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"Riven is overtuned for the top players!"

Arya Riven·Jan 20, 2017·5 votes·3,005 views

Okay, let us talk 'top players', as if that matters to 99% of players. Probuilds is the source of data for professional players in master and challenger tier soloQ.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Jayce 59%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Kennen 52%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Gangplank 56%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Darius 58%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Camille 63%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Irelia 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Yasuo 50%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Nautilus 55%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Poppy 57%

Hmm... it almost looks like for top players, the best, that Riven and Yasuo are hovering at a nice, fair win rate compared to actual meta monsters like Jayce, Camille and Poppy.

If you are going to complain about Riven doing too well, please don't use top tier players as an example. You'll notice they never complain about her. She is a little too strong in Diamond and somewhat in low masters. She has low win rates below that and fair win rates above that.

50 Comments

RexSaurJan 20, 20174 votes

"Darius is bad at high elo" > 58% win rate

"Riven is overpowered in high elo" 51% win rate

Sounds about right

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

It's funny, because I see Adrian and BoxBox face Darius all the time, often losing. Yet people say he is worthless in high tier play.

dominusxJan 20, 20172 votes

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO DODGE THE Q. how many braincells does it take to dodge his main dmg source. good lord.. And ofc they will lsoe to fkn darius. Darius outscales Riven easily post 1st buy. and one mistake makes or loses this lane it's a SKILL MATCH UP something meta abusing players lack severly.

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO DODGE THE Q. how many braincells does it take to dodge his main dmg source. good lord.. And ofc they will lsoe to fkn darius. Darius outscales Riven easily post 1st buy. and one mistake makes or loses this lane it's a SKILL MATCH UP something meta abusing players lack severly.

Then how are Adrian and Box Box losing to Darius?

Not sure about Viper, but he probably wins them, being top 3 Challenger last I checked. Revenge is somewhere close too.

dominusxJan 20, 20172 votes

boxbox is a fkn joke he is a pubstomper any of the true darius onetricks would shit down his throat in 5 different ways. Viper wins any matchUp . Adrian i dunno i dont follow him but he doesnt always lose to darius

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Viper is currently playing more Fiora, Camille than Riven.

dominusxJan 20, 20172 votes

cause he is SMART Riven isnt worth one tricking nowadays.

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Exactly the point of my post :) she isn't OP.

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

boxbox is a fkn joke he is a pubstomper any of the true darius onetricks would shit down his throat in 5 different ways. Viper wins any matchUp . Adrian i dunno i dont follow him but he doesnt always lose to darius

Then how is he in... uh.. what elo's Box Box in? Challenger?

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Challenger so is Adrian.

dominusxJan 20, 20171 votes

cause um.. hurr he plays a few games to get into chall then camps masters. that's why. 70% of his content is pubstomping d5's i can do that aswell wihtout beeing ariven onetrick. i respected boxbox when i as lower elo in season 4 but right now i wouldnt wanna have him on my team. only riven mains i respect are Viper/Adrian/Dekar

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

cause um.. hurr he plays a few games to get into chall then camps masters. that's why. 70% of his content is pubstomping d5's i can do that aswell wihtout beeing ariven onetrick. i respected boxbox when i as lower elo in season 4 but right now i wouldnt wanna have him on my team. only riven mains i respect are Viper/Adrian/Dekar

Then how is he Challenger?

And how did he get to Challenger in the first place?

Dekar literally rarely ever plays seriously, and has admitted that if he was, he'd take TP instead of combat summs. He's basically what you're saying Box Box is, except he doesn't bother trying to get into Challenger. How could u respect him?

dominusxJan 20, 20171 votes

i respect him cause he speaks his mind openly to everything even if you are a sub to him if you talk stupid shit he will call you out. and i follow him since season 4 or something so it doesnt matter to me i will always respect him. Btw If i remember correct boxbox always rushes to challenger in the early season where elo is trash so it's easy to climb then just plays on smurfs while camping mid masters. Wouldnt call him a bad player but wouldnt call him anything special either.

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

i respect him cause he speaks his mind openly to everything even if you are a sub to him if you talk stupid shit he will call you out. and i follow him since season 4 or something so it doesnt matter to me i will always respect him. Btw If i remember correct boxbox always rushes to challenger in the early season where elo is trash so it's easy to climb then just plays on smurfs while camping mid masters. Wouldnt call him a bad player but wouldnt call him anything special either.

Well, you kinda said that people who couldn't dodge Darius Q clearly lacked braincells, so... you also said that Darius onetricks would stomp him, but before that, you implied that anyone who could dodge Darius Q would beat him easy... wtf.

dominusxJan 20, 20171 votes

and you made a discussion go from darius v riven match to talking about riven mains make up your mind what you wanna discuss with me.

-Darius Vs Riven matchUp is a purely skill matchup if you cancel her 3rd Q you win as Darius if she dodges your Axe she wins trades. If both champs recall and buy Darius usually can win a straight up 1v1 but a good riven player will never prolonge a fight vs darius she will trade 2-3 times to get him half health then all in him thats about the matchup.

Now about Riven players i like dekar because he speaks his mind as i said above and i like his overall tips specially when he used to dynamiq boost he was a good coach to his subs even when he trashtalks stupid mistakes. Reason i dont like boxbox ( not like actually i do like him just dont have him high up mu list) is because he rushes chall early season and if you have been high elo you will know what ppl think of early season challengers the dudes wh end up below rank 150 at the end of the season in short and then he camps his acc at mid masters pubstomping which is SMART cause he makes money but thta doesnt make him a better player. Viper/Adrian i like both of them.

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

and you made a discussion go from darius v riven match to talking about riven mains make up your mind what you wanna discuss with me.

-Darius Vs Riven matchUp is a purely skill matchup if you cancel her 3rd Q you win as Darius if she dodges your Axe she wins trades. If both champs recall and buy Darius usually can win a straight up 1v1 but a good riven player will never prolonge a fight vs darius she will trade 2-3 times to get him half health then all in him thats about the matchup.

Now about Riven players i like dekar because he speaks his mind as i said above and i like his overall tips specially when he used to dynamiq boost he was a good coach to his subs even when he trashtalks stupid mistakes. Reason i dont like boxbox ( not like actually i do like him just dont have him high up mu list) is because he rushes chall early season and if you have been high elo you will know what ppl think of early season challengers the dudes wh end up below rank 150 at the end of the season in short and then he camps his acc at mid masters pubstomping which is SMART cause he makes money but thta doesnt make him a better player. Viper/Adrian i like both of them.

Yes, I know the match up, but you seemed to be saying that dodging Darius Q was easy as fuck and anyone who couldn't do it needed braincells (as he's completely reliant on hitting that Q, or proccing passive).

dominusxJan 20, 20171 votes

the dodge q part was meant for overall not just in 1v1's. But i kinda get triggered cause most of the posts here are low elo's crying so i cant go in here with the whole woopdie do we gonan have a nice discussion attitude i have going in on M&Gs

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

the dodge q part was meant for overall not just in 1v1's. But i kinda get triggered cause most of the posts here are low elo's crying so i cant go in here with the whole woopdie do we gonan have a nice discussion attitude i have going in on M&Gs

Eh, you gotta realize most mages/adc's/supports without dashes can't actually dodge a Darius with Black Cleaver's Q, and those whose CC/peel is their dash need to burn that before Darius Q's, else Darius will get to the back line, and if he E's them or slows them, there is no way they're gonna dodge his Q blade. An E + Q combo is severely underutilized imo, it requires near instant reactions/button mashing and the dash animation to be fast enough (unless it's maokai)

AhristocatsJan 20, 20172 votes

there is nothing you can do against a good riven, god i hate this shit

should i update every darius vs riven on youtube to show you? what the fuck do you want to do against a buny rushing you with a shield+stun and knock back while dishing out tons of damage? wanna get 5 stacks? you're already dead wanna get Q? you can't

stop talking shit now thanks

Asayake 5150glowJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2017-01-20T22:29:31.503+0000)

there is nothing you can do against a good riven, god i hate this shit

should i update every darius vs riven on youtube to show you? what the fuck do you want to do against a buny rushing you with a shield+stun and knock back while dishing out tons of damage? wanna get 5 stacks? you're already dead wanna get Q? you can't

stop talking shit now thanks

A bunny rushing you with shield+stun is a bunny who fucked up.

She should always engage with Q.

After she Q combo's, E+Q instantly, her Stormraiders isn't enough and she has no dashes left since she probably E'd out.

AhristocatsJan 20, 20172 votes

i didn't say she rushed you with a shield+stun, i said: -she rushed you -she has a shield and a stun

there is no point to E out you win in 1v1 against darius, no reason to get out

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Riven wins lane vs Darius. It is called a counter. If he survives early game he wins post 6. :)

AhristocatsJan 20, 20172 votes

he never wins, post or pres 6

and i know it's a counter, just answering to this "why boxbox is losing against darius as riven" either he's trash or he don't lose against him that's all

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

BoxBox and Adrian do not always lose vs Darius. Also I wouldn't call challenger players trash while being in Diamond. Not trying to be rude, obviously I am not rank calling. But they are better than you and you are better than me. So I wouldn't call you trash, as that would automatically make me trash.

However just as top tier Riven's can dodge Darius Q, Darius knows this because he is also a top tier player, and thus plays around the idea. Later in the game he does win vs her if he made it about even in laning :)

AhristocatsJan 20, 20172 votes

obviously he's better than me, but i'm considering him trash compared to the other challenger players if he can't win against darius as riven

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=000000010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T23:32:12.010+0000)

However just as top tier Riven's can dodge Darius Q, Darius knows this because he is also a top tier player, and thus plays around the idea.

how exactly do you play around it?

Arya RivenJan 21, 20171 votes

Do I look challenger to you? go ask some top tier Darius player XD

https://champion.gg/matchup/Riven/Darius/Top but obviously he isn't completely destroyed by her considering his win rate vs her is 49.46%, barely under half.

Asayake 5150glowJan 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T22:58:13.405+0000)

i didn't say she rushed you with a shield+stun, i said: -she rushed you -she has a shield and a stun

there is no point to E out you win in 1v1 against darius, no reason to get out

But she doesn't?

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

I see you like Darius. Newsflash. Nobody likes Darius either. He gets less complaints only because he has always been less popular. But otherwise he is considered generally toxic. Plus he is very overtuned at this time. :)

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Well the top players out there are letting Darius get a 58% win rate with more plays than Riven. So it obviously isn't easy to beat him.

PermabannedGarenJan 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS TO DODGE THE Q. how many braincells does it take to dodge his main dmg source. good lord.. And ofc they will lsoe to fkn darius. Darius outscales Riven easily post 1st buy. and one mistake makes or loses this lane it's a SKILL MATCH UP something meta abusing players lack severly.

Darius doesn't need his Q to kill people early game. There's a reason good Darius players start W early game. I don't know how people were dumb enough to be fooled by the myth that Darius doesn't do damage if he misses his Q in the laning phase. Against melee champions who have to be hit by his auto attacks if they want to farm, the W is enough. The Q is just a bonus, and is essentially undodgeable if a good Darius manages to grab you, since it bounces you just far enough to be hit by the edge of his Q. Without a mobility skill you're going to be hit.

Who are you accusing of being meta abusing players? Riven players? Lol, Darius is the big meta top laner right now. Riven is still just a champion predominately played by dedicated mains.

Oh, and it's not a skill match-up. Kit-wise, Riven just beats Darius. Has pretty much consistently since he was reworked.

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

I see a very smart man. :) also I like your name. I wish Garen was more Viable. Maybe I should post a shitty Garen rework to the boards.

Asayake 5150glowJan 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Darius doesn't need his Q to kill people early game. There's a reason good Darius players start W early game. I don't know how people were dumb enough to be fooled by the myth that Darius doesn't do damage if he misses his Q in the laning phase. Against melee champions who have to be hit by his auto attacks if they want to farm, the W is enough. The Q is just a bonus, and is essentially undodgeable if a good Darius manages to grab you, since it bounces you just far enough to be hit by the edge of his Q. Without a mobility skill you're going to be hit.

Who are you accusing of being meta abusing players? Riven players? Lol, Darius is the big meta top laner right now. Riven is still just a champion predominately played by dedicated mains.

Oh, and it's not a skill match-up. Kit-wise, Riven just beats Darius. Has pretty much consistently since he was reworked.

Darius has 2 main threats - passive and Q blade.

Thing is, some people think that you should E+Auto+W+Q with Darius, which is why they miss their Q.

Riven only beats Darius if she is skilled enough, and Darius's E will fuck 1) any Riven without Stormraiders 2) Any Riven who didn't save enough dashes to get out.

EedatJan 20, 20172 votes

This is bad data. This only uses data from a select few people, not all of challenger. Furthermore its data from ALL pro players, even if they dont even play Riven a lot. A few challenger Riven one-tricks that arent included in that data just off the top of my head are Adrian Riven and viper.

Not saying Riven is OP or the other ones aren't, but using bad data doesnt prove your point lol

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

These are the pro players. One tricks always boost a champions win rate. For example a Garen one trick might hit 62% win rate on Garen even if generally he does bad. :)

RalanrJan 20, 20171 votes

Why are people suddenly defending Riven? Has there been a recent crusade against Riven?

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Just dispelling some myths. Riven does not perform particularly "OP" in high tiers of play, because most people master her by ~diamond, which is why she does well there. But by master and challenger tier people know how to play around her quite easily.

RalanrJan 20, 20171 votes

Master and challenger players know how to play around everyone. That's how they got there.

Honestly Riven is just annoying. Not broken or OP.

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

I know she is annoying. ^_^ and it is fair for people to hate Riven, I hate Fizz and Tryndamere. But annoying is a separate issue from OP or badly designed. Honestly, players who play Linear champions that rely on numerical advantage will always hate champions who rely on outplays. And vice versa. It is almost like in MMORPG games how people who pvp often hate pve players and vice versa. But I like both :)

RalanrJan 20, 20171 votes

So like how I play tanks?

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Well I like tanks. Sejauni is my favorite tank. I use to say I liked Darius as a tank but I was told he isn't a tank. x)

JmmanJan 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-20T20:51:44.188+0000)

Okay, let us talk 'top players', as if that matters to 99% of players. Probuilds is the source of data for professional players in master and challenger tier soloQ.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Jayce 59%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Kennen 52%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Gangplank 56%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Darius 58%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Camille 63%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Irelia 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Yasuo 50%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Nautilus 55%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Poppy 57%

Hmm... it almost looks like for top players, the best, that Riven and Yasuo are hovering at a nice, fair win rate compared to actual meta monsters like Jayce, Camille and Poppy.

If you are going to complain about Riven doing too well, please don't use top tier players as an example. You'll notice they never complain about her. She is a little too strong in Diamond and somewhat in low masters. She has low win rates below that and fair win rates above that.

To be fair you need to put the % pick or games played with it. Because if someone only has 20 games and at 57% and someone has 1000 games at 53% I would say the 57% win was because of mains and counter picks. SO in that way the 53% might be totally op and the 57% not. (example 1500 total games)

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Riven's pick rate at this tier is .7%. I linked source pages. But a good catch thank you for pointing this out. :)

JmmanJan 23, 20171 votes

Then it should be easy to see if this "abuse" cause your rise or skill... Can't wait till the fix.

GigglesOJan 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-20T20:51:44.188+0000)

Okay, let us talk 'top players', as if that matters to 99% of players. Probuilds is the source of data for professional players in master and challenger tier soloQ.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Riven 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Jayce 59%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Kennen 52%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Gangplank 56%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Darius 58%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Camille 63%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Irelia 51%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Yasuo 50%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Nautilus 55%

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Poppy 57%

Hmm... it almost looks like for top players, the best, that Riven and Yasuo are hovering at a nice, fair win rate compared to actual meta monsters like Jayce, Camille and Poppy.

If you are going to complain about Riven doing too well, please don't use top tier players as an example. You'll notice they never complain about her. She is a little too strong in Diamond and somewhat in low masters. She has low win rates below that and fair win rates above that.

I vote we nerf all of them...

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Champions between 49-51% tend to be in a fair spot and do not require tuning unless meta changes and boosts their win rates. :)

GigglesOJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-01-20T21:56:21.542+0000)

Champions between 49-51% tend to be in a fair spot and do not require tuning unless meta changes and boosts their win rates. :)

That didn't stop them from nerfing morde with rylis and then not giving compensation... so yea... I still vote nerf them all.

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

More salt than McDonalds. Morde's design is unhealthy. Even Malicious Metal admits that. Buffing him most be done carefully because Riot flunked his rework. :)

GigglesOJan 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E6YsVIcN,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T22:26:07.229+0000)

More salt than McDonalds. Morde's design is unhealthy. Even Malicious Metal admits that. Buffing him most be done carefully because Riot flunked his rework. :)

Yea, and riven has been bugged since release with attack animation canceling that was never intended.

Arya RivenJan 20, 20171 votes

Riven has been rebalanced around animation canceling jist as ADCs were rebalanced around canceling the animation of AAs and mages were rebalanced around canceling the end of some spell animations. :)

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