Bring back the Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock metas - PLEASE!

BlueBilberry·Jul 13, 2018·67 votes·13,984 views

Once upon a time, it was:

(Rock) The job of marksmen was to tear down the tanks and towers.
(Paper) The bruisers and assassins had the job of destroying the marksmen.
(Scissors) The tanks had the job of being the front line, guarding the marksmen from the bruisers and assassins. They, like the bruisers and assassins, were slow at taking down towers.
(Lizard) The mages had the job of doing the damage to the tanks when they built too much armor.
(Spock) The supports had the job of keeping the squishy mages and marksmen alive until the late game.

Can we get this back please?

46 Comments

Warlord RhinarkJul 13, 201832 votes

Wouldn't the analogy make more sense if tanks were rocks, marksmen were paper, and assassins were scissors?

Also, yes, I support this.

BlueBilberryJul 13, 20181 votes

Perhaps - but I had covered the roles in the order that often appears for the champ types in the forums. It would be interesting though to try and work out which role matches which one of the parts in the game.

saltranJul 13, 201818 votes

Adcs are the Rock because adc mains are pure salt.

Source: Me, adc main.

Jeddy017Jul 14, 20185 votes

Name checks out.

saltranJul 14, 20182 votes

I still want to unironically remove the Gameplay Boards

Critmaster GarenJul 13, 201818 votes

{quoted}

Once upon a time, it was:

(Rock) The job of marksmen was to tear down the tanks and towers.

this was a gigantic problem. youre saying, that their job was to take down tanks and towers, but in reality it means being able to take down tanks, meant they could take down anyone with their previous mechanics. and taking towers and baron/drakes quickly is one of the most important jobs in the game.

both of these combined lead to maksmen being 100% mandatory to every teamcomp for almost 8 years.

right now, marksmen are still really strong at taking down tanks. but they arent the best at taking other objectives anymore, and "only" equally good. this is a good thing and part of the reason why were seeing increased champion diversity in bot lane right now.

i think turrets need to fall over less quickly in the early game, but bringing everyone closer together relative to each other in objective damage was a good change.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 13, 20188 votes

Now hold on a second here.

So, you say that marksmen's only job is to be tank killers. Alright, that's all find and dandy...until you look at the rest of the roles.

If only marksmen are supposed to be tank killers, then what about bruisers? I thought that was also supposed to be their job -- I mean, we gave them a tailor-made keystone precisely for the purpose of killing tanks. But then they also are supposed to be able to function as off-DPS champs, and should be able to take down squishy classes (like our friend the marksman) because, well, they're squishy (hmmmm, seems they're a little target agnostic. Now wasn't that something everyone complained about for a certain other class?).

And of course, we can't forget our DPS mage friends. They are also supposed to be the mages that are masters of tank busting -- and they are, don't get me wrong -- but again, they are great at being squishy killers.

So currently, that's an entire other class plus a sub-class that are supposed to be tank killers. But also they are great at killing squishy champions and functioning as DPS carries. Oh, and because of buffs to AP's turret taking in addition to Blue Elixir which has made AP better at turret taking whenever it's bought, they fulfill every niche that marksmen used to cover.

So: if you had to take a pick between a class that excels at only one thing, but has to spend more gold then other classes in order to do it, and takes them an entire item inventory as well OR you can pick one (or another!) that is at minimum good, if not in some cases great at several things, including the one that the first class is supposed to be best at, which would you choose?

BlueBilberryJul 13, 20184 votes

I need to chip in here -one small quibble...

If we go back far enough, the rise of the bruisers were initially caused by the rise of Black Cleaver (hence, the "League of Cleaver" meta which nearly busted the game back in Season 3). And bruisers initially were not in the beginning supposed to be able to overcome tanks that easily - hence, the jungler's role was to help them win lane. (I like to think it is one reason why the complaining toxic Riven main meme came into being.)

Before the Cleaver, lest we forget, it was a case that a tank could beat a bruiser if the bruiser was stupid enough to go toe to toe while they were in lane. The jungler rose in significance in getting the Rivens, Dariuses, etc., out of lane so they could wreak their havoc on other lanes. But when the Cleaver was introduced (see https://www.thescoreesports.com/news/13511-how-did-this-happen-league-of-cleavers for more), nearly all elements of tactics and strategy were thrown out the window - LoL became a game run by a single item. (And to be honest, we are nearly in that state again - except it is not one item, rather it is the same effect caused by that item - the rise of a "true damage" meta.)

Unfortunately, that brief interval brought in quite a few bruiser players who love their respective champs (and I can't blame them really). But to get back to that point, the answer is no - bruisers were not supposed to beat tanks easily.

SolargeoJul 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEE8K2Xy,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-07-13T20:20:51.297+0000)

Now hold on a second here.

So, you say that marksmen's only job is to be tank killers. Alright, that's all find and dandy...until you look at the rest of the roles.

If only marksmen are supposed to be tank killers, then what about bruisers? I thought that was also supposed to be their job -- I mean, we gave them a tailor-made keystone precisely for the purpose of killing tanks. But then they also are supposed to be able to function as off-DPS champs, and should be able to take down squishy classes (like our friend the marksman) because, well, they're squishy (hmmmm, seems they're a little target agnostic. Now wasn't that something everyone complained about for a certain other class?).

And of course, we can't forget our DPS mage friends. They are also supposed to be the mages that are masters of tank busting -- and they are, don't get me wrong -- but again, they are great at being squishy killers.

So currently, that's an entire other class plus a sub-class that are supposed to be tank killers. But also they are great at killing squishy champions and functioning as DPS carries. Oh, and because of buffs to AP's turret taking in addition to Blue Elixir which has made AP better at turret taking whenever it's bought, they fulfill every niche that marksmen used to cover.

So: if you had to take a pick between a class that excels at only one thing, but has to spend more gold then other classes in order to do it, and takes them an entire item inventory as well OR you can pick one (or another!) that is at minimum good, if not in some cases great at several things, including the one that the first class is supposed to be best at, which would you choose?

Soo buff tanks a bit?

TehNACHOJul 13, 20181 votes

The turret thing isn't so much a problem as it is a side effect of the mechanics of the game. Ignoring exceptions, the only way to damage turrets are through auto attacks and, for reasons I hope I don't need to explain, champions who built AD, AS, and were ranged really got the maximum bang for their buck in that area. It's like saying having Junglers and Supports are a "problem" in this game because team comps designed themselves around maximizing 3 streams of gold (Jungle wasn't that much of a viable gold stream in the earlier versions of League). People finding solutions to these elements in League's designs aren't problems; they're literally solutions to the problems.

Anyway nitpicking aside, there's a strong argument to be made for the specialization of champions in League, especially in how we're waaaaay over 100 champions already and it'd be entirely pointless to have all of them do the exact same thing. If we're going to homogenize the general strength of taking down towers, how should that square with champions with abilities specifically designed around killing towers like Ziggs and Tristana?

TheSingularityJul 14, 20181 votes

Generally sustained dps, not bps combined with life steal resulted in marksman countering tanks. It would be slow enough that mages could burst down an adc b4 they could dps down a mage.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 14, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEE8K2Xy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-13T19:08:57.573+0000)

this was a gigantic problem. youre saying, that their job was to take down tanks and towers, but in reality it means being able to take down tanks, meant they could take down anyone with their previous mechanics. and taking towers and baron/drakes quickly is one of the most important jobs in the game.

"Nerf paper. Scissors is fine though." - Rock

Critmaster GarenJul 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

"Nerf paper. Scissors is fine though." - Rock

"more like nerf paper." - everyone

im not doubting their role as counters to tanks, but that they had every important job there is in this game.

no champion type should be 100% mandatory, and being the largest source of reliable sustained damage to champions (not just tanks), turrets and jungle monsters made marksmen too important to have for every teamcomp.

it wasnt rock, paper, scissors. it was paper counters everything and everything played around paper.

Mast3rShakeJul 14, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEE8K2Xy,comment-id=000300030000,timestamp=2018-07-14T10:27:53.894+0000)

no champion type should be 100% mandatory

Why? Because you believe so?

I think there are two classes that should be mandatory, tanks and marksman. After those two classes you can complete your team around them. This leaves a certain amount of consistency in the game and still allows for diversity.

Also, the majority of the player base do not play marksman so of course most of them will want to nerf them. In a game of chess there is a piece that is the strongest, the queen. Marksman just happen to be the queen in league. Other pieces either want to protect their queen at all costs or take out the other sides queen. Once one side loses a queen they typically win that fight as should be the case. There should be annobvious goal in a team fight, and if everyone in a team fight is of equal strength and value the game devolves in random crap.

Critmaster GarenJul 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think there are two classes that should be mandatory, tanks and marksman.

why? because you believe so?

marksmen are just one type of carry next to skirmishers, ap carries, juggernauts, certain divers. they all have the same role of dealing sustained damage with different advantages and disadvantages attached to their playstile.

the fact that marksmen took and for the most part are still taking a permanent spot on a team severely cripples other carry types viability.

when marksmen are strong enough to be mandatory, teamcomps built around one marksman are typically more successful than teamcomps with one marksman and a second carry in another position. because its easier to enable, protect and support one carry with 4 people, than 2 carries with 3 people.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Jul 13, 20185 votes

Aka revert this cancer season.

BlueBilberryJul 13, 20185 votes

Not too far off the mark - more than just revert this season though. Also, I wouldn't call it cancer though - that belittles a serious disease.

bbQsauçeJul 14, 20185 votes

[deleted]

Mast3rShakeJul 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The job of marksmen was to kill everyone. The job of bruisers and assassins was to kill the marksmen. The tanks had the job of being the front line for their marksmen. The mages had the job of killing the marksmen. The supports had the job of keeping their marksmen alive.

No thanks. I don't want a game that revolves around 1 mandatory clas..

So, they should nerf the queen in chess too?

There should 100% be mandatory classes, just as their are stronger and weaker pieces in chess but all need to work together to maximize their strength.

bbQsauçeJul 14, 20182 votes

[deleted]

BlueBilberryJul 14, 20181 votes

Actually, in the past, if any lane is and has been poorly performing, then the game could be tilted very easily in favour of one side or the other.

I've seen games lost when the mid, top or jungle fell behind. The botlane just got the blame in the past because some of the metas have strongly favoured camping and farming kills on that lane. Moreover, some of the laners at lower tiers have had a tendency to get tunnelvision on their lanes and not notice what was happening elsewhere until they suddenly realized that the game was over. (Remember that commonly quoted line about toplane being an island? Case in point.)

BlueBilberryJul 14, 20181 votes

Even the queen in chess can be rendered insignificant -whether by sacrifice, neutralization or capture - depending on the position and the tactics/strategies present on the board.

However, let's not put bruisers in the same class as a chess queen. But if we must: the queen has a clear value in chess; bruisers however are right now completely overvalued and worth more pawns in some people's minds than they should be.

ModAcademy KaynJul 13, 20184 votes

(Lizard) The mages had the job of doing the damage to the tanks when they built too much armor.

Wat

Violet FieldsJul 13, 20184 votes

I'd rather have Tanks > Burst > DPS > Tanks

than

Assassins > Marksman > Tanks

KelgJul 14, 20184 votes

I don't agree at all, and to be honest I hated the last few seasons.

You're basically saying

Assassins: kill marksman Bruiser: kill marksman Tanks: protect marksman Support: Protect marksman Mage: Kill marksman's protection (wow what a useful and needed class) Marksman: Clear all objectives and kill everyone while being protected

Downvote me all you want, but I don't think the entire game should boil down to 'what does this role do to the marksman'. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

People forget that bruisers and mages were actually supposed to be a marksman alternative.

Whisper87Jul 13, 20183 votes

Yes plz

NoceurJul 14, 20183 votes

https://image.ibb.co/i2f6fn/League_Roles2.jpg

BlueBilberryJul 14, 20181 votes

Not bad! Got my approval on that one.

Jeanne fan clubJul 14, 20183 votes

Wow, what a shi*ty job mages have

BlueBilberryJul 14, 20181 votes

Not really - a role is a role. Mages are a carry, And they are just as important as the other roles.

Jeanne fan clubJul 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not really - a role is a role. Mages are a carry, And they are just as important as the other roles.

Yeah I know, but the way op described a mages role is kind of sad xd.

heroikcJul 13, 20182 votes

Aptly said, I approve [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

JamenawerlJul 13, 20182 votes

(Rock) The job of marksmen was to tear down the tanks and towers.

And everything else for that matter.

(Scissors) The tanks had the job of being the front line, guarding the marksmen from the bruisers and assassins. They, like the bruisers and assassins, were slow at taking down towers.

Only wardens were specialized in peeling. Both vanguards and juggernauts couldnt do much to stop an assassin. Many AD bruisers and assassins excel at taking towers even if they are not ADCs.

(Lizard) The mages had the job of doing the damage to the tanks when they built too much armor.

Uh, what? That was never their job. You can actually ignore mages building only HP, although to a lesser degree. They have always been focused on bursting squishies, waveclearing and bringing AoE dmg and cc. Forcing the tank to build MR is a nice extra but thats about it. There have been some viable full AD comps in the past when mages werent needed.

I could argue that points 2 and 5 still hold true but anyway nostalgia googles are real.

Beacon AcademyJul 13, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You can actually ignore mages building only HP, although to a lesser degree.

inb4 old Malzahar , melter of squishies and tanks alike.

ModAcademy KaynJul 13, 20181 votes

Old Malz, Master of "I didn't hit the wrong person, I meant to kill that tank."

GrReaper96Jul 13, 20182 votes

Mages are supposed to waveclear and bring cc to the team, not "force em to build MR"

BlueBilberryJul 13, 20183 votes

Well, mages were the other main carry - and had to do carry-like things too.

But I would suggest it is foolish to diminish the "force em to build MR" effect. League also has an economy to it - and players had to weigh the costs of choosing certain items - and the selection between purchasing armor, health and magic resist items for tanks, is and has been, a factor. And if the opposing tanks ignored the mages, and chose not to allocate resources to buying MR, then the team had a fairly easy game.

(Ironically, that same phenomenon happened in about 2014 and 2016, if memory serves.)

DNFVixenJul 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Once upon a time, it was:

(Rock) The job of marksmen was to tear down the tanks and towers.

(Paper) The bruisers and assassins had the job of destroying the marksmen.

(Scissors) The tanks had the job of being the front line, guarding the marksmen from the bruisers and assassins. They, like the bruisers and assassins, were slow at taking down towers.

(Lizard) The mages had the job of doing the damage to the tanks when they built too much armor.

(Spock) The supports had the job of keeping the squishy mages and marksmen alive until the late game.

Can we get this back please?

I want the old rock paper scissors back but with Ghostcancer in power it isn't going to happen.

MythPuppyJul 14, 20182 votes

I support this

Elon is BaeJul 14, 20182 votes

Totally agree. The rolls are totally mixed up and this is League's biggest problem right now. Tanks deal tons of damage, bruisers are unkillable, etc...

UnknownTerritoryJul 14, 20182 votes

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! [sg-soraka]

Leto GTJul 14, 20181 votes

I wouldn't define mages the way you did considering there's a several types of mages. The simplest segmentation would be : Assassins (fizz, lb), control mages (anivia, orianna) and hybrids (ahri, syndra) . None of them focusing on tanks actually... Maybe control mages indirectly.

BlueBilberryJul 14, 20181 votes

If we start splitting hairs and breaking the down classes via the "well, this champion can also do this...", then we get into the current mess that we are in now. Because of "diversity", we've let things get so vague that we now have assassin-supports, mage-bruisers, assassin-bruisers, mage-assassins, tank-bruisers, and tank-bruiser-assassins. The mind just boggles.

The blurring of the lines has led the game to become one ugly mess. ANd this is because it has morphed far beyond the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock analogy to nearly Nth level complexity. And when you add so many tiers of complexity, one cannot be surprised that some champions are becoming grossly imbalanced and so easily...

Leto GTJul 14, 20181 votes

No, it is in fact quite the opposite. Everything is vague now because every role has been standardised into "play your own way" through damage creep. Your "once upon a time" is incorrect for the most part but it's irrelevant in regard to the current state of the game anyway. I've simply pointed out the point which triggered me the most, which is mage definition because mage jobs we're never to kill tanks, at all in League history.

League is a MOBA which is used to be actually complex and the fact that the basic segmentation of roles boggles your mind is problematic because it's not an FPS, not it should be in anyway.