-5MS on champions like Mordekaiser or Kog'Maw would be a noticable but Irelia....?

NodirjonSattarov·Nov 5, 2018·45 votes·12,859 views

The champion has a reset-able dash and once she gets Phage that -5ms is a mere tickle.

41 Comments

ShadWoooNov 6, 20188 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Movement_speed

Even after nerf, Irelia is still in middle of the table on par with most mages for whom she is the hardest counter. And she is a champion who builds phage that grants extra 20 on killing minion and trinity force which adds +8%. So even if she didn't have dash with resets, which she has, she is still one of the fastest moving champions.

Additionally: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Range

She has highest base attack range for a melee champion. 200 when most melee champions has 125!! This is another contributor, while champion like Camille struggle to autoattack target running away from her, Irelia has no such issue which further makes this nerf a complete placebo one.

As for winrate, just mentioning champion in patch notes will make winrate drop. Hell winrates changes thorought the same patch sometimes, there is just too many factors for winrate and melee champions usually sit on under50% on average. That doesn't make them balanced in any way. The winrate drop here is most likely result of some fotm abusers moving back to different champions. I mean her play rate dropped along with winrate so that will probably be connected don't you think?

ZerenzaNov 6, 20181 votes

I agree a little actually, if i'm honest i think i would have prefered a -3 AD nerf to -5 MS nerf, it really only hurts her before her first back but i guess that's enough to make her not played in mid as often anymore. I completely agree that once a champion shows up in the patch notes their pretty much destined to have a lower playrate and winrate, i have plenty of friends that drop a champ the second they get nerfed, hell Faker does this quite often himself.

But for this nerf and in my opinion all base stat nerfs, they need to be left to sit for about 2-3 weeks before deciding whether the nerf was enough. In some cases after a week it's obvious it was enough in other's it's obvious it was too much but hopefully Irelia's puts her at a nice middle ground like it currently seems.

ProfDrDeathNov 5, 20187 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/historic/

And yet, her winrate dropped 1-1.5%. That's hardly a mere tickle.

ProfirixNov 5, 20187 votes

There was also in increase in Viktor top win rate at roughly the same time. Viktor is one of the harder counters to Irelia. The 5ms is more than likely not the reason her win rate dropped. It is simply fact that her ability to reset-dash negates any movement speed changes short of dropping her to 325.

SalronNov 5, 20184 votes

Irelia is Viktor's hardest counter the fuck are you smoking https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Viktor/

ProfirixNov 5, 20182 votes

Ah, I think I just read the counter percent in reverse. My bad.

NodirjonSattarovNov 5, 201827 votes

1-1.5% is hardly anything. When they changed Kog'maw W in patch 8.3 to do reduced % damage at rank 5 his win rate dropped 4.3%.

The crazy thing is that Irelia isn't dependent on her MS since she has the greatest, non-empowered AA range of any melee along side her Q and phage. The nerf didn't do anything to her and the dip in her win rate is a result of increased pick rate.

HäxelNov 6, 20185 votes

Well that is an extreme example. They just overnerfed him and buffed him 8.4 half way back so his winrate increased again around 2.2% so he finaly landed where Riot wanted him. Same also happened to Twitchs Winrate by nerfing his e damage 8.4 and buffing it half way back 8.5. there are far more champions like Evelynn or Shyvanna who Riot thought they nerfed them to hard just to buff them back next patch.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20181 votes

Except changes of that magnitude suck and do nothing except just kill off the champ.

I vastly prefer small changes, one at a time since they are less likely to completely trash or make a champ OP out of the blue.

Look at Ashe for instance, just extremely minor stuff like her E pinging spotted enemies and suddenly her winrate started rising, even though her pickrate saw a minor increase, around 2%, from 49 to 51% which is plenty balanced given a less than 4% playrate.

And Zyra also had her winrate jump from a bugfix that wasnt even the biggest one.

With changes like these its much easier to control where a champ lands in terms of winrate/playrate and such, that makes them sooo much better than those hamfisted slegehammer strikes we saw happen to kog/cait last season.

Z3SleeperNov 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Look at Ashe for instance, just extremely minor stuff like her E pinging spotted enemies and suddenly her winrate started rising, even though her pickrate saw a minor increase, around 2%, from 49 to 51% which is plenty balanced given a less than 4% playrate.

That is nowhere near the main reason for the 2% jump, this is:

Frost Shot

Base slow increased to 15% − 30% (based on level) from 10% − 20% (based on level).
Critical strike slow changed to double the slow amount instead of triple.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20181 votes

....I mean to be honest i kinda consider that one to be minor as well, the only real difference is a better slow early but it should even out pretty quickly, and Ashe doesnt really fight much early at any rate.

Z3SleeperNov 6, 20181 votes

Considering Crit isn't a rush stat for Ashe, this is actually pretty major. Makes her even stronger vs champions she was already strong against.

Don't underestimate the power of an extra 5-10% on a potentially permanent slow.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Considering Crit isn't a rush stat for Ashe, this is actually pretty major. Makes her even stronger vs champions she was already strong against.

Doesnt really matter if you rush crit or not as the slow scales with levels at any rate.

Don't underestimate the power of an extra 5-10% on a potentially permanent slow.

Dont get me wrong, its a good buff however for Ashe its kinda situational just because she doesnt fight much, she mainly just farms and pokes in lane and doesnt get aggressive until lvl 6 for the most time and her old and slow should be about the same after lvl 7.

So, overall its truly quite minor, but added with her E buff it does make a difference.....seriously its hard for teammates to pay attention to the map at all times so the chance of them missing her E showing an enemy were high unless manually pinged which was a hassle and easy to forget doing.

Z3SleeperNov 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Doesnt really matter if you rush crit or not as the slow scales with levels at any rate.

That's literally my point. Since every Ashe goes BotRK -> Runaans.

hhaavviikkNov 5, 20185 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/historic/

And yet, her winrate dropped 1-1.5%. That's hardly a mere tickle.

winrates mean nothing, wanna know what happened when riot put a nerf in the patchnotes for vayne without actually putting the nerf into the game? yeah vayne her winrate dropped, you literally do not have to do a single thing to a champion to change their win rate, just put stuff in the patch notes.

BraveCapuccinoNov 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/historic/

And yet, her winrate dropped 1-1.5%. That's hardly a mere tickle.

People just like to complain

PaffWasTakenNov 6, 20181 votes

Her playrate also decreased by a large margin in some elos, and this has much more impact on winrates than a mere -5ms on an ultra mobile champ

SwiftKitten88Nov 5, 20185 votes

yeah that change did about as much to ger as increasing the cooldown of nid's kitty from skills from 5 seconds to 6 seconds. it was riot's half ass attempt to "nerf" something without actually nerfing it to try to get people to be quiet about it.

the difference is... nid actually got gutted the next patch because of indirect nerfs like the gutting of item 3116 ( which was fixed a YEAR later)

and the complete removal of strength of the ages.

irelia doesn't need the move-speed nerf, that literally has no effect.

there isnt a single point in the game were irelia isn't going to catch you because "movement speed".

shitty things like that do are annoy the people who play the champ without actually fixing anything..

and u can guarantee.. she is never going to get that movement speed back.. because riot wont even undo placebo nerfs that had no real effect, other than to MESS UP MY FUCKING TIMING.

SalamencęNov 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

yeah that change did about as much to ger as increasing the cooldown of nid's kitty from skills from 5 seconds to 6 seconds. it was riot shalf ass attempt to "nerf" something wihout actaully nerfing it to try to get people top be quiet about it.

the difference is... nid actually got gutted the next patch becuase of indirect nerfs like the gutting of ( which was fixed a YEAR later)

and the complete removal of strength of the ages.

irelia donest need the move-speed nerf,, that literally has no effect.

there isnt a single point in the game were irelia isnt going to catch you becuase "movement speed".

shitty things like that do are annoy the people who play the champ without actually fixing anything..

and u can guarentee.. she is never going to get that movement speed back.. becuase irot wont even undo placebo nerfs that had no real effect, other than to MESS UP MY FUCKING TIMING.

How come on every post you comment on you feel the need to somehow bring Nidalee into it and try to hijack the post to complain about her?

JeaneGreeneNov 6, 20185 votes

It’s funny seeing all of the people saying “5 ms is massive etc...”

It is (over the course of the game) about a 20 second difference in movement. 20 whole seconds. The 5 ma doesn’t make her dodge skill shots any worse. It doesn’t hurt her waveclear. It is entirely a placebo nerf.

Edit: Now after doing the math, I think it is closer to 10 seconds difference. To walk from base to base as 340 Irelia it takes 57 seconds, while 335 Irelia takes 58 seconds. This will not affect much, of anything at all.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20182 votes

And yet her winrate still dropped by like 1,5%-

Plenty of champs would be in a borderline OP state if their winrate rose by that much.

JeaneGreeneNov 6, 20182 votes

One time Vayne’s winrate dropped in a patch before her nerfs were actually implemented. Same thing happened with Vlad.

Pika FoxNov 5, 20183 votes

5 MS on her is still massive. Its not like shes kassadin and has free map mobility, she still needs something to Q to, and given most of her damage is off auto attacks, it nerfs her sticking potential.

Frosted TipsNov 5, 20189 votes

Massive is definitely an overstatement. 5 MS is noticable for sure but not massive. 5 MS is like less than a second difference to get from one lane to another.

Pika FoxNov 5, 20183 votes

No, its quite massive. People undervalue movement speed, but it affects virtually everything you do; dodging skillshots, getting in range for your own abilities, chasing, escaping. 5 MS adds up for all of those.

Frosted TipsNov 6, 20189 votes

Still no huge because she still sits with a middle to high tier of base MS and she has a dash with a reset and a stun that doesn't impede her on movement to cast and a way to reduce damage. It is noticeable, but again not massive. Not like the changes to her Q woth minion damage. That was a massive change.

Pika FoxNov 6, 20181 votes

No, its still massive. She has a higher than average MS because shes melee, and all melees get standardized to having more MS than ranged champs.

Frosted TipsNov 6, 20182 votes

Mordekaiser and Nautilus would like a word with you about MS they both have 325. The lowest standard movement speed in the game excluding Janna who has movement speed buff in her kit and unmounted Kled.

Pika FoxNov 6, 20181 votes

Not really much of an argument. Neither of them have been standardized. Morde needs a rework, and nauts lower movespeed was to try and keep him in check in the jungle back when people actually played him, given hes a tank with a lot of CC.

Frosted TipsNov 7, 20181 votes

No, its still massive. She has a higher than average MS because shes melee, and all melees get standardized to having more MS than ranged champs.

Ok then you disagree when I show you two champions that don't follow well here is some more Alistar and Gragas woth 330 and let us just look at all the champions that are closer in design to Irelia tied with the current 335 MS; Jayce and Talon yet those two have less mobility and less survivability and less CC and are not item 3078 users that get 20-60 additional MS from that item.

SithesisLordNov 6, 20182 votes

And yet, it would easily drop the winrates of TK, Kayle, Morde, Kog'Maw and Darius by double the amount of what it dropped for Irelia, at least.

Her movement speed is not why she's an issue and Riot is still refusing to nerf her in the right place.

PaffWasTakenNov 6, 20181 votes

Yeah, but Kassadin's ult actually has a cooldown (even if short) that can't be reset by killing or hitting anything that you hit with another spell. Also, Irelia's Q mana cost is so low that the ability is just free to cast during the entire game, while Kass's ult repetitive casts costs more than her entire mana bar per cast at level 16

FridgeDNov 6, 20183 votes

aaaaand the next irelia cry thread ... have you tried looking into any stat side? show me 1 where she is op! she isnt! and stop crying about the nerf, her winrate is around/under 50% in every elo. if she would be so freaking broken, atleast the highelo dudes would know how to get a higher winrate. but even there she is under 50% in mid and top.

-5 flat ms always hurts. even on champions with gapclosers. in most fights irelia cant use her q more than 3 or 4 times. after that, it is simple chasing.

it is the end of season 8 and boards is still a place to cry about champs that killed you in yolo q or countered your main champ. SAD!

chipndip1Nov 6, 20182 votes

I don't know if anyone can make you guys get it, so you can stay and not get it.

BLIGHTBRINGERNov 6, 20182 votes

item 3044 < this gives her 60 Movement Speed if she kills something with it. Like that -5 Movement Speed was gonna change anything.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20181 votes

And many champs(juggernauts mainly) who have the intended weakness of being slow and immobile also get phage to cover their weakness as much as they can, but its not perfect and irelia´s winrate did drop by 1,5% or so from what others linked into the thread.

Your point`?

BLIGHTBRINGERNov 6, 20181 votes

Fair enough reason but for a Mobile champion like Irelia, she will manage to have this +60 bonus active almost 60% of the time (once she has the ability to insta-kill minions with Tiamat, Trinity Q combo, even with the bonus duration being low) if not more as long as she remains near minion waves.

I forgot to mention that Phage also grants +30 bonus movement speed as long ad she hits something, her Q also triggers this. But I don't think it was going to matter if I said this or not, I got attacked by what I assume are Irelia mains.

ThefrostyvikingNov 6, 20181 votes

I mean, your entire argument was that the -5 movespeed nerf would have 0 impact but apparently statistics show that it did, trying to argue about it in hindsight is....not really going to work?

I suspect that both irelia mains and followers of statistics downvoted but i dont really see why they should have bothered x)

BLIGHTBRINGERNov 6, 20181 votes

I was saying that it had no impact gameplay-wise, I didn't mention nor deny that it had no impact on her stat-wise.

I suspect it could also be a case of maybe some of her counters getting buffed or better in general, which would result in some winrate change for her.

WoΘxerNov 6, 20181 votes

Community at it's finest talk senseless shit u get upvoted, state valid argument downvoted to hell.

RightClick McGeeNov 6, 20181 votes

The -5ms is by far the most slap in the face thing they've done in years especially when a mobile bruiser with inate peel (her w) as a 200 auto attack range meanwhile other "juggernauts" don't have the range and or mobility to compensate