You know, the funny thing is, every time we have a class update...

Melledoneus·May 11, 2017·78 votes·3,925 views

Damage creep gets worse and a certain class benefits.

ADC rework made ADCs strong and tanks weaker.

Mage update made some mages trash and others braindead-easy to get kills with, and also made ADCs stronger.

The Assassin update made the one class in the game dedicated to killing ADCs worse at doing their job, and gave broken itemization for ADCs to use, making ADCs stronger.

And now the tank update has nerfed tanks overall and gave ADs new tools to keep dominating.

We should just call all these 'updates' the "ADC buffs," because that's all I see here.

Oh, and in case you weren't aware, cancerous pieces of shit like Fiora are on my list for AD carries, so keep that in mind.

Can't wait for our diver update, when ADCs get an item that gives them a permanent Poppy's W or some shit.

148 Comments

Big LincolnMay 11, 201738 votes

counterplay is important but only for champs that aren't ranged and dont rightclick

MelledoneusMay 11, 201719 votes

We used to be able to counterbuild. Now we don't even have that anymore.

ThefrostyvikingMay 12, 201713 votes

{quoted}

We used to be able to counterbuild. Now we don't even have that anymore.

Ya know....it seems awfully biased?

I won't mind if you go bashing Fiora for having a passive&ulti that deals % max hp true damage that scales of AD.

But the life of a actual marks man/woman is not easy ya know?

Bullied by supports, reliant on supports, needing more gold than any other class and also targeted more than any other. Also the most useless when behind.

And at the moment if a single marksman get's OP (recent and current ones Jhin & Lucian ) people will immediately flame the hell outa marksmen mains and tell us we suck for we play an OP class ._.

Completely ignoring any and all difficulties of the botlane, you tanks and bruisers seem to think it's a literal paradise down there?

ADC buffs? Are you even aware? Sometime ago Riot raised the bonus pen on last whisper by 15% a literally massive buff. Which means the words of adc's being helped contained a truth....but overlooking the reasons for it.

Because any and all armor users were dumpstering marksmen, a diver with 1 damage item and 1 tank item could 1v2 most AD users at the time.

A tank with 2-3 armor items could stand still and watch and a marksman die from thornmail.

Then last whisper made it better but it was far from easy, however snowballing AD champs in general, especially Assassins became OP with it.

So to help marksmen who still were failing more often than not that insane botrk buff came through.

And last whisper was nerfed.

What did you tanks register?

"OMG MARKSMEN OP, HEALING FOR TONS AND KILLING US IN 1 SEC, RIOT NERF DAT SHIT" '

That´s about the summary of the tanks complaining about marksmen, our items cost on average 600-700 gold more, we need serveral together to get much effectiveness out of them and a single mistake can cost us our lane or a teamfight. That is a marksmen.

oh and we lost out most 1v1's against supports too.

Get your shit together. You state that Marksmen were improved like it was Riot acting like a bunch of sugar daddies for the role? Deliberately ignoring the fact that all those buffs were meant to just push Marksmen into being frigging viable after having been trash?

I won't accept any claim that the "ADC in 2k17" meme didn't exist ._. It was hella real and it was frigging miserable. To the point where people played mages bot because they did the marksmen's job better then the marksmen themselves....and you claim that there has been a show of favoritism?

Bullshit, utter and pure bullshit.

I am open for discussion but please do choose your words, sugarcoating things and making the botlane look like a paradise will do nothing but provoke the hell outa myself and others who stuck down botlane ever since the mage update and until now.

LyndrisMay 12, 20171 votes

Clap clap clap(real). As a none marksmen player i can agree with this. Being a mageport main (lux sona, and lots o syndra(mid)) i know that one misstep and i can give my team an adc on a goddamn silver platter. This doesn't mean a 2-3(with greaves) isn't a nightmare when properly played/peeled for, this goes alot less for syndra though cause i can just Q spam the front line land a W on the adc then R them out of the fight [slayer-jinx-wink]

ThefrostyvikingMay 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Vlix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8lWHiLn,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-12T18:07:19.310+0000)

Clap clap clap(real). As a none marksmen player i can agree with this. Being a mageport main (lux sona, and lots o syndra(mid)) i know that one misstep and i can give my team an adc on a goddamn silver platter. This doesn't mean a 2-3(with greaves) isn't a nightmare when properly played/peeled for, this goes alot less for syndra though cause i can just Q spam the front line land a W on the adc then R them out of the fight [slayer-jinx-wink]

Well thank you for the acknowledgement x)

I honestly understand when tanks feel frustrated when some ADC's and their supports play so well that they're nigh impossible to catch.

And how insanely hard ADC's snowball as well.

But it frustrates me that the tanks degrade ADC's by saying "no skill only rightclicks" or easiest most braindead class.

Or when they act like ADC are Riot's favorites on a golden pedestal showered with flowers and glory and buffed constantly just because.

As if it's not the most punishing role to lose lane with, as if it's the most important not to misstep with as well as one that must always be extremely careful with their builds and always pay attention to the enemy team to not be useless or die instantly.

Not to mention how few ADC's are actually even decent against tanks x)

LyndrisMay 12, 20172 votes

TBH, they are the golden class, not because of riot but due to the community and the meta (ugh hate that acronym). This isn't to say they are unstoppable, broken or what evs, just on a pedestal.

CyberBaltMay 12, 20174 votes

Deliberately ignoring the fact that all those buffs were meant to just push Marksmen into being frigging viable after having been trash?

No, being a mandatory pick every single game is not what I call trash.

ThefrostyvikingMay 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, being a mandatory pick every single game is not what I call trash.

How can someone be mandatory when replaced with mages? Because that happened.

And every single ADC at the time except Jhin and varus as well as cait were under 8% playrate.

And among the lowest winrates as well.

And it never quite stopped. even now mages appear from time to time and the rare the mordekaiser mains have a good winrate bot? x)

VoraciousXMay 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

How can someone be mandatory when replaced with mages? Because that happened.

And every single ADC at the time except Jhin and varus as well as cait were under 8% playrate.

And among the lowest winrates as well.

And it never quite stopped. even now mages appear from time to time and the rare the mordekaiser mains have a good winrate bot? x)

You realize that Riot reworked Mordekaiser TO BE A BOT LANER, right? They wanted to preserve his top lane possibility, but they designed him to be more for bot lane now, that's why he gains the same exp regardless if he has a support or not, that's why his shield works better on an actual champion, and that's why he gets a dragon ghost if he kills dragon....

As for being "replaced by mages". They haven't been REPLACED. Mages found a home in bot lane as well, primarily Ziggs because he's a tower pusher, which is what ADCs are for. They found a home ALONGSIDE ADCs, they didn't REPLACE them. There's a difference.

CyberBaltMay 12, 20174 votes

If you're referring to the Ziggs bot lane stuff, that lasted for about a month. Then it died. As for how much individual adcs are played, I don't think it matters. The only thing I know is that ADCs are played every game, except for that tiny break when Ziggs bot was a thing.

The next closest class to being mandatory in every team is tanks, but even they don't show up as often as ADCs. It's not that uncommon to see someone squishy (Jayce, Gangplank, Kennen) in top and an assassin in jungle, leaving the team with no tank. However it's EXTREMELY uncommon to see a team without an adc. The rare cases you mentioned are just that -- rare. Much rarer than every other role having an offmeta pick.

Understand, I'm not saying that playing an adc isn't frustrating, or that it's easy, etc. I'm simply disagreeing about them being weak. There is no way a class that's played in every game across every elo is bad.

FrightningMay 15, 20171 votes

^This guy is right on the money, the ADC archetype is actually pretty strong right now, too strong imo (I play all the roles and like playing ADC a lot, even back when the role was much weaker than it is now, so don't come at me with any claims of class favoritism on my part). It hasn't been as good as it has been starting w/ season 6 since back in season 1, and back then it took 35+mins to get there (games used to go 45+mins if they were actually long games, instead of >35mins being considered long). Since the season 6 markman changes, they've been so much stronger, at every stage of the game. ADCs with escapes actually counter much of the usual top lane meta picks, and that opens up bot lane to running abusive duos involving a non-ADC champion farming the lane there, but I don't see many people doing so yet (probably because it requires 2 people to go off-meta for their positions).

Pentium2May 13, 20172 votes

Finally someone with a brain.

I bet everyone who claims such nonsense as the OP of the thread, never played a single game as an adc, or who knows maybe they should all main adc and be challanger.

Volibear BossMay 12, 201714 votes

This is because ADCs cry since years, while other roles are fine with the game how it is.

Builds no LS or BC and complains that he deals no dmg to the 500 armor Malphite, builds no defensive stats and complains that he gets oneshot,

Warlord ScrapMay 11, 201713 votes

Fiora legitamately is an adc. Adc doesnt mean ranged bot lane. It also doenst mean a class. Its a build time thats full glass canon ad. Apc being the ap equivalent.
Fiora along with certain other champs yas and tryn being examples are skirmishers the melee adc class

Volibear BossMay 12, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Its a build time thats full glass canon ad.

The problem with Fiora is, she isnt even squishy and deals more dmg than a ADC, she kills tanks so fcking fast. And cause of all that heal i cant even scratch her as tank anymore after she got her second item.

chipndip1May 12, 20171 votes

Fiora IS squishy...the fuck?

TimX24968BMay 12, 20172 votes

when she doesn't build anything defensive she is.

chipndip1May 12, 20174 votes

That's like saying marksmen aren't squishy when they build tank. Like no shit..., but outside of that she's generally squish.

MelledoneusMay 12, 20174 votes

Wrong. Base stats and inherent defensive capabilities determine what is tanky.

A Varus building tank has low base stats and no defensive mechanics, so tank stats are not as effective.

Fiora has sustain and her W to back up her HP and negate the effects of damage. Additionally, she has much better base stats, on par with some bruisers.

Fiora without tank items is squishy by stats but let's not pretend that a Fiora and a Twitch building tanky is even remotely the same.

chipndip1May 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wrong. Base stats and inherent defensive capabilities determine what is tanky.

SO FIORA ISN'T TANKY.

A Varus building tank has low base stats and no defensive mechanics, so tank stats are not as effective.

SO FIORA ISN'T TANKY (also defensive mechanics don't make a tank + Varus has ult for defense).

Fiora has sustain and her W to back up her HP and negate the effects of damage. Additionally, she has much better base stats, on par with some bruisers.

DOESN'T MEAN SHE'S TANKY. She has middle ground armor/mr stats and the health stat of Jhin by level 18 while fighting close up all game.

Fiora without tank items is squishy by stats but let's not pretend that a Fiora and a Twitch building tanky is even remotely the same.

What is with these shit comparisons?

MelledoneusMay 12, 20172 votes

I can literally put any champion in Fiora's place, give them a glass cannon build, and say they are not tanky.

No champion save for a few are naturally tanky.

RengoooMay 12, 20179 votes

Pretty sure adc's are better at assassinating other adc's than actual assassins themselves are :/

The WhamboozlerMay 12, 20175 votes

Someone doesn't remember the "adc in 2017" meme, apparently. They were pretty trash for a while and ZIGGS made a better bot laner. Now I'm not saying that the game as now is balanced or well put together... or that adc's are in a good state. But stop with this "OMG, things have always been lousy for everyone but adc's! OMG, RIOT BIAS!". Wild, biased shit like that is what makes people disregard actual criticisms as the ravings of an uninformed person or just someone who is biased as all hell.

Ok... now try again, but this time post your protests like a sane and rational person.

Warlord ScrapMay 12, 201711 votes

That was for like a month and then they buffed lethality.

The WhamboozlerMay 12, 20171 votes

The point is, it did happen.

MelledoneusMay 12, 20174 votes

So one month completely overshadows 7 years of this bullshit. Good to know.

MelledoneusMay 12, 201716 votes

"ADC in 2k17" was about how ADCs were getting blown up due to the damage creep in the game, which was a direct consequence of tanks not being good and thus not being picked to be their meatshields. Now that they can rush an item that lets them both deal damage and defy death, who needs tanks?

The WhamboozlerMay 12, 20171 votes

Gloriously, you have missed the point and are still just raging on about the "OMG ADC's" thing.

Ironically, this kinda PROVES my point.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20174 votes

Ok... now try again, but this time post your protests like a sane and rational person.

Gloriously, you have missed the point and are still just raging on about the "OMG ADC's" thing.

You know, funnily enough he managed to express his opinion without having to insult others, use memes, or bitch and complain with no foundation to his frustrations. I'd like to see this part where he "raged on" about it, rather than merely disagree with you...

MelledoneusMay 12, 20174 votes

You are doing the Lobster Lord's work, my friend.

DrCyanideMay 12, 20177 votes

We've had a grand total of two times when a non-marksman has been the bot lane carry: Morde right after the Juggernaut update and Ziggs after his changes in the Mage update. I'm not sure I'd consider a class "weak" when only one champion at a time is even allowed to set foot into "their lane".

Dextix LTMay 12, 20175 votes

Yea, it was a MEME, people made fun of others who said that adc was trash. ADC WAS NEVER TRASH! Ziggz was a "good" bot laner because of his tower destruction potential.

I really laugh every time someone says that adc's are weak. Dude, adc has been the SINGLE ONE IN GAME CLASS THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PLAYED. Wwhat other class has been MANDATORY?

The adc's were not weak, they were average, like they should be.

The WhamboozlerMay 12, 20171 votes

Except I didn't say "adc's are weak". At all. I said for a short while, way back when... they were struggling. What I essentially said was "People need to stop with the whole circlejerk bullshit of "Riot is biased, adc overlords have always ruled us!" and make sane points and criticisms. Hell, I AGREED that they were overtuned now and that the new items put them out of line.

But instead of reading my words and seeing my point... a bunch of people instead saw that I wasn't just typing "I agree, adc are riot's chosen god-beings" and rushed in to downvote and respond to me with their bile and their hate. This PROVES MY POINT that circlejerking is too big a problem. Do you think Riot takes any input from people who react like that? Do you think it accomplishes anything?

If all you care about is posting an impassioned, angry post and jerking off to how many other people upvote you and agree, great on you. But if you think there's a problem with the game and want to make a freaking point about it, talk about it or dare I say, get Riot to hear you... all I said was that you should express those opinions in a less stupid way, and avoid jumping onto wild accusations and false statements. I am asking for a discussion of the problem instead of what people are doing... which is essentially over-exaggerated clickbait.

But please. Downvote me and rage at me some more... a guy who probably AGREES with you that this is a problem. You're proving my point something fierce and showing Riot that rational discussions of problems aren't a think... just slander, blame, flame-wars and overblown, exaggerated, often blatantly FALSE statements.

Dextix LTMay 12, 20174 votes

They were not strugling. They were balanced for once. When a mage or an assasin can burst down an adc easily, that is balance, because that is their job as burst champions. Yet they struggle with it besides a few exceptions. You want people to stop saying what they think and SEE is happening?

Please, by all means, can you tell me any other reason why any time the class of adc's is in a balanced state they are buffed to high heavens? Can you tell me any other reason why they are the only MANDATORY class of champions in the game? If Riot wanted to fix the role, they would, but for this entire time, it has not happened. Hell, look at situation with BORK, it was nerfed MULTIPLE times before, because of how strong it was and how some champions could abuse it. Yet it was buffed AGAIN now, and yet AGAIN we have adc's dominating. May i ask why was the same action taken as before? Why was an inbalanced item brought back to the front?

What is left is two options. Either we are dealing with insanity and incompetency (Dong the same thing epecting different results is insanity) or favoritism. And looking at how Riot treats some champions (LEE) and how they pushed DQ Favoritism is a likely possibility, because we know that Riot HAS favorites and is ready to defend them.

Adc's being a mandatory class for almost the entire existance of this game IS critisism and it IS disregarded.

What point did YOU have? That adc's were balanced at one point and that a shitty meme sprung up? That everyone is circle jerking and by god it is impposible that people have reached consensus on something? Do YOU think your post accoplishes anything?

People are TIRED of being ignored. There have been THOUSANDS of full essay size posts about adc's, their problems and how to fix them. Were any of them regarded? Looking at the current situation, no.

People TRY to have discussions, but it is hard when Riot IGNORES you the entire time. What is left to the boards then huh? When discussions are ignored and the only Rioters posting are either jokers or memers?

People have a limit of patience.

But please, by all means, regard us all as raging circlejerking idiots who have no idea about what is happening and dont remember what happened before. By all means, treat us as Riot haters that cant have a rational discussion despite trying MULTIPLE TIMES to have it, just to be ignored.

By all means, keep thinking that anyone cares about upvotes-downvotes and that it is a viable argument. By all means keep telling the people who have played for 3+ seasons that they know nothing at all about what happened before and jump to wild accusations instead of making an assumption on currrent behaviours while looking at the older ones.

By all means, go on.

The WhamboozlerMay 12, 20171 votes

You're projecting something fierce here. I'm not Riot. And if you think earnestly that this entire thread isn't a circlejerk rage thread, well... that's just a difference of opinion I suppose.

What I said was... "enough with the rage, offer solutions". How would YOU balance out adcs? Why do you think they're essential? I don't. I think Riot has actually put out more and more things of late to make adc's less essential, actually. I think the only reason they're still in every game is that a few of them are always kinda broken overall (Lucian ATM) and that people don't shift the meta. Ever. People report you for shifting the meta. I'll gladly play Ziggs bot. Or Viktor. Or double bruiser. Or double mage. And what happens in those games isn't that the overpowered adcs destroy me and I lament my life choices. Sometimes we lose, sometimes we win. What DOES happen pretty often however, is my own team tilts of the face of the earth at the picks and makes the game VERY hard to win. Junglers that refuse to gank. Top laners that won't TP gank or just plain people who will troll or int feed because they've decided that I'M trolling because I didn't pick an adc for bot lane.

I urge you to try it. You can do very well with many non-adc bot laners... mages especially, since they're usually able to out-range the enemy lane and push them under tower. Anyone who can build a lichbane and use it well makes a decent pusher too. Is it foolproof? No. But it can work just fine. Riot isn't forcing us to play adc bots... the community is.

But I'm sure you disagree. Or you'll hit me with a "that shit only works in low elo" or something of the like. Maybe. I'm also pretty sure that most of us are IN low elo. I know that 90% of the boards will insist it's all D3 or higher... but if that's the case... the game isn't all about you. You are a tiny percent of the people playing the game. If only the meta is viable when you get to masters or higher... big fuckin' deal. Most of us aren't master, and I've stomped many a game as brand bot with annie support.

That rant aside though... What is your solution to the adc problem? You seem to think it IS a huge issue and that Riot is biased towards making adc's always OP. So putting aside the "then why waste your time?" argument... what would you do to fix it? Offer advice, not just whining and conspiracy theories. Unless of course, you ARE just bitching to hear yourself bitch and see other people validate you with their upvotes and posts of them bitching as well. We have a name for that... and it is called a circlejerk. Offer something or you're contributing nothing... well aside from rage that is.

And FYI, I've been playing longer than 3 seasons, so.... while I fail to see how that matters in the SLIGHTEST to what we're talking about, if you're going on about how your wealth of experience makes you better able to see or make a point than me, you're wrong and I outrank you.... which makes me right by default under your crazy moon logic.

Dextix LTMay 13, 20172 votes

Ah how i missed this kind of idiocy when i argued against DQ. Let me tell you a story boy. Once upon a time SQ was deleted in favor of SQ, people wrote a lot of threads that were detailed and even had a lot of basis in statistical data. They were promised that SQ was going to be back soon. A month passed, the threads still kept appearing, but SQ was nowhere in sight. Then 3 months passed, and some new threads appeared, these threads were less detailed, they were straight up saying what people agreed with, "Where is SQ and why did you lie?". Both types of threads appeared side by side for 6 months or so.

At the same time, you had Riot defenders. They argued to high heavens that Riot NEVER lied and that they would NEVER do such a thing, in everry detailed thread they were being shut down by logic and lost every argument. So what did they do? They chose to go to the second type of thread, to the less detailed ones. Then in an "argument" that every losing side uses, they started strawmanning everyone, using those less detailed threads that were caused by lack of patience and by being ignored for half a year and being lied to, as "Examples" of how SQ people had no arguments and all of them are blind haters.

You also had childdren who did the same thing as you did. "Give us an argument!!!!!" "WHAT WOULD YOU DO, HUH?" "CIRCLEJERK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and every time they said that i could just link them to many detailed threads about the problems with DQ. You are mirroring this situation perfectly.

Now lets get to the other part of the comment.

This is NOT a circlejerk thread, unless every thread that has consensus and you disagree with is a circlejerk thread, because then you have problems pal.

Meta exists for a reason, it exists because its the most effective way to reach victory. It is actually funny how you state that people will report you for going offmeta and shifting it when in the SAME SENTENCE you talk about players playing ZIGGZ bot. Don't you see how funny that is? Meta shifts to what is effective. If it would be more effective to play double mage bot, people would do it, but it is not effective. It might work in cerrtain situations, and that is why you can see some weird picks in pro play, but the meta is still the most effective.

Double mage bot will work to an extent, but in the end it wont beat an equaly skilled adc/support bot. Neither will two bruisers. Riot IS forcing us to play in a certain way, because they are the ones making certain classes and champions effective in certain roles. Look at Dota if you want to see a company that is NOT forcing you to play in a certain way.

Already adressed your idiotic circlejerk comment in the upper part, so how would i fix the class?

GO to the roots of the problem. Adc's not losing anything meaningful for having range and being all over the place with their items and viabilities.

I use dota as my example here. There are melle adcs and other champioons that are viable as double laners in dota. An adc is not mandatory because it is not always the most effective. Why? Because ranged champions lose something for having range, and most importantly, late-game carriese are complete shit early and gods in late, it is how they should operate and be balanced around. In LOL however this is different. Ranged champions lose nothing meaningfull for having range and instead of being weak early and only lategame carries, they are not weak early (Compared to dota) but are still gods late, this does not allow anyone else to go bot besides an adc, and allows adcs to go top and destroy anyone playing there.

Look at the modern melle ad carries that we had that were supposed to go bot to fight with adc's. Yasuo and Mordekaiser. Want to hear what unites them? Just to have a CHANCE at fighting ranged adc's they had to be made completely overloaded and in some cases broken. That ALONE shows how dominant the role of adc's in this game is, if there is no viable way to make a melle adc to contest with them on lane, there is a problem. In dota, i can easily take a melle champion and lane versus ranged with no problems, because it is balanced in a way that it is viable.

Itemization is also a problem. While i think mages are not in a bad spot, let us face it, their itemization when compared to ad itemzation is SHITE. Ad itemizations have a lot of choices and items for any situation needed. In my opinion the biggest problem here is that Riot removed the lessesned item effects for ranged adc's, which makes them overbearing with certain items. Currently BORK was buffed, and guess what, its broken again (For a thrid time i think now?) and champs like Lucian are clearly abusing BC. BORK in itself has to get reworked or deleted,because as an item it simply is badly designed and just like a broken champion it has to be either kept unusable or in op state.

But that is nnot the biggest itemization problem.

The biggest itemization nightmares are deaths dance, phantom dancer and maw of martimorius. Andthe recently added GA with offensive stats. Why is it an itemization nightmare? Because it RUINS the class counter dynamic. Adc's are supposed to be WEAK to burst damage, if assasin or a mage gets to them, they should die unless they manage to dodge their skills. These items however stop that from happening and the weakness from burst damage disappears. This ruins the class dynamic in a huge way and makes the class unbalanced. When you can buy items to cover for your weaknesses and remove them, that is a huge problem in LOL.

The entire class needs work, but by all means ignore anything you see and treat this as circlejerk just like people did when they argued for DQ.

The WhamboozlerMay 14, 20171 votes

Ok. While your post was condescending as all shit, I got nothing else going on, so let's do this.

I'm not new, dude. I ALSO raged at DQ and the many ways it made ranked into a shitfest of premades stomping everyone and people blatantly carrying their "friends" to higher ranks. DQ has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about either. You just brought it up to crow about being around for a while and "omg, I've seen some shit kid, you don't even know". You haven't. You don't outrank me, son. I remember the terror of release Xin Zhao. I remember league of cleavers. I remember relic shields on EVERYONE. Tell me again about what it was like "back in your day" like I just starting playing this week. It's cute.

Secondly... you have STILL not done the only thing I asked for repeatedly. Offer a fucking solution. Funny how you responded smugly to my entire post (I mean, kinda... mostly you just assumed your opinions were more valid and talked downt to me), but you somehow missed the MULTIPLE times I said... what is your solution? What would you change? What do you think would make things balanced.

Fuck, man. I even said... SEVERAL times... that I agree that adc's ARE out of balance right now. All I said is "Stop making posts complaining unless you're going to offer a solution". I consider ALL posts where someone rages about something without suggesting a fix or a way they'd make it better to be rage posts. And when other people ALSO jump in to rage and they too offer no solutions or input beyond "You're right man, X is OP/broken/unbalanced/overloaded/stupid", it has become a circlejerk. It's just a bunch of ragers fluffing each other's rage-boners and not a single positive thought came of it.

So I will say to you... ONE more time. WHAT. IS. YOUR. SOLUTION? You think adc are broken? Great. If you really believe this is an elaborate conspiracy, wouldn't that mean that you are wasting your time whining about it? If riot doesn't WANT to make adcs anything other than gods... you have NO HOPE of changing their minds. But if you're posting in the hopes of getting a red to read your post and maybe say "Oh man, this guy is right" and juuuuust maybe to consider your words when they produce the next patch or something... maybe offer some fucking suggestions or ideas. Give them more than just "OMG, they're broken and riot wants them to be!". If you're right, your complaints are pointless, and if you're wrong... you're accusing Riot of something it's not doing and they will disregard you as some flaming lunatic who is badmouthing them because he's salty.

And if you're just posting this hate to see others agree with you and feel good that other people are salty about the exact same thing about the game as you are... and you had NO other reason to post beyond to smell the rage of others and feel validated.... THAT IS A FUCKING CIRCLEJERK, YOU MORON.

So one last time, before you half-read my post and misunderstand/disregard it. What is your solution to this "adc problem"? What is the problem... why is the problem happening.... and what do you feel would fix the problem. Offer something of merit. Offer a solution or opinion on the problem and what can be done. Offer something besides rage at the problem and then rage at anything who doesn't respond to you with "I agree entirely bro, fuck that thing you hate!".

WHAT. IS. YOUR. SOLUTION?

Dextix LTMay 14, 20171 votes

You know, it feels like you have never read what i have written. I brought up DQ and what happened with it, not to say that i have been longer or anything like that, i just compared your logic and what you are doing now to what DQ lovers did then. I mean, did you even read everything or did you just read the first line and start the response? I outlined the situation and why "circljerk" as you call it apprears.

You also ignored the second part of my comment entirely not even adressing it in any way.

Also, did you read the third part of my post or did you just ignore everything? Because there i pointed out problems and solutions while comparing the balancing of this games adc's with DOTA.

So, before you write anything, could you please at least read what was written before? Because you literally ignored everything i have written. You accuse me of half reading, while i respond to all your points.

Yet you completely miss my points and dont even respond to them in any way.

Read my post first, then write the response, thank you, otherwise i will just copy paste the previous comment of mine, because that is LITERALLY what you are asking here in this comment.

The WhamboozlerMay 14, 20171 votes

Ahh, the old stand by of "LOL did you evern read?". Yes. Yes I did. I shouldn't have, but I did.

What I see here is a clumsy attempt to try and cling to the "high ground" in this discussion and change the subject. You know... that subject you have ignored AGAIN. You want to talk about not reading? What did I ask you in my post.... multiple times? What did you ignore... multiple times? What point are you even trying to make?

Are you really just raging on over my use of the term "circlejerk"? Tough shit kid, It's my opinion. You can't change that, and no amount of your piss-poor arguments will change that. You are raging and crying and saying "this is a problem, this is bad" without offering ANY solutions, advice or positive feedback of any sort. So the ONLY reason I can imagine why you are wasting your time is that you just want to complain and hear other people agree with you. And that, to me, is a fucking circlejerk.

But again... that is NOT what I am arguing about. I am telling you to OFFER SOME FUCKING SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO FIX THIS ADC PROBLEM. You know... the problem that you have? The thing that you claim to be so important a problem that you've wasted so much time posting about and flaming me about over the past few days. If this problem is important to you... what is your advice for how it could be fixed? Post something constructive for fuck's sake!

A post saying "This is stupid and OP" leaves NO option for discussion. It's a simple "you can agree with me or disagree with me and get flamed" post. It's pointless. It's useless. It does nothing but let you jerk off to seeing other people complain about the same thing so you can feel validated in your anger.

But at this point, I'm convinced that you don't actually have any suggestions, advice or rational ideas in you for this. You just wanted to bitch. Your hilarious contortions to keep attempting to put me on the defensive and change what the argument is about just proves this. I read your stupid post. It was a whole bunch of unrelated nonsense and repeating things you've already said that I wasn't even talking about. You, are terrible, at arguing.

So, last post. Attempting to reason with you has lost it's humor. I'll put this here AGAIN so I can watch you ignore it AGAIN while going off on some tirade about how because I didn't do some arbitrary thing you've decided I need to do now to "understand you" that you "won" or something. What is your solution to the problem you claim to be invested in? I don't care about your awful moon logic. I don't care about DQ or what it has to do with my question (nothing, btw). I don't care to watch you dance around avoiding the question while bringing up new shit left and right and hearing you demand "well what about THIS?" as if it has ANYTHING to do with what I asked you. You argue like a spastic child that keeps moving the topic of the debate and then proclaims victory if I stop bothering to chase you to your new, made-up goalpost. I asked you ONE question. ONE. It isn't hard. Answer me, or I'm just going to write you off as HAVING no point and only wanting to circlejerk and act like a moron.

What do you think Riot can/should do to fix the problem with adcs?

Once more, since you don't seem to listen.

WHAT DO YOU THINK RIOT CAN/SHOULD DO TO FIX THE PROBLEM WITH ADCS?

If you ignore again the ONLY THING I have asked you, and the ONLY THING I am actually arguing about here, you are just proving to me everything I have said already. That you HAVE no ideas, that you only post here to circlejerk and rage, and that your constant attempts to change the fucking topic to something else are just sad attempts to keep an argument going that you don't even seem to understand. That you are either an idiot or a troll, and either way, not worth mine or anyone's time. Answer my fucking question, or just stop posting garbage when you have nothing to actually say.

Once more so you can scroll down here and see it and not be confused.

WHAT DO YOU THINK RIOT CAN/SHOULD DO TO FIX THE PROBLEM WITH ADCS?

I await you ignoring my question once again and going off on some stupid tirade about something else, and claiming that this means you're "winning".

Dextix LTMay 14, 20171 votes

SInce you are not willing to read i will copy paste what i wrote previously, what are the problems with the adcs, and in some cases how to fix them, because it seems that you ARE unwilling to read. I have not ignored your question, you simply have ignored the answer, for 2 times already, let us see if you ignore this the third time.

For your convenience i will even bold and curve it.

_**GO to the roots of the problem. Adc's not losing anything meaningful for having range and being all over the place with their items and viabilities.

I use dota as my example here. There are melle adcs and other champioons that are viable as double laners in dota. An adc is not mandatory because it is not always the most effective. Why? Because ranged champions lose something for having range, and most importantly, late-game carriese are complete shit early and gods in late, it is how they should operate and be balanced around. In LOL however this is different. Ranged champions lose nothing meaningfull for having range and instead of being weak early and only lategame carries, they are not weak early (Compared to dota) but are still gods late, this does not allow anyone else to go bot besides an adc, and allows adcs to go top and destroy anyone playing there.

Look at the modern melle ad carries that we had that were supposed to go bot to fight with adc's. Yasuo and Mordekaiser. Want to hear what unites them? Just to have a CHANCE at fighting ranged adc's they had to be made completely overloaded and in some cases broken. That ALONE shows how dominant the role of adc's in this game is, if there is no viable way to make a melle adc to contest with them on lane, there is a problem. In dota, i can easily take a melle champion and lane versus ranged with no problems, because it is balanced in a way that it is viable.

Itemization is also a problem. While i think mages are not in a bad spot, let us face it, their itemization when compared to ad itemzation is SHITE. Ad itemizations have a lot of choices and items for any situation needed. In my opinion the biggest problem here is that Riot removed the lessesned item effects for ranged adc's, which makes them overbearing with certain items. Currently BORK was buffed, and guess what, its broken again (For a thrid time i think now?) and champs like Lucian are clearly abusing BC. BORK in itself has to get reworked or deleted,because as an item it simply is badly designed and just like a broken champion it has to be either kept unusable or in op state.

But that is nnot the biggest itemization problem.

The biggest itemization nightmares are deaths dance, phantom dancer and maw of martimorius. Andthe recently added GA with offensive stats. Why is it an itemization nightmare? Because it RUINS the class counter dynamic. Adc's are supposed to be WEAK to burst damage, if assasin or a mage gets to them, they should die unless they manage to dodge their skills. These items however stop that from happening and the weakness from burst damage disappears. This ruins the class dynamic in a huge way and makes the class unbalanced. When you can buy items to cover for your weaknesses and remove them, that is a huge problem in LOL.**_

I wrote all of this, yet you ignored all of this. Sorry, but i can actually quote what you have ignored, because i HAVE answered your questions multiple times.

I did not even move the topic of the debate, i have made 3 separate points, all of which adress your different points and are separated by a line. You call me a spastic child while i have been carefully making separate points for your convenience, for you to just not even read them as exemplified by me needing to repost an entire paragraph that directly answers to your insistent question which according to you i ignore.

It is funny how you call me terrible at arguing, when you ignoring every counterpoint to your points would lose you any debate in any proper championship, especially since all of your points were adressed with CLEARLY defined counterpoints

P.S - Constant ad hominem attacks show that you have nothing more to say.

The WhamboozlerMay 15, 20171 votes

Ok. I'll bite. So this was your "suggestion"? I ignored this because it seemed mostly like more bitching, but let's go over it then, shall we?

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8lWHiLn,comment-id=000600030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-13T05:52:45.480+0000)

GO to the roots of the problem. Adc's not losing anything meaningful for having range and being all over the place with their items and viabilities.

I use dota as my example here. There are melle adcs and other champioons that are viable as double laners in dota. An adc is not mandatory because it is not always the most effective. Why? Because ranged champions lose something for having range, and most importantly, late-game carriese are complete shit early and gods in late, it is how they should operate and be balanced around. In LOL however this is different. Ranged champions lose nothing meaningfull for having range and instead of being weak early and only lategame carries, they are not weak early (Compared to dota) but are still gods late, this does not allow anyone else to go bot besides an adc, and allows adcs to go top and destroy anyone playing there.

Ok. We'll start here. Putting aside the fact that you can't spell for shit, this isn't a suggestion for fixing things. You say "DotA champs lose something meaningful for the advantage of range" but you don't state what this is, how league could do the same or the like. You basically just say "dota doesn't have the problem!" then whine about adc's being dominant some more.

WHY does DotA not have the adc problem? Do you even know? Because I understand why it does to an extent and it is because of a few very important mechanical differences between the two games that make kiting incredibly had in Dota. It would be impossible for league to do things the way DotA does unless they change a lot of the game's basic mechanics.

But again. This isn't a suggestion, it's just bitching.

Look at the modern melle ad carries that we had that were supposed to go bot to fight with adc's. Yasuo and Mordekaiser. Want to hear what unites them? Just to have a CHANCE at fighting ranged adc's they had to be made completely overloaded and in some cases broken. That ALONE shows how dominant the role of adc's in this game is, if there is no viable way to make a melle adc to contest with them on lane, there is a problem. In dota, i can easily take a melle champion and lane versus ranged with no problems, because it is balanced in a way that it is viable.

Yasuo was never meant to be a bot laner. Morde was for a brief time... but that ended poorly. In either case, this ALSO isn't a suggestion. It's just more whining. "OMG, you have to be overloaded as hell to compete with adc's bot lane!". Also again you say "OMG dota does it right!". I'm beginning to wonder why you don't just play DotA.

Itemization is also a problem. While i think mages are not in a bad spot, let us face it, their itemization when compared to ad itemzation is SHITE. Ad itemizations have a lot of choices and items for any situation needed. In my opinion the biggest problem here is that Riot removed the lessesned item effects for ranged adc's, which makes them overbearing with certain items. Currently BORK was buffed, and guess what, its broken again (For a thrid time i think now?) and champs like Lucian are clearly abusing BC. BORK in itself has to get reworked or deleted,because as an item it simply is badly designed and just like a broken champion it has to be either kept unusable or in op state.

Sweet god, this came close to being what I asked for. Let's see if I can sum up your points here. "AD items are overall superior to AP items". This is just opinion, but it's something. "Riot makes AD items work the same for melee and ranged champs". Well the fix you're alluding to there is changing that, even if you don't give an specific examples of items you'd change or how... but it's the closest you've come to anything useful so far! Kudos.

The only real fix you suggest here is "Riot should rework/delete BotRK". Which I didn't really give you points for because "OMG Riot, delete yasuo/riven/fizz/adcs/assassins/keystones/what-have-you" is the most knee-jerk useless example of a rage post. Still, it's close. Elaborate? Rework BotRK HOW? You get no points for "delete X" posts, sorry. If we gave points for that, there are a ton of peeps who would be master debaters and game-balancers based on how much the spam posts begging for champs they hate to be deleted.

But that is nnot the biggest itemization problem.

The biggest itemization nightmares are deaths dance, phantom dancer and maw of martimorius. Andthe recently added GA with offensive stats. Why is it an itemization nightmare? Because it RUINS the class counter dynamic. Adc's are supposed to be WEAK to burst damage, if assasin or a mage gets to them, they should die unless they manage to dodge their skills. These items however stop that from happening and the weakness from burst damage disappears. This ruins the class dynamic in a huge way and makes the class unbalanced. When you can buy items to cover for your weaknesses and remove them, that is a huge problem in LOL.

Ok cool. You don't like the current ADC items. We GOT that. How do you want to CHANGE them? How do you feel they'd be balanced? You're STILL not offering any advice, you're just pointing at targets and saying "That is bad". That isn't what I asked. I asked how you would make things GOOD. And so far it seems to only answer you have is "delete everything I feel is OP". That is not advice. That is the rantings of a salty mofo who is raging. No one takes "OMG RIOT, DELETE X" posts seriously. No one.

You don't like Death's Dance, Phantom Dancer and Maw? Great! How would you fix them? Delete them all you say? Well... you DIDN'T say that, but you didn't say anything else either... so I can only assume based on you wanting to delete BotRK that you'd be fine with deleting the others as well. Along with any champ you don't like, keystones you think are OP and to top it off every player of higher ranking than you so you can finally be the best in the world. Also, as long as we're still dreaming... you may as well ask for a pony.

Riot isn't gonna delete all this shit. Get real. And you have STILL not actually offered any suggestion, fix idea or advice to make the game better.

The entire class needs work, but by all means ignore anything you see and treat this as circlejerk just like people did when they argued for DQ.

This STILL has nothing to do with DQ and you keep bringing it up as if it fucking does. Between that and the constant spelling errors and lack of understanding what I'm asking you, I am guessing either English is your second language... or you're just daft as fuck.

But this is the part where I apologize to you... because in that monster of a circlejerk post up above you DID do what I asked... kinda... probably accidentally. You offered the vaguest of suggestions... almost. You Implied that Riot should alter AD items to make them work less effectively for non-melee champs. AKA: The Ravenous Hydra thing. I really had to read between your poorly spelled lines to find that idea... you didn't say anything specific about how you'd alter these items and how, and honestly... you didn't even really say this outright, only kinda half-assedly implied it while complaining... but I will give a point where it is due. You met the letter of what I asked you... indirectly and by accident most likely.

I ignored this rant of a post because 98% of it is NOT what I asked, and the fact that you seem to think it is just shows why we're still having this stupid argument. You do, in fact, have NO IDEA what the hell I'm saying. You're just going on about your issues with ADCs and oddly fixated on DQ for some inane reason and you just don't get it. You hear me say "ok, so how do we fix adcs" and you reply "Well Death's Dance and BotRK are so OP". So... make them weaker? Make them cost more? Make them melee only?

By now I'm honestly not really expecting any kinds of sane ideas from you at all, but we've come this far so let's fuckin' go. I read your stupid post (again). Now you can FINALLY tell me what I've been asking all this time.

**What do you think Riot can and should do to bring adc's into line and balance the game better around them? **

I don't want you to point at why they're broken. I fucking know why they're broken. I don't want you to jump to the rager's standard answer of "delete X item/champ". I want you to give me at least ONE freaking specific example of something you would do to balance out the adc problem. Just. Fucking. ONE.

Do it.

Do it.

Dextix LTMay 15, 20171 votes

Still continuing with ad hominems......

Alright, sincei have to spell EVERYTHING out for you and you dont see the obivious things i am saying, i will bite.

DOTA has no problem with ranged vs melle carries due to 3 reasons.

1- Turn timers, all characters have to turn and it is not instant, this makes kiting nearly impposible and allows melle champs to get a drop on ranged if the ranged ones do not pay attention.

Abundance of regeneration items early and insane mana costs. Early th regeneration and defensive items in DOTA are incredibly strong, as such even if you get poke heavily you can heal through that, without even mentioning the lifesteal champions.
Ranged carries have their base damage cut in half early when compared to melles, they simply have lower dmaage at that point, incredibly so, as such they are not as dominant in lane because their poke is lower. To compensate for that they have godlike lategame and other incredible abilities, such as snipers range.

In case you did not understand i was arguing for one of these 3 options that DOTA has, this is one of the reason why i used Dota as a comparison, to use their methods. Method number 3 seems like the best choice for LOL

Yasuo and mordekaiser points were there to exemplify the problem, but such things as examples seem to mean nothing to you.

Ad items being superior to ap items is not really an opinion, but a fact that you can observe just by looking at the effects of ap and ad items. Ap and ad carries should serve the same function, damage. However only ad carries receive such a huge defensive array of tools for their use while ap carries do not. As such ap itemization is weaker than ad, because ad itemization offers what ap does not, survival.

And i cannot offer a lot of specific examples of how items should be changed for melle/ranged, because most of ad items should be changed in that way, otherwise they are abused by the ad carries.

The only main items i see are Black cleaver/ Maw/ GA that, at least currently would nee changes on their effects for melle/ranged. Usually it should be a 50% or so effect reduction for ranged.

And it seems that you wilfully misinterpreted my Bork mention. This is not a rage post or one of those stupid (DELETE X, X IS STUPID). No, it is simply logic. Bork as an item can never be properly balanced. Either it is op or it is up, there is no middle ground with it. It is impposible to balance it in such a state, and just like champions in such a state it should get a rework, or since it is an item, be deleted like so many others. DO not delete because it is op, no, delete it OR rework it because historically it has been impposible to balance.

If you have read my post you would understand that i consider the defensive options for ad champions unhealthy. And if you thought logically instead of trying to intentionally misinterpret my words, you would understand that since those defensive options are what makes adc's too strong, they should be removed or given higher counterplay.

I will refer to Dota again, let us say, you buy a BKB, which has an effect to make you immune to magic. No the thing that happens is that you lost a slot to a defensive item and cant buy another offensive item on that slot.

Adc's in LOL have no such problem as their offensive items come with defensive options. Which ruins the class counter dynamic, because it makes adc's, the targets that should be easy to kill unless defended, into solo carries.

Defensive item should remain defensive while damage items should remain damage. If an item is defensive it should lose its damage to an extent, same with damage items who have defensive capabilities. Otherwise if you have hybrid items such as these they are bad for the game.

So in case you want to misinterpret this again - Tl;DR - Damage items should not have defensive capabilities without losing some of their damage output.

And it seems that you still did not understand my point about DQ at all. It was not about DQ, it was to show how you acted in the same way that DQ defenders did previously, intentionally strawmaning and misrepresenting everything you disagree with as circlejerk no matter what.

But i do not expect much from you, all i have received from you in this "discussion" is ad hominem attacks and intentional misrepresentations of my arguments.

The WhamboozlerMay 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8lWHiLn,comment-id=000600030000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-15T07:34:02.158+0000)

Still continuing with ad hominems......

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Alright, sincei have to spell EVERYTHING out for you and you dont see the obivious things i am saying, i will bite.

See? THIS? This is an ad hominem argument. Oh what's that? I've been doing that too? Oh well then I guess we BOTH have and your attempts to try and gain leverage by accusing me of them just fell flat, didn't it?

DOTA has no problem with ranged vs melle carries due to 3 reasons.

1- Turn timers, all characters have to turn and it is not instant, this makes kiting nearly impposible and allows melle champs to get a drop on ranged if the ranged ones do not pay attention.

Abundance of regeneration items early and insane mana costs. Early th regeneration and defensive items in DOTA are incredibly strong, as such even if you get poke heavily you can heal through that, without even mentioning the lifesteal champions.

Ranged carries have their base damage cut in half early when compared to melles, they simply have lower dmaage at that point, incredibly so, as such they are not as dominant in lane because their poke is lower. To compensate for that they have godlike lategame and other incredible abilities, such as snipers range.

In case you did not understand i was arguing for one of these 3 options that DOTA has, this is one of the reason why i used Dota as a comparison, to use their methods. Method number 3 seems like the best choice for LOL

Finally. Light! Reason!

Ok then. First off, I KNOW DotA balances ranged champs out more severely dude. I said as much. I was asking for "what do you feel would balance things". While this here might not be much more than just parroting their idea, at least it's a freaking start! Ok. So you think a good solution would be to add more early regen items to make poke less potent and to cut ranged champions damage down by... half?

Seems fucking extreme, but at this point I'll take it. At least you FINALLY fucking put down a actual suggested fix for the problem. It only took like four days and 7 rage posts!

Yasuo and mordekaiser points were there to exemplify the problem, but such things as examples seem to mean nothing to you.

No. No they do not. Because I did not ASK for examples of the fucking problem. In fact, them even being examples of the problem is fucking debatable, since Morde bot was a trash fire and a lousy idea in the first place... and again... Yasuo is NOT A BOT LANER.

But it doesn't matter... because I did not ASK for examples of anything. I do not CARE about examples of anything. It is very easy to find examples to suit your argument no matter WHAT your argument is. I asked for "What do you feel would balance out adcs?".

You don't get to be indignant when I do not care about something I did not ask for.

Ad items being superior to ap items is not really an opinion, but a fact that you can observe just by looking at the effects of ap and ad items. Ap and ad carries should serve the same function, damage. However only ad carries receive such a huge defensive array of tools for their use while ap carries do not. As such ap itemization is weaker than ad, because ad itemization offers what ap does not, survival.

Yes my friend, it is TOTALLY an opinion. There are some pretty nice AP items that offer things AD items do not. Hourglass and Protobelt immediately come to mind. An extra dash and an invulnerability are nothing to sneeze at. There are also a lot of items with both AP and a defensive stat as well... and AP items overall tend to offer better utility... while AD items offer raw stats and damage.

Which is better and more useful depends on the situation. MANY a game a good hourglass use will do more to save you from death or win a teamfight than +200 health ever could. Many a game, it's the other way around. This isn't a point, a suggestion, OR even one of these examples you seem to think are what I asked for. This is just your opinion, presented as if it's a fact. And even if it WERE fact... it's not a suggestion to balance things, it's just bitching about power again.

And i cannot offer a lot of specific examples of how items should be changed for melle/ranged, because most of ad items should be changed in that way, otherwise they are abused by the ad carries.

Ok, so your suggestion is "alter EVERYTHING" but you can't be bothered to say what items or how. This is pretty damned close to "delete everything" really... in that you just want a huge blanket nerf to something you don't like but you can't or won't explain how or why or what it might do to the state of the game. Just "I dislike it, so nerf it".

The only main items i see are Black cleaver/ Maw/ GA that, at least currently would nee changes on their effects for melle/ranged. Usually it should be a 50% or so effect reduction for ranged.

Ok. THIS is a suggestion. You want BC to be half as effective for ranged champs. I'll assume you mean the passive armor shred, because you are AGAIN non-specific... but it's a start. Why you can find the time for these elaborate rage posts flaming me but not to give a few specific examples of how you'd nerf/change items or champs to balance them is beyond me.

Maw and GA are harder to fit into your blanket statement there. Maw at half effectiveness? Um... the lifeline passive? What's half effective? The shield it gives you? The Lifelink stats cut in half? Both? The stats of the entire item AND it's passive half as strong? GA is even harder. How does one make GA half as effective on ranged champs? You revive with half of the health melee champs revive with? The stats of the item overall are half?

Ok... let's talk about this "half as effective" idea, since you've mentioned it several times now. First of all... THANK YOU for finally muddling into what I asked for... a fucking suggestion. Now we have something to actually talk about that isn't just flaming and bitching back and forth.

If you cut the stats or passives of these items in half, they will not be taken by ranged champs at all. If you JUST cut the passives in half, or even removing some of the passives from those items if you're ranged, that might be more reasonable... But what will this do to the game?

Well you'll get bot lane Ziggs again. ADC's getting weaker doesn't just make life easier for tanky melee champs who get kited to death. It makes life easier for Zed. For Talon. For Katarina. For any snowbally assassin-type who will get nice and fat and fed off of those weak as fuck adcs that are waiting for this lategame "god status" that you feel will make them balanced. Do you want to deal with assassins running the roost? They will. They're melee, so all these AD item nerfs won't affect them at all, and 6/0 Talon will be coming to your lane sooner or later once he's gotten his core items off of murdering the adc and support repeatedly. People will stop bothering using ADC's and just use mages or bruisers that can fulfill the job while being safer. Is this acceptable to you? Is this how you would prefer the game to be? I'm not even being snarky here, I'm genuinely curious if you understand or care about the fall out that will come of what you want.

And this stupid rant is so long, I'm going to have to break it into two parts. More below.

The WhamboozlerMay 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8lWHiLn,comment-id=000600030000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-15T07:34:02.158+0000)

And it seems that you wilfully misinterpreted my Bork mention. This is not a rage post or one of those stupid (DELETE X, X IS STUPID). No, it is simply logic. Bork as an item can never be properly balanced. Either it is op or it is up, there is no middle ground with it. It is impposible to balance it in such a state, and just like champions in such a state it should get a rework, or since it is an item, be deleted like so many others. DO not delete because it is op, no, delete it OR rework it because historically it has been impposible to balance.

This is just your opinion again. "BotRK will never be balanced". Why not? It seems like it should be fine to me. Ready? I'll make a suggestion right now and put my money where my mouth is. Turn the % health damage to % max health damage. Lower it to 3% or so. Remove the passive entirely. Remove 20 AD from it. BAM. Now it's an item for shredding health-stacking tanky types but it loses the burst damage that makes it attractive to assassins and bruisers. It is now a niche item that you get when the enemy's tanks are a problem, but it's rather sub-par otherwise. TADA!

See how easy it is to post a suggestion instead of just screaming "delete it!". That's all I'm fucking asking for man. A suggestion so that there is something in these posts to debate and TALK about. You can't talk about "This is broken and I hate it!". You can only agree or disagree. It's pointless.

If you have read my post you would understand that i consider the defensive options for ad champions unhealthy. And if you thought logically instead of trying to intentionally misinterpret my words, you would understand that since those defensive options are what makes adc's too strong, they should be removed or given higher counterplay.

I did read your post you idiot, I even quoted it. I just disagree with you. This is NOT the same thing.

I will refer to Dota again, let us say, you buy a BKB, which has an effect to make you immune to magic. No the thing that happens is that you lost a slot to a defensive item and cant buy another offensive item on that slot.

Ok. So here is what you are saying here. "Hybrid items that mix damage and defenses are too strong. Items should be defense or offense-focused, that way adc's picking up defensive items hurts their overall ability to kill things". This is a legitimate suggestion, even if I had to assume it for you since you're just ranting about dota again and trying to attack me personally.

To that idea I said... what happens to melee champs? Having no hybrid items WAS a thing back in the day. There were very few items that mixed AD and defenses (unless you considered lifesteal a defense). This was the era when they could not get melee champs who weren't tanks to matter. Being squishy was death if you had no range. This is why we had "mechanics" like Tryndamere's ult... because only by making a champions completely immune to death at a button press could Riot get him to survive while building mostly damage. Ranged kite champs would just shit on melees that built no defenses, and since there were no defenses on damage items, this made most melees into tanks by default. Maybe you'd get ONE damage item before you went full tank. Maybe.

This suggestion makes adc's STRONGER. Since they are the ones who are ok with building all damage and no defense. The champions this bones over are ones like Jarvan, Renekton, Pantheon, Xin Zhao, Sion, and so on. It's a huge hit to their damage or their durability. I remember when the game WAS more like this and killing a tank REQUIRED the adc. All the tanks and bruisers couldn't hurt each other and top lane was the lane of wet noodle fights. It made the adc MORE essential, not less.

And before you say "but I suggested nerfing them by half up above, that will balance it". No, no it will not. It will mean that NO ONE can hurt the tanks until the "godlike late game" adc's get. It will be an entire match of wet noodle fights, because anyone who doesn't build mostly tank would be an idiot. Every game would be full of tank ekko and tank fizz because % damage would be mandatory, and even then... everyone would be rediculously hard to kill.

Adc's in LOL have no such problem as their offensive items come with defensive options. Which ruins the class counter dynamic, because it makes adc's, the targets that should be easy to kill unless defended, into solo carries.

Er... SOME of their offensive options have defenses attached. Let's see.

item 3153 item 3147 item 1400 item 3508 item 3031 item 3036 item 3033 item 3072 item 3142 item 3124 item 3094 item 3087 item 3085

Those items are all used on adcs and all have little or NO defensive stats. I suppose if you consider lifesteal a defensive stat, that excludes one or two of them, but it still leaves a lot of adc standard itemization pretty defenseless.

Now item 3812 item 3156 and item 3046 DO have powerful defensive stats on them, and they seem to be what you're complaining about. Or at least, they should be. You're complaining about adcs in general when really it's these three items that are the problem. So how about... I dunno... you stop raging at an entire role and just talk about the actual problem? Just... food for thought.

Defensive item should remain defensive while damage items should remain damage. If an item is defensive it should lose its damage to an extent, same with damage items who have defensive capabilities. Otherwise if you have hybrid items such as these they are bad for the game.

So in case you want to misinterpret this again - Tl;DR - Damage items should not have defensive capabilities without losing some of their damage output.

No, I quite got your point. You didn't bother MAKING this point until just now... but I got it.

And it seems that you still did not understand my point about DQ at all. It was not about DQ, it was to show how you acted in the same way that DQ defenders did previously, intentionally strawmaning and misrepresenting everything you disagree with as circlejerk no matter what.

But i do not expect much from you, all i have received from you in this "discussion" is ad hominem attacks and intentional misrepresentations of my arguments.

And this is just why I still bother to respond to you in the first place... because it is hilarious. You brought DQ into things because you were reminded of DQ supporters? Lovely. What does that have to do with anything. You remind me a little of my uncle Charles... I guess I should make some points about you regarding him?

No dude... you brought up DQ because everyone hated DQ and you wanted to associate me with something negative in an attempt to paint yourself as more agreeable and pleasant. I fucking hated DQ too. I argued against it a ton when it was around. You're trying to play a negative association game to make your opponent look bad and it came out of left field so hard that it's obvious. You may as well have compared me to Stalin or something for how random and off-topic your attempt at mudslinging was. You've also repeatedly accused me of attacking you personally and not arguing the point... while you yourself are attacking me personally and not arguing the point. But, I guess it's only something to be derided when I do it, eh?

And in this long, rambling post of spelling errors, huge missteps of logic and repeated attempts at calling me an idiot for not getting your point when you had not bothered to MAKE a point until now... you are pretty much copy-pasting my words. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, I guess. I'll take it as a compliment, sir... that after this lengthy argument of madness and illogical rantings, that you have decided that my words make a better point than yours and are just repeating what I'm saying now. It's a fun ride.

Keep it coming.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMay 11, 20174 votes

ADCs will never be outclassed.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 11, 20174 votes

Can't say that we have damage creep seeing as AP has slowly went down over the seasons, not to mention armor pen got nerfed along with Tanks getting more armor items and a sweet item for the Teemos of the world. item 3194

Not saying that ADCs are weak, but don't knock the entire class rework as if it accomplished nothing. IMO if Riot didn't touch the tank's damage, we would be in a tank meta right now, and that's too far in the other direction.

MelledoneusMay 11, 201718 votes

We have lost tons of stats in HP, lost a reliable early rush item that was the only thing keeping tanks viable in the jungle and top lane, and Riot has given birth to the most demonically broken tank since Poppy: Sejuani.

I like our new MR items, but I honestly wanted more items to counter attack speed shredders and AD spellcasters.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 12, 20172 votes

IMO in that case it should be simple to fix, if Riot just gives us more HP, I'm sure all well be well. Maybe buff Sunfire a tad.

As for Armor items, what would you like to see in terms of new armor items to stop atk speed shredders, as Randiun's kinda fits that niche.

MelledoneusMay 12, 20173 votes

My good friend, Randuin's has been pigeon-holed into being an anti-crit item. The only real anti-attack speed item is Frozen Heart, which gives no HP and nothing but armor in terms of defensive stats, which is something we already have a shit ton of.