Virtually every game I've won or lost has been dictated by how effective my jungler was.

Theorchero·May 14, 2017·111 votes·4,498 views

Laners just don't have the agency, to carry the game anymore, except bot. Mid might if they are a mobile assassin as they can prey on mages and hopefully snowball the game, but in the presence of a decent jungler that's virtually impossible. Lee, Vi, Sej, Zac, etc. There's so much CC in the game right now (with virtually no tradeoff as those champions with that amount of CC are never penalized in damage, sustain, and rarely mobility) that if a jungle decides to camp you, you're fucked. Not farming isn't an option, and for many champions not pushing the lane isn't an option either.

Junglers have the ability to sit in brush for minutes at a time in order to apply immense pressure, and because of the way the jg monsters spawn and catchup exp, it doesn't matter if they fall a little behind in exp (which is hard to do).

Stop making jungle so powerful that it solely determines who wins.

110 Comments

deadlychuckMay 14, 201717 votes

It's not that jungle determines who wins, it's more that the jungle is full of assassins.

And it's the burst damage assassins or pseudo-assassins (basically any of the skirmishers or divers which are questionably the same class) are the ones which the weight of the game falls on. It's insanely difficult to win a game without one of these champions if the enemy has one.

There are a few exceptions, but they tend to be insanely over tuned champions in their role which very commonly get a massive snowball.

Ben SharpioMay 14, 20172 votes

no, this game is always centered around the better bot lane. This is why if your bot lane is shittier than theirs, you automatically lose the game

Sp33d Zer0May 14, 201712 votes

As an ADC main I can assure you that is false. I have won sooooo many lanes recently where it didn't matter because my top and mid both got absolutely destroyed, and I have had a number of games where I lost the lane, and yet I won because of a snowballed solo laner.

HaIlMonitorMay 14, 20173 votes

Its not the assassin they nerf them usually once they get to a certain power level. It is an adc Graves and All these assassins LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin erm fighters*

TwitchInMyPantsMay 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It's not that jungle determines who wins, it's more that the jungle is full of assassins.

And it's the burst damage assassins or pseudo-assassins (basically any of the skirmishers or divers which are questionably the same class) are the ones which the weight of the game falls on. It's insanely difficult to win a game without one of these champions if the enemy has one.

There are a few exceptions, but they tend to be insanely over tuned champions in their role which very commonly get a massive snowball.

Then why aren't assassins dominating mid where there's more picks for them and they're in a regularly better roaming position with more gold? And that doesn't explain Ivern or Sejuani being able to keel up with Graves/Lee/Kha. I'd argue its these characters being overtuned and jungle objectives making the already easy to push towers turn to glass.

o Eon OMay 15, 20172 votes

Nah, reach plat and you'll completely understand what op is saying. My main elo is high plat low diamond, and every single time I'm smurfing I'm like "Hell yeah, climbing gold with fucking ease. Based on this I should shoot through plat and hit diamond no problem!" and then I hit Plat and remember why I have issues climbing every single time: Junglers and MIA's. The main issues is junglers, the vast majority of games always feel like it's decided by the junglers in this elo. One jungler is always so much more superior to the other it's like an 0/5 jung game against a 5/0/5 jung game. Also another super annoying thing is that people feel like they are too good or something to respect MIA pings. If my laner or another laner roams and I spam ping the lane I am pretty sure the enemy is going to, giving the person a solid 8 seconds to back off and totally waste the enemies roam, my teammate will stay where they are (overextended) or even push half the time. Bronze, Silver and Gold I find respect the danger ping on top of them so well.

deadlychuckMay 16, 20171 votes

Yeah, i wouldn't expect me to spent the time in ranked to get up to plat... maybe gold if the season rewards are worth it. Literally no valuable reason for me to play ranked.

The top tier junglers are these assassin/pseudo-assassin types, there are exceptions, but they are still exceptions. Champions like ivern who have enough ganking power and clearling power that he's on par with the assassins. When these champions get ahead they snowball hard.

cokapooMay 14, 20179 votes

It only seems that way because 95% of solo q players are blind bats so its so easy to gank

Troll for TrumpMay 14, 20173 votes

95% of solo q players play Lee Sin, then?

HaIlMonitorMay 14, 20173 votes

Yes. He is over powered and makes even pros look like garbage.

Source: MSI, LCS, Worlds

Ad Astra per AspMay 14, 20178 votes

They need to revert the catchup exp buff as it is doing 2 very unhealthy things to the game:

Gank Fiesta meta, if you're not a gank jungler it's a lot harder to be effective. And by gank, I mean not even nocturn is good because he has so much power in his level 6. They have to have mobility and cc and burst in their kit to be extremely effective and those are the only ones meta because they are the most effective at the moment. There's only two exceptions Ivern and Nunu, which Ivern has all but the burst and nunu all but the mobility and both excel at counter jungling and Ivern is all sorts of cancer for reasons of his own.
Lanes constantly pressured and smothers certain laners. When the risk:reward ratio to ganking is basically ganking nonstop has no downsides then people will take advantage of that and gank constantly. Laners don't like this, most the jungle champion pool doesn't like this, only a few jungler's like this so it is unhealthy to the game as a whole. When ganking had a definite downside of losing exp and falling behind if your time wasn't well spent (i.e. ganks successful a high % of the time) then it was a lot more balanced the catchup exp ruined that.

Additionally they should give camps more importance other than red/blue. Most the meta junglers can leave krugs untouched till 6+ mins in the game and that's sad.

Karn BishopMay 14, 20173 votes

I can tell you now unless you made it so only farming jungle was optimal all junglers would still skip krugs due to how far out of position it puts you and its not even a good spot to gank from unless your lee with a ward up or vi with Q, ult and flash up.

Though that is not the main point, the main point is the laners cannot live in a world with weak junglers anymore they have lost the skillset needed to survive in a lane with just two people, it used to be that a losing laner could recover in lane yet now that is impossible especially given how fast towers die.

HaIlMonitorMay 14, 20172 votes

Farm jungling was a thing for a lot of seasons but people hated Feral flare, and then devour because they couldn't win lane and got mad when junglers hit a power spike at 20 minutes.

3TWarriorMay 15, 20171 votes

I thought it was because it encouraged turtle teams while everyone waited on the jungler?

HaIlMonitorMay 16, 20171 votes

People played the same in lanes, just they blammed the jungler for losing lane because they didn't get ganks. And the gank junglers would have to do a lot of work because once devour was stacked champs like lee were worthless if he wasn't fed. The power spike was massive though, but it meant the game wasnt won or lost effectively at 3 minutes when bot gets cheese ganked.

ManevrăMay 14, 20175 votes

lol whining noob,every role can carry in their way and every champion is able to carry,and is it that hard for you to farm under your tower?Don't you know how to outplay? dont you know how to counter gank? dont you know how to steal baron/drake/herald?.Everything has a weakness l2p

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 201711 votes

{quoted}

lol whining noob,every role can carry in their way and every champion is able to carry,and is it that hard for you to farm under your tower?Don't you know how to outplay? dont you know how to counter gank? dont you know how to steal baron/drake/herald?.Everything has a weakness l2p

You understand that farming under my tower is not something I get to decide.

I can do it once, then it won't happen again unless the other laner decides to shove.

Freezing before my tower, that is doable. It will last 2-3 waves instead, unless once again I get shoved and given the chance to freeze again.

Either way, unless my match up decides to shove, "playing safe" is not an option. And it doesn't matter because at the current state of the game you get tower dived quite fast into the game.

AirKingNeoMay 14, 201711 votes

"Top lane is a 2v2 lane. The top laners and the junglers."

Always continues to hold true.

LilleMay 14, 20172 votes

maddening when i'm on a team where our junglers camps top lane (who honestly does not need to be camped, like ever) and never comes to bot lane because "it's too hard to gank", so we lose out on drag no matter how many pink wards have been dropped in river... even more upsetting if the first drag is infernal or mountain and/or if the enemy jungler has ganked bot (for exactly this purpose) more than twice...

people are far too interested in getting as many kills as possible, rather than winning the game. that way, when their team loses they can look at their score and place the blame elsewhere. "i was doing the most damage and getting the most kills, idk why we lost".

even if your team is ahead in kills, if you have at least one person dumb enough to be chasing enemies everywhere on the map and end up not pushing/getting objectives the other team WILL catch up in gold and build accordingly and end up winning even if they were originally behind in kills.

so frustrating.

BlueBilberryMay 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"Top lane is a 2v2 lane. The top laners and the junglers."

Always continues to hold true.

The botlane have their adcs and their supports. The top have themselves and the junglers. I like the parallel. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

TEA Nietzsche May 14, 20172 votes

Why can you only freeze for 2-3 waves? I mean sure, at some points you fck the freeze up but then you just wait and zone until you have a giant wave + free back.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=AI Qaida,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2017-05-14T16:44:28.768+0000)

Why can you only freeze for 2-3 waves? I mean sure, at some points you fck the freeze up but then you just wait and zone until you have a giant wave + free back.

I am talking about freezing while you are the one who is at a disadvantage, not other way around.

So you are the one getting zoned after the freezing ends, which is inevitable without further shoving. (aka, the other guy is either stupid or arrogant)

TEA Nietzsche May 14, 20171 votes

When the freeze lock rips you have more minions than your opponent and if you still get zoned then.. You either fucked up before or have a scaling champ which means that you have to expect to get behind.

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=AI Qaida,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T16:55:12.666+0000)

When the freeze lock rips you have more minions than your opponent and if you still get zoned then.. You either fucked up before or have a scaling champ which means that you have to expect to get behind.

Neither of those points has anything to do with how a freeze is handled when you are not the dominant side.

Fact is, it's not permanent and only a measure to give your jungler some time to come. If he doesn't...well good luck after the equilibrium swings back.

I don't understand you "you must have fucked up before so now you deserve to lose everything and forever" type of guys to be fair, but each to their own.

I mean, you are only proving the OP with such a statement. Since what you're saying is that in that case someone deserves to be in a situation where only their junglers can provide any sliver of hope to their lane.

TEA Nietzsche May 14, 20171 votes

I don't understand you "you must have fucked up before so now you deserve to lose everything and forever" type of guys to be fair, but each to their own.

Wrong context, this is the context:

Stop making jungle so powerful that it solely determines who wins.

And I argue that this is clearly not true.

Neither of those points has anything to do with how a freeze is handled when you are not the dominant side.

Sure, if you fucked up you have to rely on your opponents making a mistake (by shoving or dying to your roam) but if you fuck up and stay in lane and your opponents jungler is also good and your opponent doesn't make a mistake.. Why would you deserve to win?

I really don't get why everyone expects handouts, in all these hypothetical scenarios your junglers is apparantly doing nothing, you fucked up in the beginning and their laner is stronger, their jungler is up your ass and somehow you deserve a 24/7 safe freeze until minute 40. How is this even supposed to work?

Fed by Snu SnuMay 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=AI Qaida,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=0000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T17:24:13.598+0000)

Wrong context, this is the context:

And I argue that this is clearly not true.

Sure, if you fucked up you have to rely on your opponents making a mistake (by shoving or dying to your roam) but if you fuck up and stay in lane and your opponents jungler is also good and your opponent doesn't make a mistake.. Why would you deserve to win?

I really don't get why everyone expects handouts, in all these hypothetical scenarios your junglers is apparantly doing nothing, you fucked up in the beginning and their laner is stronger, their jungler is up your ass and somehow you deserve a 24/7 safe freeze until minute 40. How is this even supposed to work?

What if my "fuck up" is that I actually avoided ganks, which gave enough room to be denied a few cs and be just half an item behind? Add in some first tower gold (stupidest idea ever) from bottom and we're set for disaster.

That's enough a reason to lose a lane nowadays. You can't fight them and you keep on trying to keep a grip. This eventually reaches a point where they can just dive you. And they do. And that's the final nail.

So their advantage was exactly because of their jungler. Doesn't have to be an actual kill to prove that junglers decide the lane too hard.

The problem is that the majority of skirmish scenarios nowadays are decided based on the slightest of numerical advantages.

TEA Nietzsche May 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=00000001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T17:28:47.163+0000)

What if my "fuck up" is that I actually avoided ganks, which gave enough room to be denied a few cs and be just half an item behind? Add in some first tower gold (stupidest idea ever) from bottom and we're set for disaster.

Ok, so if you avoided ganks you managed to waste their junglers time - which is great. As we established junglers have the potential to be tremendously impactful, so your jungler should be more impactful than theirs when you played beatifully around their jungler.

That means that if we assume that you are the toplaner your jungler should have set mid/bot ahead and maybe even done a drake. But if your botlane manage to lose despite their jungler ganking top then something went wrong on the side of your team. Your team could basically 4v3 and still lost - too bad. Once you realize that it's a team game and you can't win every game by being better than your opponent you will stop being frustrated about bad teammates. Because if you manage to waste their junglers time without him getting any gold/xp out of you you will end up winning 60% of your games simply because your bottom half of the map will end up snowballing.

So their advantage was exactly because of their jungler. Doesn't have to be an actual kill to prove that junglers decide the lane too hard. The problem is that the majority of skirmish scenarios nowadays are decided based on the slightest of numerical advantages.

This isn't the case - atleast not at my level of play. No clue how things are like at Challenger level though.

Elkington VIMay 14, 20175 votes

I don't think the jungle is that powerful honestly. It's just that the game is so snowbally and in favor of early game stompers. Look at the champions that dominate in the jungle. They're all champions that thrive on early leads. Making the jungle weaker would just strengthen these kind of champions. If anything, the jungle should be made stronger and less forgiving, so that these champions actually have to make tradeoffs for constantly ganking. Lee Sin is just a monster in the jungle no matter what and it seems Riot wants him to stay that way. Nerfing Cinderhulk isn't going to affect him at all and I'm not sure why they did it.

Riot tried making the jungle weaker in seasons long past and all it did was strengthen fast clearing/strong ganking champions, while making any other kind of jungler near useless in comparison. If you want ganking junglers to have less power, then the jungle has to pose a reasonable threat to them.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 14, 20173 votes

Junglers have the ability to sit in brush for minutes at a time in order to apply immense pressure, and because of the way the jg monsters spawn and catchup exp, it doesn't matter if they fall a little behind in exp (which is hard to do).

Its not true. Jungler will most of the time be behind in xp, not a little like

Laners just don't have the agency, to carry the game anymore, except bot.

Can u explain this ? I dont agree, Mid is the best role to carry.

Mid might if they are a mobile assassin as they can prey on mages and hopefully snowbally the game, but in the presence of a decent jungler that's virtually impossible.

Assassins aren't a good choice with item 3812 item 3026

Stop making jungle so powerful that it solely determines who wins.

lmao, they nerfed the jungle enough already. Except Godtiers champ the role is weak atm.

Asayake 5150glowMay 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-05-14T12:03:50.652+0000) Assassins aren't a good choice with

Thing is, Assassins love those items.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 14, 20171 votes

No, due to these items, its hard (near impossible) to OS carry. Assassins are usualy caster, adc have sustained damage.

Asayake 5150glowMay 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T19:55:46.728+0000)

No, due to these items, its hard (near impossible) to OS carry. Assassins are usualy caster, adc have sustained damage.

ADC's aren't gonna buy those items until their third or fourth item, that is, the Crit ADC's + Ezreal.

On the other hand, DD is a great second item for a Kha'Zix, and GA is a nice third.

Dream HighMay 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-05-14T12:03:50.652+0000)

Its not true. Jungler will most of the time be behind in xp, not a little like

Can u explain this ? I dont agree, Mid is the best role to carry.

Assassins aren't a good choice with

lmao, they nerfed the jungle enough already. Except Godtiers champ the role is weak atm.

Lol at junglers being behind in exp, catch up exp is a thing that's why aggressive junglers like Lee Sin and Elise can just gank and stay at the same level as solo laners.

SeenanMay 14, 20173 votes

Hah. Tell that to my toplaner that feeds the Fiora or whoever every game, then yells at me for 'not doing anything' as Amumu. Sorry that Fiora can absolutely delete me.

Just Blame JennyMay 14, 20173 votes

Hoo boy, one of these.

Yes, it's true that the jungler has a lot of influence on the game. So does top. So does mid. So does ADC. So does support. Which one has the most influence? It could well be the jungler, sure. However, to say that the jungler is the sole arbiter of the game (or anywhere close) is gross hyperbole.

You'll find players with a 70%+ win rate in any role. Not just jungle. Any role. This doesn't happen entirely by happenstance. Any role can carry.

GULAG 4 UMay 14, 20172 votes

I mean, the point of the jungle is to ambush lanes using the lack of vision as an edge. It's not too surprising.

skyskee008May 14, 20172 votes

Lol. Then play jungle. I assure you right now the ADC decides the game.

Yes the jungler can swing lanes, but an ADC that can't position can lose the game a lot harder. Junglers lost a lot of agency. They are often down in gold and levels to laners, often the same level as the adc if not less - as melee champs. You either get your lanes ahead or you lose, you no longer get enough from the JG to carry or 1v1 anyone.

Also junglers can't sit in a brush for 2 minutes without sacrificing a lot. Sitting in your brush for 2 min doesn't make them a good jungler lol, makes them a shitty one. If you manage to lose the game cause of it then that's on you - their jungler is brainless for doing that. 2 minutes is a ridiculous amount of time during lane phase. The second he leaves your laner will be down in XP too.

AirKingNeoMay 14, 20172 votes

Nope, ADC does not dictate the game at all until you hit 25+ minutes or unless its Lucian or Draven.

Hence why you want to gank top first thing in a game, to swing the most snowballing lane in your favor.

skyskee008May 17, 20171 votes

Situation: You gank for top lane and they win lane and get first tower

Now, what can they do. Unless they can DIVE the mid laner not really much. They could always TP bot lane to swing fights, and maybe a full fiesta for drake might get you more ahead in a 4v4 or 5v5.

HOWEVER, if the enemy team plays smart, the top laner can't do much unless he has the ability to go around diving lanes as he pleases. Bot laners however - when unlocked, can run around in every lane taking towers because they always have 1 high DPS ranged champion and OFTEN 2 ranged champions. They siege down towers and make the gold lead insurmountable. Thats why getting bot lane tower early is so important.

ArcyyyMay 14, 20172 votes

Zac

Decent Jungler

You've lost all credibility.

SkorchMay 14, 20172 votes

I mean an effective jungler IS effective. If they know how to balance objectives with ganking, and by themselves win most lanes. YEAH he's gonna win.

But you can also say that about ANYONE who plays around more than just their lane, as you said mid assassins. They typically roam to help other lanes.

Its just its the junglers JOB to play around things that benefit more than just them. So yeah they are gonna be very influential if they know what theyre doing.

mrgiraffeweevilMay 15, 20172 votes

I'd say this is one result of shorter games. Because games are shorter and are far more snowbally, the game never has a chance to stablize. The team that gets ahead will win most of the time. The jungler is the player I would say has the most potential for making a lane snowball, and since the game cares more about snowballs, the team with the better jungler wins.

BananaSlayerAMOMay 14, 20171 votes

I think people underestimate the amount of decision-making skills and map awareness it takes to be a good jungler. For example, it's important to predict where the enemy team (especially their jungler) will be in the future and path yourself to the optimal position.

Just camping in lane is not some OP strat. It can easily turn into a huge waste of time if opponents even suspect what you're doing. This is why we don't see much of this in higher tiers or pro games.

I acknowledge that junglers can snowball much harder in solo queue or lower elos, as laners are less coordinated with each other and more susceptible to ganks. However, I think we all know how Riot balances the game around pro play (but that's an issue for another time).

TheorcheroMay 14, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I think people underestimate the amount of decision-making skills and map awareness needed to be a good jungler. For example, it's important to predict where the enemy team (especially their jungler) will be in the future and path yourself to the optimal position.

Just camping in lane is not some OP strat. It can easily turn into a huge waste of time if opponents even suspect what you're doing. This is why you don't see much of this in higher tiers or pro games.

I acknowledge that junglers can snowball much harder in solo queue or lower elos, as laners are less coordinated with each other and more susceptible to ganks. However, I think we all know how Riot balances the game around pro play (but that's an issue for another time).

Absolutely, but it doesn't change that the more effective jungler will generally win the game. The role is just so effective. Sitting in a bush may not be as effective, but you can blow their flash, farm a camp, then come back for the next 5 minutes and make their life miserable.

XIII VanitasMay 15, 20171 votes

Jungle is so determinant that most players in the top 10 NA challenger ladder are either adc or mid lane mains.

TheorcheroMay 15, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=RUCK FICKY,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2017-05-15T14:45:30.232+0000)

Jungle is so determinant that most players in the top 10 NA challenger ladder are either adc or mid lane mains.

No. I just looked it up here and I counted 3 jg and top and 2 of the rest.

Laxfan52May 15, 20171 votes

Good job for adding a source

TheorcheroMay 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Good job for adding a source

Thanks, Dad.

XIII VanitasMay 15, 20171 votes

I used this. https://na.op.gg/ranking/ladder/

Still hasn't changed since 7 hours ago.

BlueBilberryMay 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=RUCK FICKY,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EApa45Vn,comment-id=002e,timestamp=2017-05-15T14:45:30.232+0000)

Jungle is so determinant that most players in the top 10 NA challenger ladder are either adc or mid lane mains.

Just did a check on League of Graphs and Lolalytics to check your theory - using jungle mains as the key criterion for my check. Worldwide, from region to region, generally 30% to 40% of the top players are in fact jungle mains. (A little while ago, they were up to 60% of the top players (!) - but it is notable that the number of junglers in the top 10 is down since I last looked at this.)

As I write this, North America has 3 out of the top 10 as jungle mains with midlaners, adcs, support mains and adcs following in that order. Korea is a bit of an anomaly - this region has only 1 out of the 10 currently being a jungle main (in fact, most of their top 10 seems to be split between top and mid mains).