the champion, identify that you are defenceless against their attacks and engage, even if it means dashing into the middle of the event horizon. Veigar is now even weaker against mobile champions with this change to his only defensive ability.

Personally, I do feel that they're going to need to add an additional effect to those who are contained within the event horizon. Otherwise, I feel that Veigar will fall into the number of champions who are unplayable against the massively popular mobile champions.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Otherwise, I feel that Veigar will fall into the number of champions who are unplayable against the massively popular mobile champions.

Already the case dude, already the case.

Rather than worrying about his performance against mobile champions, I think you should be more concerned about said mobile champions instead.

stuartk113 votes

{quoted}

Already the case dude, already the case.

Rather than worrying about his performance against mobile champions, I think you should be more concerned about said mobile champions instead.

I am already very concerned about them after the rework on Lucian's dash. Then Kalista happened.

Veigar could at least use his E while the enemy was in mid-dash to stun them. It wasn't much, but it certainly helped. Now he doesn't even have that to help. The increased mobility of some of the champions, with very, very little trade off, is extremely concerning.

Ship 0F Ducks5 votes

no his R is a big nerf to me

I don't farm Q in lane.....that means it wont do as much damage.

his stun was an amazing utility that made him what he was in a teamfight

Taric still has such a stun...i he op? no riot always gave and gives skillshots better damage/ratios/manacosts etc basically less weaknesses compared to point and click if you can manage to land them

5G8Nri0B541 votes

You DO know that Taric is getting a rework right?

Ship 0F Ducks2 votes

but not because its broken or easy to play or etc....but because his play style is very linear.... you won't be able to tell much between a good taric and a bad taric

Partholonian1 votes

My first reaction was "you don't really think they'll remove his stun", but with the way things have been going the last year or so, maybe they will. And replace it with something that is countered by mobility, because mobile champions just don't have enough advantages over immobile champions.

qetzel1 votes

To be fair, Taric's stun isn't immediately followed up by massive burst from Taric, whereas Veigar's and ols Sion's were.

Lysdexic11 votes

{quoted}

The only real issue I see is that Riot had the chance to give Veigar a REAL Passive. One that isn't so boring and uninteractive, but no. They completely ignored it.

The logic is supposedly R remains exactly the same in the big picture. His Q drastically increases his AP gains, so his R was nerfed to compensate.

I don't entirely agree with you on his Stun change. It needed the changes. Whether he was OP or UP was a non-issue, it was bs.

Do you know what else was BS? Pre-Rework Sion's point-and-click stun-nuke. THAT needed to be changed even if he isn't dominating any LCS.

You dont seem to understand how difficult Veigar hitting his stun right on the edge actually is. Try it. You will hit a fair few, but you will in no way hit every last one. And then every time you miss, whether they be inside or outside the circle, the can just run around to avoid your dark matter while giggling like a schoolgirl at how slow it is. On top of that, they want to give it a very obvious delay particle AND make Q a skillshot, meaning the only time you will ever get a kill is when you straight up decide to flash-q-r the enemy, PROVIDED that has enough damage to do it now with the lesser ration on his ultimate. The way i see it this is a straight up nerf. What they could do to his Q to make it better to compensate is give it the power to instantly delete waves of minions late game. Say, if your Q kills the first minion hit it will keep going in a straight line until either there are no minions left or one survives.

jjookkeerr7 votes

revert the Q change, revert the ult nerf and revert the delay from E

SionideCN4 votes

You understand that there is literally no counter-play to veigar's stun in it's current iteration, right?

I'll agree the hits to his ult are a bit pointless, especially with the removal of DFG but the stun changes are to give counter-play to a skill that has none; veigar's stun may as well be point and click currently, you cannot dodge it against a veigar that knows how to do anything.

Yoella11 votes

That's why I suggested making it a 0.5 second delay without warning particles, instead of an instant stun.

And there is counterplay. Tenacity, banshee's, QSS, Morgana shield, etc.

DrCyanide14 votes

You realize counter-play only favors the mobile champions, right?

Unless the CC is a suppression (where your teammates can help you out), there's no CC that has counter-play that is equally likely to hit a mobile champion as an immobile one.

With how many mobile champions there are in the game, we need abilities without counter-play. They are a necessary evil.

qetzel2 votes

There are point and click stuns with counterplay. The counterplay is lost when they are immediately followed up by massive burst.

Partholonian1 votes

True, but it doesn't change the fact that there needs to be more counterplay OTHER THAN movement. That's the real league of mobility problem -- too many abilities have the SAME counterplay, so having an ability that's good against "move out of bad stuff" mechanics is way more valuable than almost anything else you can have in your kit.

KnivingDude3 votes

It was because Veigar and Lulu were on Riot's affairs and they finally caught him.

Grouchy Poro3 votes

I'd personally be okay with the cage delay (it's the same activation delay as Thresh ult), but there needs to be something about how the theme has been changed. Veigar is twisting the fabric of space to make this cage; you'd think you wouldn't be able to just blink out of it. Basically I like the thematic approach with the 'you're trapped' cage but they need to make it a 'YOU'RE FRIKIN TRAPPED M8, BLOW YOUR FLASH OR STAY IN THERE' kinda thing.

DrCyanide6 votes

The big difference is that Thresh has not one, but two ways of ensuring his foes stay inside the cage. Thresh doesn't need the cage for follow up either, it is its own utility and damage. Veigar can't land a W without his E. He has no way to hold someone down or keep them there while it activates.

I do agree that the cage should feel like a cage, rather than a "lol whatever, I'll blink out and kill you now". I would love to see it have some sort of "no-dash-zone" effect, where you can't blink or dash out. Shorten the duration as needed, but that's the kind of ability that League of Mobility needs.

Thelmon7 votes

They should make it where if you use your W inside your E, after the W delay, it deals damage to anything inside or on the edge of the E. Basically increasing the size of W when used with E.

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

They should make it where if you use your W inside your E, after the W delay, it deals damage to anything inside or on the edge of the E. Basically increasing the size of W when used with E.

This.........actually makes a lot of sense considering the origins of his kit, with the whole cosmos-schtick. Tbh, rather than making it autoconnect, perhaps amplify the radius, and this would be a viable buff considering how difficult landing his e will be if this goes live. Personally, I'm........ok with the current changes, considering how bad they could have been, but like it's been said, at least wait until it hits the PBE, let alone live before we pass all this judgement.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

They should make it where if you use your W inside your E, after the W delay, it deals damage to anything inside or on the edge of the E. Basically increasing the size of W when used with E.

That seems like a cool idea to me. :)

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

If they HAVE to give warning particles for his e then make it so the particles are on Veigar himself. Make his gauntlet glow red so if the enemy has eyes on Veigar they'll know when he's about to use his stun but this means Veigar can try to fake them out by estimating where they'd likely run to.

It'd still make him meat for any assassin, but at least it wouldn't be completely missable.

Or maybe they could make Veigar's e a bit like Azir's ult and have it so you can't dash out of it or anything until it ends.

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

Or maybe they could make Veigar's e a bit like Azir's ult and have it so you can't dash out of it or anything until it ends.

HELL NO, making a basic ability BETTER than an ult? It was already fixed a long while ago that even if a champ dashes through it, they'll still be stunned after the movement ends, that e still supplies a shitton of zoning as it is (flash/blink notwithstanding)

Rinky Dinky3 votes

Inside of the cage has a slow.

Boom.

Problem solved.

Helmight3 votes

The thing with Veigar's Event Horizon is that it's basically an ultimate-level ability on a basic ability cooldown. It is by far and away the strongest part of his kit and needed nerfs if they ever wanted to buff the rest of his kit. I am willing to accept warning particles if it means Veigar as a whole is in a better place.

Jeddy0172 votes

I don't know if this means anything,but there have been talks of a new 120 AP item in the works to replace DFG.Maybe this item was taken into consideration when the Balance team made this rework.

Just food for thought.

Sw3dCannon2 votes

The changes to E, Event Horizon, are potentially disastrous to Veigar, and could render him and all other buffs useless. This is what has most Veigar players in a tizzy. I beg Riot to reconsider these changes.

Pros: Slightly reduced mana cost, slightly reduced CD, and 50 more range.

Cons: 0.75 second delay on his stun WITH warning particles!

Ho-ly-fuck. What was Riot thinking? I understand that an instant stun is considered bs by a lot of people, but if it were really as omnipotently powerful as people say then Veigar would be a steady pick for ranked and LCS, which he definitely ISN'T. The delay WITH WARNING PARTICLES will likely singlehandedly "olaf" Veigar. In the league of mobility 0.75 seconds is a lot of time to leap away, which leaves Veigar defenseless. Not to mention he now has 0 chance to stun the likes of LeBlanc, Kassadin, or Zed who all live in his lane and teleport everywhere. Veigar already struggled with people like that, now he has almost no hope of defeating them.

Don't touch the stun Riot. Just, DON'T.<

He may not be a pick in the LCS, but I'm pretty sure the Koreans have been picking him up a few times because of how good that stun is (mainly in the support role). The stun was like Talon silence, if you got caught you could literally do nothing unless you managed to guess where he was going to plant it (unlike Talon who if you got to you, you are usually just dead) but if the veigar was competent that usually never happens.

However I dont play Veigar but what I do know is that despite that, with this crazy mobility creep, I do agree this could potentially screw him over.

I do think Riot should change the stun, whether this is the right direction I dunno. I say give it a go before hating on it.

Droogzy2 votes

I've always though Veigar's instant stun to be one of the biggest bull shit in the game, but even this a little too much.

I think a delay on the stun is fair, the concept of instant stun=death was infuriating, but .75 seconds is too long...with warning particles too. I think .5 seconds would be better, I would say even .25 seconds is enough time. Definitely remove the particles, it's already obvious to tell when Veigar is going to drop it, we don't need indications of it.

straight4free2 votes

His E just needs additional utility if it is going to have a warning time.

Makes the sides block projectiles (Nothing could ever pass through an event horizon), or

disable movement abilities within the cage, or

increase damage taken by enemies in the cage, or

leave the damn stun be.

Saixos1 votes

I don't really have too much of an opinion on most of this, I don't know veigar well enough. All I know is that his stun tends to piss me off as an ADC main cos it gets popped on my head and then I die and can't do shit about it >.<

While reading this I had an odd thought though. Why don't they let veigar's stun work similar to thresh's box, in that the walls are individually consumed when stunning champions. It'd still be instant, but it would allow some counterplay and workarounds, and force veigar's to consider more carefully where and how they place their box in order to stun multiple people/be most effective. What would be your thoughts on that change, instead of riots proposed change @OP?

DoctorInju1 votes

Why not remove the warning from the W? Still have the delay, but no warning about its impact point. Did Veigar guess where you'd be? Is he hoping to bait out your mobility CD? Is it aimed at you, behind you, in front of you?

Economicz1 votes

Lol boards: where we jump to conclusions instead of testing or looking at real data... Riot is adding counterplay to a broken design and giving moderate buffs to compensate. They're rebuffing Syndra, so if veigar's buffs aren't enough they'll probably buff him.

jjookkeerr1 votes

{quoted}

so if veigar's buffs aren't enough they'll probably buff him.

what buffs? 1 more second on q? q no onger a skill shot? 0,75 delay on E? -0,2 ap ratio on ult? NICE BUFFS

gameipedia1 votes

ok I'm pretty sure everyone can agree the main topic of this is his stun, honestly if the make the delay .5 seconds instead i think its fine, just target for the center of the bot rather than the edge so when they try to escape they run into it, not that hard to do lol

MXXIV1 votes

Why did the do it to me? I mained Veigar. Until today. The Q change hurts me actually.

Dengeden1 votes

I am of the humble opinion that Veigar's stun was freaking unreliable either way. So giving it more range makes it a more effective zoning tool. Eh, maybe I'm wrong. What's more, when did his ult ever kill anything early on? The ratio reduction shouldn't matter until he gets more AP. At that point, the reduced CD on Q (cuz you level that last, right?) and W should somewhat make up for it (and maybe he'll get more AP stacks from his Q too? We'll see)

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