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So, a lot of people have been starting to complain about Rylais.. (A Morde thread, again...)

Malicious Metal··78 votes·5,271 views

Let me start this off by saying I don't deny Rylais can be a real problem on certain champs. Hell, playing against Azir with Rylais is one of the worst experiences there is in League but now that people are actually starting to demand nerfs to Rylais I just have to talk about the ONE champ who relies 100% on being able to get Rylais:

MORDEKAISER

Yes, Mordekaiser doesn't even feel like a real champion before he gets Rylais. His entire kit as a no CC/NO Mobility Melee juggernaut is flawed and would never work if he wasn't able to get this item.

So, in the case that Riot decides to Nerf Rylais Mordekaiser will suffer heavily from it and may, depending on the changes, even fall beyond 40% win rate.

So, before a random PBE update indirectly destroys my favorite champs let's just try and explore some changes that can be made to Rylais to "combat" The "issue" of Mages abusing the item?

-Lower AP, increase HP -Up gold cost (though it would hurt Morde a lot) -Make the slow reduced for ranged/better for melee (my personal favorite if you were to change the slow amount)

But alas, Changing the item with regards to Morde might not work out so if the item does get nerfed Morde NEEDS to be compensated. I suggest the following if this is the case: -If HP gets nerfed; Beef up his base stats so that he doesn't die because he can't get an early bulk of hp -If the slow gets nerfed; Give him more Movement Speed -AP gets nerfed; Couldn't care less actually

Just me already getting his Jimmies rustled over the possibility that Rylais might get changed.

144 Comments

ltmetal26 votes

Champions currently abusing Rylai's at the pro level: Azir Viktor Zyra Malzahar Note that they are all ranged, and all focused on DPS/Burst.

Champions with low or shaky winrates who still benefit greatly from Rylai's: Mordekaiser Akali Elise Rumble Singed Note that they are all melee (except for Elise sorta) and reliant on building at least some survivability.

Outliers who build Rylai's but don't abuse/require it to function: AurelionSol Heimerdinger Taliyah Vladimir Karthus Kennen Although all of these champs enjoy the stats and passive of Rylai's, removing Rylai's entirely still wouldn't slow down their 6 item build, simply replacing it with another AP+Health item.

Taking these 20 champions into account makes it look like nerfing the slow on a ranged user is an acceptable fix.

EDIT: To all of the people out there saying, "But what about muh Cassiopeia Brand ?" I accept your complaints as valid responses, however I chose not to mention these champions for specific reasons. The one reason that pertains to both of them is that they build Rylai's simply because it is too strong right now. Ideally, Rylai's will be reduced in power to the point where it is a utility option only built in situations where you need the health or disengage. The main reason every Brand builds Rylai's right now is that it is more gold efficient and more powerful than his other options, and that's not what balance looks like.

Malicious Metal20 votes

Let's be real here. Frozen mallet's passive is less effective on ranged so why shouldn't Rylais?

kDrakari11 votes

I think the theory is that Frozen Mallet is applied using auto attacks, so ranged attackers have a much easier and safer time applying the slow, which is why they get less reward from it. Rylai's is dependent on spells, so auto attack range doesn't really have anything to do with how easily or safely they can apply it; instead the slow varies based on the type of spell so multi-target spells don't get too much value and DoT spells aren't crippling. I think that both items have the slow they provide vary in a reasonable way, and I don't think that a ranged versus a melee auto attack should be a deciding factor in an item that isn't related to auto attacks at all.

The thing that I think is different between them in an important way is that Frozen Mallet has a HUGE amount of HP turning it into a non-viable item for damage dealers. Rylai's has a lot less of its cost tied up in health, thus a lot more damage so it can be used efficiently in full-damage builds on champions that have sustained damage patterns, rather than as a defensive option or for champions that need real survivability and chase potential.

Malicious Metal7 votes

Well, Rylais used to have a mere 80 AP and 500 health.

I'd actually love some more HP on it and make it a defensive option. Hell, it has more AP than Zhonyas.

70 AP and 600 hp would be the dream :^)

Wheatloaf1 votes

That would be a good idea, as part of the problem is how universal Rylai's is. Dunno if "Morde's Dream Item" is a good niche for it, but the basic concept is appreciated ;)

Malicious Metal4 votes

Yeah, the problem with most AP items at the moment is how much offensive power they got on top of defensive stats.

Rylais being more of a kite/defensive option that a big ticket damage item would probably do the trick.

Votable Jester13 votes

There are already so few high AP items though. I don't really want to lose another.

I think they just need to make it treat Azir's soldier attacks as pet attacks (which applies a 20% slow) rather than as aoe spells (40% slow).

Aptest5 votes

there's definitely a case for a couple of high AP items to exist.

RCS should definitely not be one of them.

Votable Jester3 votes

Then they should add another one to replace it if they nerf it down to ~60 AP like Zhonya's. If I want to go glass-cannon, there should be enough items for me to do that. As it is, I build literally all the item 1058 upgrades (minus item 3003 generally) and of course a item 3135 when I go glass cannon.

If item 3116 ceases to be a high AP item, there needs to be another item to take its place. ADCs have plenty of options when building pure damage, so why shouldn't mages?

Nuparu3 votes

IMO Ludens and Runic Echoes need their AP ticked up by 20 again.

For a pure AP, high damage item, neither seem like they offer that much in comparison to the other options present, especially Ludens. Runic is okay because it offers clear time, but a bit more AP to scale into later would be nice.

Aptest7 votes

I am definitely ok with luden's / runic echo getting more AP.

From my perspective, there should be 3 classes of items

burst items for getting the most out of your immediate (QWER in quick succession) single rotation (luden is here). With AOE and single target as sub categories. These should have the most AP, and the least CDR. They should also not have any low CD sheen procs nor should they offer any significant utility.

DPS items for increasing your overall damage at the cost of single rotation burst. These should offer CDR and extra damage effects (lich bane, torment), but should not have as much AP. If these items have spell penetration it should be % bonus MR, not flat (I.E. against tanks, not against carries). The items should be balanced such that extra damage per rotation is only attained after 2+ spell rotations or 2+ procs of the "spell effect". Lich bane and torment belong here. These items can offer survivability. ROA and chalice are potentially here.

Utility items where damage is sacrificed for play-making ability, awesome passives and actives. some of the "survival" items belong here, and also LCS, zonya, FQC. the idea is you get an awesome active that lets you do awesome stuff, and you have to give up your ability to put damage out to get it.

HaloDragonX13 votes

Aurelion needs it to function, wtf.

Monadu Monadont6 votes

I feel like everyone is forgetting about Cassiopeia. She NEEDS Rylai's to be effective, otherwise she won't be able to kite, ever.

shalexade5 votes

Rylais is absolutely core on Taliyah

TWITCHTV ERONATE1 votes

how does akali even benefit from rylai's

Votable Jester4 votes

HP, AP, and a slow (as if you could kite Akali anyway).

TWITCHTV ERONATE1 votes

the slow is pretty useless on her, that's what i meant item 3151 would be a better choice for her tbh

Votable Jester1 votes

I wasn't saying that Rylai's is a good item for her. I was just pointing out that it everything about it benefits her (though I suppose every part of every item in the game benefits her to some extent).

Fair Champion2 votes

Karthus main here. After the wall nerf, Karthus is absolutely dependent on Rylai's in the mid to late game. Otherwise, Karthus is way too easily kited, and can't do any kiting himself (which is necessary for a DPS mage). Rylai's definitely needs nerfs, but removing it would harm Karthus a lot.

Goosetard9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEtRdTOH,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-19T17:54:24.950+0000)

MORDEKAISER

Yes, Mordekaiser doesn't even feel like a real champion before he gets Rylais. His entire kit as a no CC/NO Mobility Melee juggernaut is flawed and would never work if he wasn't able to get this item.

So, in the case that Riot decides to Nerf Rylais Mordekaiser will suffer heavily from it and may, depending on the changes, even fall beyond 40% win rate.

His kit IS flawed, the rework was a colossal failure and a giant middle finger to anyone who liked the champion. Rylais is the only thing propping him up right now. He already got dicked. Rylais is the only reason it feels like he didn't. Changing the item won't change what really happened to him.

cyberchade4 votes

man if rylais's getts nerfed morde won't be the only champoin to suffer Cassiopeia Vladimir AurelionSol Brand Viktor

Hella Kaiser1 votes

i never build rylai on brand or viktor... and i still carry...

Flitchee1 votes

Brand it is essential because for some ungodly reason it applies on his passive, which is just way too strong to pass up. Viktor it isn't really 100% neccessary, but still a good buy. The rest do need it quite a bit.

Hella Kaiser1 votes

why do i need to slow, if i can just qewr to ista-kill 4 people?

Flitchee1 votes

That is assuming all your abilities hit, considering that that combo will achieve nothing, because it is the complete wrong order.

Hella Kaiser1 votes

q-apply passive, e-spread passive, w-massve dmg, r-dmggggg

Flitchee1 votes

Not the best combo man, if you don't use q for a stun, your damage outside of a sinlge r bounce and e, is no longer guaranteed. and your w is a lot of your damage. not getting rylais, ensures people just walk away from you, and if you don't land your stun without rylais, you're sure as hell not getting kills.

Hella Kaiser1 votes

i'm in bronze... i'm gonna get all 5 with my w... trust me... #BronzeMagic

LithiumWednesday4 votes

Honestly they just need to change Azir soldiers to interact like a DOT or not even apply spell effects. The Rylais changes were nice for a lot of champs, but the AP pseudo-ADC simply isn't a champion that needs CC that extreme.

Bisaknosp4 votes

people demand many things riot should just ignore them since they keep talking shit about everything this month it is rylais next month it is rabadons i can already see it coming 'giF tuu mUcch aaap'

Sona x Rubick3 votes

malicious, do you like to be slowed for 4 second just because you got hit by a brand spell?

i agree that mordekaiser will be weaker, but permaslow can't exist in this game (Ashe i dare say) remember skarner?

they should put a cooldown on rylai and then buff mordekaiser.

Malicious Metal9 votes

What about SInged? And Rumble? Ap bruisers who rely on the stickiness?

I say nerf the slow for ranged and buff it for melee, anyone would be happy.

Sona x Rubick3 votes

singed doesn't really need rylai to stick to a target, he needs it to slow people chasing him.

but i got your point, it would hurt other champions in that case my idea isn't good.

Anags1 votes

Makes you wonder what people did before that item had the slow effect right.

That said people were complaining about this when it first came out. And I believe the slow may have been better then but I could be wrong.

But there is also frozen mallet and iceborn in the game as well. Frozen mallet's stats are significantly worse tbough.

underscores2226 votes

Rylais has been a part of the game since season 1

Anags1 votes

The slow was a lot different. When the slow on aoe abilities got buffed is when it became a really good item. And the single tar get slow got buffed at the same time.

The item was there before sure but it wasn't that good.

ltmetal1 votes

Permaslow is obnoxious, but is it gamebreaking?

I would propose a compromise. Here is the current text on Rylai's:

UNIQUE - Icy: Damaging abilities slow affected units based on their type: Single Target: 40% for 1.5 seconds Multi Target: 40% for 1 second Damage over Time, Multi Hit, and Pet Attacks: 20% for 1 second

With the live iteration, Rylai's varies its slow strength and duration based off of spell targeting. This has enabled champions like Morde, Brand, and Malzahar to chain slow targets for 5-10 seconds, usually because their target simply stood too close. Here is my proposed new text:

UNIQUE - Icy: Damaging abilities slow affected units by a maximum of 40% for 1 second. Max slow is achieved at 200 range and decays by 5% every 100 additional range, to a minimum of 10%. Multi Target spells, Damage over Time spells, and Pet Attacks slow for half value.

With this iteration, champions like Malzahar and Singed will still be able to kite but not able to engage without other items like item 3152 or item 3800 . Landing a max range Azir Q (875 units) would now slow for only 5%, meaning he should just buy a Luden's if his plan is to poke. Additionally, if Mordekaiser or Brand land Children of the Grave or Conflagration respectively, flashing away from their other abilities means although you are slowed longer than 5 seconds, you are over 1000 units away and slowed by 5%, meaning you are practically home free.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm okay with a slow that long if it's only good on condition.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

i don't know, just that riot hates permaslow.

Malicious Metal2 votes

They did remove it from Skarner's old Q

RIP :(

Monadu Monadont4 votes

That'd be a pretty groundbreaking nerf for mages that rely on kiting to do anything useful (like Cassio).

MorgManBasher3 votes

Heimer pretty much needs rylais as well, just saying. If you don't build it on Heimer you are pretty much wasting all his potential. Nerfing item 3116 would be a pretty huge nerf to heimer.

Instead of screwing a lot of other champs, how about you fix those who abuse it instead.

I straight up wouldn't play Rumble anymore if item 3116 sucked

SeaWyrm3 votes

The one champ who relies on it, hmm? AurelionSol There are others.

Ralanr1 votes

I know it wouldn't help with Mordekaiser's abilities, but could Frozen Mallet be a good replacement in case they nerf Ryli's too hard?

Malicious Metal3 votes

It won't. He'll need to get into melee range to apply to slow. Applying it from 600ish range with his siphon and Ultimate helps him get into melee range and be of any use to his team.

Ralanr1 votes

Damn.

What if you utilized Ghost and the summoner spell cooldown mastery? Or do you already do that?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

lol item 3116 cost a good amount. 3200 gold ? so to take a champ like Mordekaiser who is a sitting duck and has no power til that item and complain that its a problem is kinda stupid. you dont like playing vs Mordekaiser , ban him. if your vr Mordekaiser in lane ask for ganks, snowball him into the ground. take items like summoner 14 item 3009 item 3140 and beat him.

GaleWinUnleashed45 votes

Um, he's arguing for Mordekaiser's case, not against it. Check his name; "Malicious Metal" plays almost exclusively Mordekaiser.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

SlushieDee20 votes

More like Common Sense Unleashed, amirite? ok no ill go die now :(

SaltyKracka1 votes

Let's be real.

Half the reason the rest of Morde's kit has to be so weak is because of how epically cancer he is and always has been with Rylai's.

Spammable resourceless slows from range and the 10 seconds of AIDS are not just the crutches propping him up; they're also the reason Riot has slapped a hard ceiling on him.

Mistress Madoka6 votes

Not Resourceless. Costs HP

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