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@ Meddler, clarification about the 'Fighter Update'

SpecterVonBaren··5 votes·4,598 views

I know that we're still a long ways off from this rework but I was wondering just how many champions you intend to tackle when it comes around. The main thing I'm curious about is which KIND of fighter will be reworked if the scope will be on the level of the mage and assassin update since there'd be no way to touch both types (That I'm thinking of anyway) since there'd be so many.

What I mean by this, there are two types of fighters, there are the fighters that are auto attack based and all about carrying with their damage.

Aatrox Irelia Jax Shyvana Tryndamere XinZhaoMasterYi Yasuo

And there are diving fighters that are more about a burst rotation of spells and tend to be more team oriented whether through utility, initiation or by being a wall of meat and damage the enemy can't ignore.

Trundle LeeSin Renekton JarvanIVPantheon Kled MonkeyKing Yorick Vi Rumble

The two types, while both being fighters, itemize very differently and their roles in the game are very different. One favors things like crit, lifesteal, attack speed, and on hit items while the other prefers raw AD, armor pen (Soon to be lethality) CDR and some tank items.

Not only does tuning both types just based on their kits require a different thought process but so does tuning itemization. Placing both types in the fighter update would require looking into pretty much every item used by AD based champs. It would be the size of TWO class updates in one if it included both types.

So coming back around to my point, how does Riot plan to handle such a large scope update? How do you plan on keeping a whole team working on the change required for something like this in sync with each other, especially in terms of itemization?

29 Comments

Anonagon10 votes

I think you need to read both of these: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

The kind of fighter they're looking at is the "diving fighter" subclass. Which means the following champions are going to be looked at:

Vi XinZhao Nocturne Pantheon JarvanIV MonkeyKing Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim LeeSin Irelia Aatrox Evelynn Diana

A full VGU for Warwick will likely be released before the Diver update happens, and you shouldn't expect major reworks for Evelynn or Irelia in the update because they are also slotted for full VGUs (though just like Akali and Shaco in the Assassin update, you might see smaller work on them)

This update would likely happen around mid-season 7, unless Riot decides to look at Vanguard Tanks before they look at Divers, in which case it'd probably be a little later

RiotMeddler8 votes

Anonagon sums up our current thinking pretty well. If we were to do a fighter update we'd want to focus on divers as the class most in need of distinction and game health work. Vanguards are also the other class we think's in biggest need of work though, so very possible they might get an update first.

Anonagon1 votes

(by the way I still haven't forgiven you for feeding in my plat promos last season)

BakedLotion3 votes

{quoted}

(by the way I still haven't forgiven you for feeding in my plat promos last season)

shots fired

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

(by the way I still haven't forgiven you for feeding in my plat promos last season)

I STILL TELL PEOPLE THAT'S WHY I'M SCARED OF RIOTERS IN MY RANKED GAMES.

Kog And Balls1 votes

But what about Kog though?

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Anonagon sums up our current thinking pretty well. If we were to do a fighter update we'd want to focus on divers as the class most in need of distinction and game health work. Vanguards are also the other class we think's in biggest need of work though, so very possible they might get an update first.

[Tank main intensifies]

Anonagon3 votes

waiting for amumu sej zac and gragas not to have nearly identical kits to each other

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

meddler are skirmishers included. like Jax Xin and Yi? they need some work atm too outdated

Anonagon1 votes

Xin is considered a Diver, not a Skrimisher (though its entirely possible they decide that Skirmisher is more fitting for his character and decide to push him in that direction, I think that's a little out of the scope of a roster update tho)

Skirmishers are treated as a completely separate class from the diving fighters, and shouldn't be being updated with the diving fighter update. I wouldn't expect to see a Skrimisher roster update anytime soon either - aside from Yi and Tryndamere, none of them are really in need of major reworks, and most have relatively stable identities that are unique from each other.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

am pretty sure jax yi and tryndamere do the exact same thing have the same weaknesses and strengths.

Anonagon1 votes

Jax, Yi, and Tryndamere are the minority of the Skirmisher class. A roster update is needed when homogenization problems are widespread through an entire class, and when those problems can be solved by relatively small scale reworks. Tryndamere and Yi need reworks that are beyond the scale of a roster update.

I'd argue that Jax already has a unique identity in that he's a hybrid damage champion, though that identity isn't really played up all that well. He could use a rework to make him less linear and add to that unique identity he already has, but that's not something that needs to be part of any roster update.

TheSingularity1 votes

In terms of vanguards as a whole. How do you think you'd try and distinguish them from each other? As all of them have 2 things key to their identity, CC and beef. Thus there really isn't much breathing room to change this without shifting them into other classes (please delay vanguards if it comes to that)

While you can vary the cc, how it's applied and how it synergises with a kit.... there's only so much you can do before X=Z no matter how it's applied I fear we're going to see allot of gimmicky mini games or X hit passives to "distinguish" between individual vanguards.

. Just a suggestion on a mini game that isn't gimmicky, can be made easy to read for the enemy and be risk/reward in nature. Damage taken increases duration or perhaps in some cases the degree to which you cc someone.

Eg: malph holds onto his E until he's chunked to half hp, using it increases the atk speed slow debuff by X% based on the %hp lost (50%)

Based on %max hp, turns a slow into a snare then into a stun (ie sej E). Perhaps 100%>50%>30%.

.

I know vanguards are eons away but any insight would be awesome.

Ps. i feel naut is more of a warden than a vanguard (says vanguard on one of the class update lists) given his cc is better for peel than engage.

Spideraxe1 votes

What would be some design goals of the either update

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

But unlike updates like the Marksman update or the Mage update, there's a lot more variance between the divers in terms of itemization and role. Their issue is indeed that they tend to blur together due to lacking distinction between each other within their own purpose but someone like XinZhao has a much different purpose than MonkeyKing in terms of what their ultimate job is. Xin is a carry that scales well into late game while Wu is a teamfight disruptor and initiator and the items they build to accomplish these goals is often times very different.

I'm not saying I'm worried you won't succeed, I'm just curious how you intend to tackle the two distinct types of divers since there are so many.

And thank you for replying to my post by the way, it's much appreciated.

Talisid1 votes

I hope you don't change Vi too much. IMO she's one of the most balanced and fun champions in the game right now.

XxxLumberJackxxX2 votes

100% vanguard please

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

So if you're doing tanks, you'll do Vanguards?

I am Razgriz1 votes

Bring back Xin's "Take on the world" thematic. He doesn't need to literally 1v5. Just perform better in teamfights than he does now. I don't like how "melee carry" his kit is. I think that should be reserved for Aatrox, Yi, Tryndamere, Yasuo, and to a much lighter extent, Nocturne.

d4rkshock1 votes

Diana isn't actually a fighter. She's more of an assassin with all the burst damage.

Anonagon1 votes

Diana is Riot-defined as a diving fighter they have acknowledged that she is an assassin in practice, but they want her to be balanced around being a fighter in the future

LostFr0st2 votes

Tbh I think you're right it's 2 groups; they'd definitely do divers and slayers separately. They've hinted at wanting to do tanks next due to itemization problems between them and the other classes.

mr Boombastic7872 votes

The two subclasses of fighters is the divers like Vi, Aatrox and Jax and the juggernauts like Trundle, Darius and Illaoi. Divers are meant for jumping on the enemy's back line and using their sustained damage to take them down. The juggernaut are more like a brick wall that deals tons of damage and are very tanky, but they have next to no mobility and are easily kited.

Emojay1 votes

Still no VGU Evelynn Rip, my sweet Jungler. And may you one day get a good partial changing skin... (Bloodmoon, program, underworld PLS riot)

Electro5221 votes

Haven't they been saying that Irelia and Evelynn are very high on their list for VGUs? If anything, Eve may be on the list after Warwick, and if not, I can safely assume she'd be under way after Galio.

Though, I assume that depends if they find something interesting for Urgot.

d4rkshock1 votes

Galio us the next rework. He's clunky, sluggish, borring, and highly telegraphed with his visuals falling below the industry standard.

d4rkshock1 votes

We will see her in a year or 2

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

Riven is a fighter too, but she's also an assassin of sorts. Maybe change her subclass to assassin then? It just doesn't make sense that Riven wont get any changes in the near future. Changes that alter her abilities drastically or less, I don't care. Just give her some identity.

d4rkshock1 votes

Out of of all of these, shyvana needs one badly. The items determine how she's going to be played and if the items change, her play style can and will change. S2, she was a heavy invader. S5, she was a tank. Then she bacame a farm heavy 1v3 monster with sated devour. Now,everything is on hit. She fits both subclasses and is kind of a weird fighter. Same for aatrox minus the whole on hit part. Irellia and Pantheon will get full vgu's. tryndamere is a splitpush all game. Yi has always been one of those textbook pubstompers ever since "this game was in alpha"😉. Especially ap yi. Yasuo is in a good spot. Lee is also in a good spot. Aatrox from what I've heard is a bad champion. We will likely see aatrox and shyvana sice shyvana has stagnated from being an early season 2 champion who is dictated by the items in the game and aatrox sucks ass. As for the other 2-4 champions, I have no clue. I'd imagine yi and tryndamere getting changes since they are almost identical.

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