This Vayne change is an Insult to Vayne players

52409615_DEL··8 votes·3,587 views

Honestly, i feel insulted. What ever, it's a video game, but when you dedicate 930k close to 1 million mastery points worth of time to a specific champ Vayne and you wake up one day and Riot decides to make your champion unviable, then all your hard work meant nothing and perfecting my craft was a huge waste of time.

I'm not claiming to be the next Gosu, also because i wouldn't even call him a good Vayne player, because if you look up IMP, Gosu, Dlift, PRAY, they are all known for "playing vayne" except if you check, none of them even play vayne anymore, and when they do, it's on a smurf account to look better than they are. Just check the match histories, Gosu just plays Ezreal on his main now, Dlift openly stated he quit Vayne because she doesn't win games - in his words, IMP played vayne last 2 weaks a go once, and went 5/11 and prior to that played her once more a month a go, he is mostly playing Sivir and Jhin. Pray doesn't seem to even play Vayne? I'm actually starting to think that all these people are a huge show when it comes to actually making Vayne work, they use to be good, but they know she is utterly weak this season so no one plays her. (Someone decided to complain here and say gosu still plays vayne because of his match history, well http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23557909#ranked-stats as you can see he is in Diamond 3 stuck there for the first season ever.... he has made challenger the seasons prior, he is also rocking the worst win-rate with Vayne in his entire career, 50% compared to 59% and 58% of prior prior seasons, he is also switching it up with Ezreal way more often. I guess it's not fair to say he is NOT PLAYING HER, but definitely much less and sucking.)

Regardless, i know i'm not the best player in the world, but last season i was on my way to plat with huge winstreaks, as soon as preseason rolled up vayne got her W reworked and went to shit, then bork started costing 3400g instead of 2800, then they nerffed SS+cannon proc, Then they nerffed Guinsu, then Youmus, then Ferv, and we have waited since the beggining of the season for a real buff...and this is what we get, it's not a buff it's basically a bug fix as far as im concerned. honestly i'm quitting league of legends. You know why? it's not just because the champ i main is unviable, it's because of the direction the game is moving in, the game has become more team reliant than ever and caries don't carry anymore, this is also why you don't have people known for playing a specific champ anymore, you don't have the one trick ponies, most of them are quitting the game, along with content creators or just simply switching mains and playing what is OP.

with 100k mastery on Vayne i climbed from bronze 5 to gold and was heading to plat, then all this happened and since then i have dedicated another 830K mastery points to her, insane right? what's more insane, how stuck i am in silver no matter how much i play, because i cary one game and the next im the only one positive, that use to not be a problem but now even the support can solo me! I'm not even kidding i'm getting out damaged by every support in lane and the "late game" dream doesn't exist because of the meta...The game has become 100% team reliant to the poitn where i feel like individual skill doesn't matter, hints why pros play with premades and have their own solo Q basically, also explains why no one is playing on their mains and you have so many smurfs in silver it's insane, also explain why every content creator is quitting...it's not because Overwatch is that good of a game, it's because League just really sucks right now and brain dead champions do better than the ones that take legit skill, so i started playing Jhin Jhin and no shit, i win way more often with barely no practice in ranked...It's insulting, i'm really done, the balance is way to bad and some champions just get left in the dark for to long.

98 Comments

sheldonbunny5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-26T19:45:33.205+0000)

I'm not claiming to be the next Gosu, also because i wouldn't even call him a good Vayne player, because if you look up IMP, Gosu, Dlift, PRAY, they are all known for "playing vayne" expect if you check, none of them even play vayne anymore, and when they do, it's on a smurf account to look better than they are. Just check the match histories, Gosu just plays Ezreal on his main now

http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/hiimgosu/

Someone is terrible at fact checking. Stopped reading the moment you invalidated yourself.

52409615_DEL2 votes

He is still the one that forces him self to play her the most, here is his winrate this season with her lolking Vayne 93 90 50.8% 7.4/game 6/game 5.5/game 198/game compared to last season it's about a 9% win rate differece at close to 59% and the season before too, 58%...he has to play Vayne because he is a show man, that's what he is known for, i'm just saying he has been doing poorly with her and switching it up much more often than any season, check the lolking http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23557909#ranked-stats and this is not to mention the fact that he is dimond 3 now...the guy was chellenger every season prior, do you think it's a coincidence?

sheldonbunny3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-07-26T20:27:05.752+0000)

He is still the one that forces him self to play her the most, here is his winrate this season with her lolking Vayne 93 90 50.8% 7.4/game 6/game 5.5/game 198/game compared to last season it's about a 9% win rate differece at close to 59% and the season before too, 58%...he has to play Vayne because he is a show man, that's what he is known for, i'm just saying he has been doing poorly with her and switching it up much more often than any season, check the lolking http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23557909#ranked-stats and this is not to mention the fact that he is dimond 3 now...the guy was chellenger every season prior, do you think it's a coincidence?

I'm simply calling you out on being incorrect on your statement. Could care less about anything else, but carry on debating with the others. Just try being accurate next time. A good debate is based on having all the facts.

52409615_DEL1 votes

Everyone is just trying to look smart all the time, holy shit the boards are annoying. There, i updated the post just so you feel happy inside, the point is still the same, the guy now sucks at vayne.

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T20:38:25.558+0000)

Everyone is just trying to look smart all the time, holy shit the boards are annoying. There, i updated the post just so you feel happy inside, the point is still the same, the guy now sucks at vayne.

Could care less about being smart. I just believe if you're going to debate something you do it right. You seem awfully defensive. Need a hug? Or a cookie?

52409615_DEL1 votes

A Vayne buff lmao

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T20:47:30.974+0000)

A Vayne buff lmao

You sure talk big for someone who could only crawl up to gold 5 last season for your highest rank on that account. If Gosu "sucks" where does that put you I wonder?

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Besides if you regularly watched Gosu you'd know he's pretty much fed up with League and hasn't even felt driven to climb, which is why he is constantly cycling through his accounts. He even recently made one specifically for playing other roles. Was interesting to watch him playing top.

A lot of high tier players lost the drive with how messed up dynamic queue has made things. I know it pretty much killed my drive to play in ranked.

52409615_DEL2 votes

Gosu climbed to his Elo when Vayne was viable, it's no coincidence that he is now unable to climb after resets. That's not to say i'm better, cause i'm not, i just think it's quite obvious why he is sick of league...Because he dedicates his career to playing a champ day and night, so he wakes up one day next season and Riot makes the tool that made him famous unviable, i would be depressed to in his shoes and want to quit much more than i do now.

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:05:59.383+0000)

Gosu climbed to his Elo when Vayne was viable, it's no coincidence that he is now unable to climb after resets. That's not to say i'm better, cause i'm not, i just think it's quite obvious why he is sick of league...Because he dedicates his career to playing a champ day and night, so he wakes up one day next season and Riot makes the tool that made him famous unviable, i would be depressed to in his shoes and want to quit much more than i do now.

That is equating his continual battle with real depression to such trivial lengths i'm astonished you can be that dense. Just stick to talking shop about the champion. You are terrible at talking about players.

Edit:

Oh look who just started casting right now and is queued up as Vayne. Fancy that.

52409615_DEL1 votes

Never said he doesn't have depression, never said that couldn't be part of the problem, i am how ever, looking at overall data from these players and concluding very easily that they have drastically dropped in winrates with vayne, drastically dropped her pick-rate with her and are at lower elo than ever. Gosu still streams Vayne, again he is a show man and has always been the Vayne main show man, the point was never that he doesn't smurf and play vayne on other accounts for show or picks her simply to please the audience, the point is that he has been much more successful with other champions like most Vayne mains are finding, i don't know why you need to turn this in to a personal attack to Gosu's mental health, i have the upmost respect for the guy and have looked up to him since the day i started to play vayne, the problem is he isn't even doing good with her anymore, nor is anyone, that is the entire point of this, not specifics, not criticism to the players at all, just observations.

Geshultz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:57:45.824+0000)

Never said he doesn't have depression, never said that couldn't be part of the problem, i am how ever, looking at overall data from these players and concluding very easily that they have drastically dropped in winrates with vayne, drastically dropped her pick-rate with her and are at lower elo than ever. Gosu still streams Vayne, again he is a show man and has always been the Vayne main show man, the point was never that he doesn't smurf and play vayne on other accounts for show or picks her simply to please the audience, the point is that he has been much more successful with other champions like most Vayne mains are finding, i don't know why you need to turn this in to a personal attack to Gosu's mental health, i have the upmost respect for the guy and have looked up to him since the day i started to play vayne, the problem is he isn't even doing good with her anymore, nor is anyone, that is the entire point of this, not specifics, not criticism to the players at all, just observations.

Having played Vayne a decent amount lvl 6 mastery+80k mastery points, honestly there is 0 reason to pick her over any other adc as she gets bullied out of lane so easily with any decent support + meta adc.

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:57:45.824+0000)

Never said he doesn't have depression, never said that couldn't be part of the problem, i am how ever, looking at overall data from these players and concluding very easily that they have drastically dropped in winrates with vayne, drastically dropped her pick-rate with her and are at lower elo than ever. Gosu still streams Vayne, again he is a show man and has always been the Vayne main show man, the point was never that he doesn't smurf and play vayne on other accounts for show or picks her simply to please the audience, the point is that he has been much more successful with other champions like most Vayne mains are finding, i don't know why you need to turn this in to a personal attack to Gosu's mental health, i have the upmost respect for the guy and have looked up to him since the day i started to play vayne, the problem is he isn't even doing good with her anymore, nor is anyone, that is the entire point of this, not specifics, not criticism to the players at all, just observations.

Then you had a really poor way of going about it. Learn to phrase things better. Another lesson to learn besides fact checking. You are the one that brought it up and made yourself sound callous. I just don't put up with that sort of thing. You in no way were talking "respectful" about him so far, so keep backpedaling if you must. Whatever makes you feel better.

And you still haven't fixed your error up there. Two accounts in Diamond 2. If you're going to bother adding in that edit may as well be accurate. :P

Every adc in the game has moments of strengths and weaknesses. Vayne has already had her strong point this season. It'll cycle around again like it always does. Either stick with a champion like a real main, or move onto whatever FotM is out there.

52409615_DEL1 votes

honest question, are you getting off on this...? You just seem to be going out of your way to be an ass now. And i was looking for the account you mentioned, i was unable to find it thus far and was going to change it when/if i did, now i'm definitely not because you seem to be getting some sort of odd pleasure out of this, it really feels like you are having a bad day and felt like getting in an argument lol. How am i backpedaling on anything? I don't think it's unfair of me to look at his stats and account and conclude that he is doing much worse this season at her, than i have ever seen, you just seem overly buthurt for no reason. when i look at his stats and others who are known for playing the champ and i find that all are doing drastically worse, i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that there is a problem.

Geshultz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-26T22:24:52.384+0000)

honest question, are you getting off on this...? You just seem to be going out of your way to be an ass now. And i was looking for the account you mentioned, i was unable to find it thus far and was going to change it when/if i did, now i'm definitely not because you seem to be getting some sort of odd pleasure out of this, it really feels like you are having a bad day and felt like getting in an argument lol. How am i backpedaling on anything? but i don't think it's unfair of me to look at his stats and account and conclude that he is doing much worse this season at her than i have ever seen, you just seem overly buthurt for no reason. when i look a his stats and others who are known for playing the champ and i find that all are doing drastically worse, i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that there is a problem.

Most people underrate utility and waveclear on any adc which is highly important to have any viability in pro play of having some form of waveclear in their kite or high utility or poke outside their autos.

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000500000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-26T22:24:52.384+0000)

honest question, are you getting off on this...? You just seem to be going out of your way to be an ass now. And i was looking for the account you mentioned, i was unable to find it thus far and was going to change it when/if i did, now i'm definitely not because you seem to be getting some sort of odd pleasure out of this, it really feels like you are having a bad day and felt like getting in an argument lol. How am i backpedaling on anything? I don't think it's unfair of me to look at his stats and account and conclude that he is doing much worse this season at her, than i have ever seen, you just seem overly buthurt for no reason. when i look a his stats and others who are known for playing the champ and i find that all are doing drastically worse, i don't think it's unreasonable to point out that there is a problem.

http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/GUCKFOSU/

http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/alenamorgan/

You can verify the accounts by looking on the FAQ on his twitch stream page if you like.

I'm not getting off on anything. Also not being an ass. If you're taking it that way that's simply your perception. My mood's been neutral this entire time. You seem to be veering off in odd directions here. My day's been any old regular day and this most definitely is not me arguing.

The backpedaling was over the callous use of depression when discussing him when he publicly has struggled with depression to the point of declaring a planned suicide attempt during a drunk cast. As for butthurt, it seems to describe you far more than I. I've had no emotional reaction this entire conversation. Emotional investment is typically toward people that matter to a person, and forgive me, but a stranger on the internet merits little investment on my part.

This is simply a calm discussion where i've had you correct and clarify several things.

It appears you're tilting at windmills. Just a calm conversation here. No reason to think otherwise.

52409615_DEL1 votes

It definitely appears to me that you're going out of you're way to be a complete asshole, but maybe i am in the wrong and am misinterpreting you, i do think that wanting to correct diamond 3 to 2 doesn't add much to the discussion, just makes it seem like you are finding beef in small things that don't change the main point, how ever, I checked the accounts, you are correct that they are both in diamond 2 which is odd considering that the account he has way more games on, the one i thought was his main, is diamond 3 http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/23557909#ranked-stats

http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/alenamorgan/ - Alena Morgan, Vayne 11 wins. 15 losses 42.3% rate. This winrate is very negative, not typical of Gosu to suck at vayne but what's even more interesting is that he has a 68.8% winrate on Ezreal on the same account.

http://quickfind.kassad.in/profile/na/GUCKFOSU/ - This one i know of, it's the one i see him play on. It's also diamond 2 vs the challenger of last season, but he has better winrate - Vayne 21 18 53.8%. So this one is better, granted that 39 games is not that many games compared to his other acc diamond 3 50.8% winrate with 180+ ranked vayne games.

this: -"he backpedaling was over the callous use of depression " my point here was that as you can see, Gosu has achieved challenger in previous seasons in those accounts, this makes it so he is not reset to bronze. I can see where you linked the depression part, i was trying to think what i could have said to even suggest that idea, i see it now, i said " Gosu climbed to his Elo when Vayne was viable, it's no coincidence that he is now unable to climb after resets. i just think it's quite obvious why he is sick of league...i would be depressed to in his shoes and want to quit much more than i do now."

So it was the use of the word "depressed" in a different context, i should have used a different word, but the point wasn't to say "he is depressed cause he doing bad" no....Sorry that came off that way, it was replying to you saying "He is pretty much "fed up with league" so i said, if i woke up one day and the character that literally made my career was nerfed to the point of being semi-unviable, i would be SAD to, fed up with league (here is where i should not have used "depressed", this was indeed bad wording).

My point is not to bash Gosu, the individual is more skilled than me by miles, but when i'm taking a look at vayne's situation i have to look at Gosu, he is just one of the best, and i don't think his condition excludes him from being looked up, i'm not here to measure his skill, sorry if that's how it came off, i'm looking for data on vayne coming from the best possible players...and the data i'm looking at, repeatedly tells me the champion is at a very weak spot right now, why? because all players who main her have taken huge hits to their ranks and winrates this season in a way i have never seen before, and i think that most of them are avoiding playing her as often so they don't drop ranks, this is why i'm seeing a much broader champ pool and less games played on Vayne.

sheldonbunny1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=00050000000000000000000000000000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-26T23:18:49.637+0000)

It definitely appears to me that you're going out of you're way to be a complete asshole, but maybe i am in the wrong and am misinterpreting you.

So it was the use of the word "depressed" in a different context, i should have used a different word, but the point wasn't to say "he is depressed cause he doing bad" no....Sorry that came off that way, it was replying to you saying "He is pretty much "fed up with league" so i said, if i woke up one day and the character that literally made my career was nerfed to the point of being semi-unviable, i would be SAD to, fed up with league (here is where i should not have used "depressed").

My point is not to bash Gosu, the individual is more skilled than me by miles, but when i'm taking a look at vayne's situation i have to look at Gosu, he is just one of the best, and i don't think his condition excludes him from being looked up, i'm not here to measure his skill, sorry if that's how it came off, i'm looking for data on vayne coming from the best possible players...and the data i'm looking at, repeatedly tells me the champions is at a very weak spot right now, why? because all players who main her have taken huge hits to their ranks and winrates this season in a way i have never seen before, and i think that most of them are avoiding playing her as often so they don't drop ranks, this is why i'm seeing a much broader champ pool and less games played on Vayne.

Without tone of voice, body language, etc it isn't always easy to interpret a person's intentions with plain text. I'm a sarcastic, tongue in cheek sort. I'm also a very self depreciating person so by no means do I get off scott free.

As for Gosu and Vayne, watch his stream regularly and he states she's been weak for a long while. He also calls himself washed up nearly daily. He honestly emphasizes a lot of the problem with dynamic queue, as have other higher tier players. Some only really play it for casting purposes, but that's an entirely different issue/topic that I have no interest in debating.

As I said, all the champions go through cycles of strengths and weaknesses. I'm a support main and my main Sona has become FotM, much to my annoyance. Once Riot finishes tweaking her, likely to the point she's in a worse state than she started at before the update, i'll still be playing her. Same way Boxbox does Riven, or Trick does Udyr. I play my mains because I love the champion, not because they're currently strong in the meta. Heaven forbid if Galio ever got popular. :P

Just be patient, she'll come around strong again. In the meantime, either find the most viable build to help her weaknesses, or if you're willing, branch out like the other Vayne players you've mentioned. I'm a Sona main, but i'm also a support main. I deeply enjoy playing many supports, just that Sona has that special place in my heart.

Mistress Shyvana3 votes

{quoted}

I'm simply calling you out on being incorrect on your statement. Could care less about anything else, but carry on debating with the others. Just try being accurate next time. A good debate is based on having all the facts.

Savage.

sheldonbunny3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mistress Shyvana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:36:35.420+0000)

Savage.

Speaking of my savagery, OP's update is still incorrect. Gosu's highest account listed is Diamond 2 not 3. Might want to update that again, Satori.

http://res.cloudinary.com/urbandictionary/image/upload/a_exif,c_fit,h_200,w_200/v1395991705/gjn81wvxqsq6yzcwubok.png

Hyperiön2 votes

Didn't vayne get Buffed? I mean, her Q now procs on turrets and structures. So what if you miss out on a half crit. Get enough crit anyways and it won't matter.

Kaioko2 votes

{quoted}

Didn't vayne get Buffed? I mean, her Q now procs on turrets and structures. So what if you miss out on a half crit. Get enough crit anyways and it won't matter.

OP is right the buff hardly actually does anything to fix her. They were considering boosting her range but that got reversed.

Hyperiön1 votes

Idk, a fed vayne who actually is good, is like yasuo, no one wants to play with him because of his cancerous kit. When I saw that she got a buff I was kind of upset, but knowing it doesnt affect her teamfight potential, not an issue. The build I put above has everything you would want, just swap out the RB if you can afford too. I think thats a solid build for her considering what Satori mentioned.

52409615_DEL2 votes

You know what though, after 930k mastery on a champ my skill should show though, at one point i was most Vayne played NA and 3rd in the world, yes i'm not Gosu, but i should be seeing results. This is frustrating, because other players play brain dead tank engage champions, the entire game has to suffer in balance.

Ralanr3 votes

You know, maybe if we all stopped calling each other's champions brain dead and tried respecting the strengths and weaknesses of every champ, then maybe there wouldn't be so much animosity.

This community probably wouldn't allow that though.

52409615_DEL2 votes

The difference is the level of mechanical skill involved in cancelling every single animation and orb walking to deal your max dmg vs pressing R and getting a kill or an AOE CC that wins a teamfight...that's my problem with this game.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T20:17:18.395+0000)

The difference is the level of mechanical skill involved in cancelling every single animation and orb walking to deal your max dmg vs pressing R and getting a kill or an AOE CC that wins a teamfight...that's my problem with this game.

Vayne isn't even hard to play, wtf are you on. Cancelling every animation and orb walking is a piece of cake, to go so far as to say that she's hard to play because of it? Come on.

Mistress Shyvana1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne isn't even hard to play, wtf are you on. Cancelling every animation and orb walking is a piece of cake, to go so far as to say that she's hard to play because of it? Come on.

What's orb walking.

sheldonbunny3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mistress Shyvana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:30:37.504+0000)

What's orb walking.

http://team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/League-of-Legends/1816/League-of-Legends-Orb-Walking

52409615_DEL1 votes

It's when you kite and repeatedly cancel animations, it creates a "turning" effect much like the heroes in Dota do, so it involves the right timing of canceling and letting the auto complete the dmg before canceling it again and moving to then repeat.

Mistress Shyvana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000100010001,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:36:47.335+0000)

It's when you kite and repeatedly cancel animations, it creates a "turning" effect much like the heroes in Dota do, so it involves the right timing of canceling and letting the auto complete the dmg before canceling it again and moving to then repeat.

Thanks. Im slightly less not good at adc now.

(I said it like that on purpose. Don't rip me apart xD)

Hyperiön1 votes

True, but I also feel that a lot of it depends on the team you are up against. I am pretty sure you are confident on every matchup bot lane, or for the most part. But instead of OTP, look at their engage to see what it is, if they have super hard CC, I wouldn't want to play vayne because of her range, and how easy it is to die. I would go with like Cait or something.

I am sure you know this already, but incase you forgot xD

52409615_DEL1 votes

I wish the game had less of a rock-paper-scissors element and more of a skill by champ element....counters are fine, but the game is constantly restricting how you can do well, by holding your potential to the imaginary late game, or X champ counter Y champs...Remember seasons 1-2? People could get so good with 1 champion counters did not matter so much, i wish that the game still had that more skill reliant aspect than anything else regardless of counters or late game.

Hyperiön1 votes

I only started in season 3, but thats pretty much how it was in that season too. Season 4 was when they started messing with things, and things got unbalanced since then. I still remember season 4 Khaxiz vs Rengar. That was the most fun I honestly ever had in league. Getting the 4th evolve. Ah the good old days.

52409615_DEL1 votes

[deleted]

Hyperiön2 votes

The biggest thing that I miss is the community. It used to be awesome at the end game, everyone would congrats the enemy, call out nice plays over all chat, and would give advice. Now, everything is so toxic. I am forced to almost mute everyone now.

52409615_DEL1 votes

because you can't really tell who is doing well and who is not anymore, it all comes down to 1 team fight mid that gets decided by a Malp Malphite ult, apparently this = skill in this game. what do i know.

sheldonbunny2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=0000000100000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T22:12:24.643+0000)

because you can't really tell who is doing well and who is not anymore, it all comes down to 1 team fight mid that gets decided by a Malp Malphite ult, apparently this = skill in this game. what do i know.

I'd hope you at least know not to group close enough to get hit with the ult along with the rest of your team, but that's just me.

Ralanr2 votes

If you were bunched to lose a game to a Malphite ult, then that is your fault.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-26T20:22:49.658+0000)

I wish the game had less of a rock-paper-scissors element and more of a skill by champ element

you realize this would warrant a total rework for vayne?

nothing, not a single ability in her kit has counterplay or can be played around. everything she has is static stat boosts and ranged on target abilities. that means you can either stat check her and win, or you cant.

the only way to beat vayne right now is to counterpick her, not to counterplay her. if you want a more skill based latgeame that would mean making her kit less reliable.

52409615_DEL3 votes

"The only way to beat Vayne now is coutnerpick her" ...what....? bro you need to look at the winrates of the people who are actually known for playing vayne and realize they are stuck at lower elo than usual rocking the worst winrates of their careers with her, it's not coincidence it's data.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=00000001000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2016-07-26T21:00:22.449+0000)

"The only way to beat Vayne now is coutnerpick her" ...what....? bro you need to look at the winrates of the people who are actually known for playing vayne and realize they are stuck at lower elo than usual rocking the worst winrates of their careers with her, it's not coincidence it's data.

a skill based matchup would mean if a champion had mechanics in his kit that both the player and his opponent can play around.

skillshots, abilities like yasuos windwall that you can move around and attack from another angle, mechanics like fioras passive that play around positioning, trying to attack/protect the vitals, zacs blobs that can be collected for sustain or destroyed by his opponent to deny him health. even garen who has otherwise a reliable kit has his spin as his main damage source that plays around positioning, and its cooldown.

which ability does vayne have that isnt 100% reliable?

this is why lategame vayne can only be beaten by specific champions, not by mechanics or skill.

you either have the champion to fight her or you dont. you cant itemize against her, you cant outplay her kit.

someone like jax might still be able to beat her lategame, but only because he has the right combination of on target damage, mobility, the ability to negate her auto attacks, and some hard cc (which doesnt matter much, because vayne has mercurial in that case).

counterpicks, but no counterplay.

52409615_DEL3 votes

Her entire play stile is unreliable and i'll explain why, but first let me say you made a better point here than i thought at first so i'll get in to it, because you do have a valid point. Yes Vayne's kit is reliable for the most part when it comes to "landing your stuff", that is if we don't consider her E (condemn) that even players with vast amounts of games will mess up at times and not hit the opponent against the wall or proc enough dmg for the 3rd bolt. What makes vayne playstile extremely unreliable? it's called the "all or nothing" for a reason, she has the weakest lane phase of all adc's officially now, i use to be able to at least beat Jinx, but now she deals more in lane too.

The idea with vayne is a huge gamble, you sacrifice being of any use early in the game to scale in to OP late game, this means you rely 80-90% on your team to not feed or carry until way in to the game, making it a complete coin toss, either the team fed to hard and you guys lose the mid-game power spike or they did ok and you get to scale...every game feels like a gamble. The kit it self, her range is fairly short, doesn't deal much damage until at-least 3-4 items in, her ult+stealth is a second long....sure it's great, but literally the entire kit is designed around a 1sec invis outplay..i mean....that's not to reliable. This stealth ability is Vaynes Only escape, tumble is a dodge and maybe a gapcloser, but nothing like a corki/tris escape. Because she is a slippery champion due to her Q, and i say that with hezitation when thinking of a few champs like fizz/zed/Leblanc/Kass etc etc etc, who are WAY more slippery, but she is a bit hard to get, and as a consequence she is a glass cannon that gets deleted by everything all the time, and has to get really close in teamfights to deal any dmg, putting her in constant danger, unlike say Jinx or jhin who do have skill shots and no escapes, but have way more range and the ability to snipe cross map, so they get to show damage in teamfights more easily. Yes vayne is still a great 1v1 duelist vs other adc's provided she doesn't get snowballed in lane, but that's about it...she has no push/wave clear, her build paths don't match the kit and currently involve either bork = super weak early or Zeal --> IE which is the all or nothing build with no life steal aside from blood lust. The champion is just extremely unreliable and i realize it's somewhat of a delicate situation to balance her, but i think it needs done even if it means nerfing late game but buffing early a tad, it's just insulting to get soloed by supports. and this late game dream never happens by the way, games are done 2-3 items in.

Geshultz2 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC

Looking at her matchups in patch 6.14 she loses to most match ups. Heck ashe she has a 44% winrate against facing ashe... Jhin with 46% winrate is how bad she is against meta adcs who are immobile and suck at dueling. Showing how powerful utility and waveclear of these adcs are and the poke are. And both those adcs have 20% pickrates and 53%+ winrates in plat+ games. Heck with the changes to botlane tower being squisher early on and giving more gold will drop vayne's winrate even with the "buff"

52409615_DEL1 votes

People don't want to look at the obvious, all they care about is if the champs they play are fine, every thing else is fine to. Look through comments and you will see that the people who don't see what you are saying NEVER play vayne in ranked and when they do it's a negative winrate.

Geshultz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-07-26T22:37:55.316+0000)

People don't want to look at the obvious, all they care about is if the champs they play are fine, every thing else is fine to. Look though comments and you will see that the people who don't see what you are saying NEVER play vayne in ranked and when they do it's a negative winrate.

Yup and basically now this patch will have vayne average winrate drop to 47% with the tower changes botlane since for some reason they decided that botlane should have weaker towers early and more gold for taking tower earlier making waveclear even more valuable. Making being pushed to tower even worst, or even worst losing your tower within 10 minutes making it harder for vayne to come back into the game when the enemy team gets a free 275 gold local+ 25 global gold worth + the base 300 local gold+ 100 global gold

52409615_DEL1 votes

A big problem for me has been early 4-5 man ganks/TP pre 6 or early in the game, this will just make that happen more often giving yet another advantage to early game adc's and incentivating the jg visits bot more often.

Geshultz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Satori The Mist ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E56XRtNX,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T22:47:39.532+0000)

A big problem for me has been early 4-5 man ganks/TP pre 6 or early in the game, this will just make that happen more often giving yet another advantage to early game adc's

Yup and vayne basically is way to weak early game for such a medicore lategame when you look at other meta adcs lategames, and compare how good their laning phase is. Ashe has high utlity+ Aoe dps. Jhin can jus get armor pen build that doesn't fall off. On top of his ability to pick people off with his ult+ snare from 1000+ range While ashe has a decent laning phase 600 auto attack range+ constant poke from her w to trade or bully people in lane or jhin who basically can push the wave more efficiently then most adcs well also having his 4th auto attack be strong in short burst trades. The problem is that vayne's lategame has been brought down compared to other adcs who got stronger lategames through the marksmen reworks. Example caitlyn being really good early and lategame with a weak mid game that can be made up for by the laning phase lead.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

you've been around long enough to get 1M mastery and you don't know why they are changing vayne?

go read riots design values

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

Geshultz2 votes

Main problem with vayne for such a high skilled champion to only have a postive winrate of 50.9% with 125+ games played at a plat level last patch shows that she is 2.1% below average winrate for people with 125+ games played. Its the fact that the meta adcs atm are way to powerful early game,mid game and lategame compared to most other adcs. This problem extends to champions like draven as well. http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=ADC&sortBy=general.experience&order=descend

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