Instead of a Mana/CDR item, would a Health/CDR approach to Rylais be something worth exploring?

Malicious Metal·Oct 12, 2016·40 votes·2,043 views

Making it build out of and Giving something along the lines of 10% Cdr 500 HP 70 AP

Or would it be too similar to Protobelt?

96 Comments

MelledoneusOct 12, 201615 votes

Metal, pls. The front page does not need to be decorated with Rylai's threads like a Christmas tree... let's talk about llamas.

5000000000000000Oct 12, 20167 votes

Llamas' core build includes Rylai's

Sahn UzalOct 12, 201620 votes

http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-10-2014/lyZKNP.gif

Maybe Llamas dont want you to talk about them...

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20165 votes

Have you ever seen my Christmas tree decoration?!

Robert SmithOct 12, 20165 votes

https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5229903/il_fullxfull.296091262.jpg yes

Big LincolnOct 12, 201614 votes

malicious trying to get some CDR items for mordekaiser now

i see what you're planning

Malicious MetalOct 12, 201610 votes

Do you have a moment to talk about my 40% CDR Morde build? item 3116 item 3078 item 3065 item 3742 item 3053 + CDR blues

:^)

AirKingNeoOct 12, 20161 votes

Or you secretly play Kayle and want a CDR item she'd buy that she buys anyways.

LadyRenlyOct 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4Gpu3QN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-10-12T13:18:02.623+0000)

malicious trying to get some CDR items for mordekaiser now

i see what you're planning

ugh please no, Morde hits 40% naturally and can even overcap sometimes >_>

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20164 votes

What the hell are you building to get over 40% CDR? XD

LadyRenlyOct 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4Gpu3QN,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-10-12T18:20:12.325+0000)

What the hell are you building to get over 40% CDR? XD

uh, IIRC, Protobelt, Trinity FOrce, Spirit Visage that's 40% right off the bat. Sometimes I get Abyssal.

AhristocatsOct 12, 20168 votes

more hp, less ap?

Skarner Volibear Zac Jax Rammus would buy it

Meep ManOct 12, 20167 votes

I honestly see this as a better option than ranged permanent slows. Melee champions with Rylai's have the issue of being shorter ranged more often than not.

Sahn UzalOct 12, 20163 votes

Jax would prefer item 3022 still I think, because he gets a lot of AS, but has only 2 spells to apply a Rylais slow with, and those have pretty long CD's. Zac would buy it for sure though Rammus and Volibear and Skarner could buy it, but I doubt it would become core

AhristocatsOct 12, 20163 votes

that's why he would buy rylai, his great AS makes him slowing you permanently with third hit, and frozen mallet stats sucks and is overpriced.

Sahn UzalOct 12, 20163 votes

The third hit applies on hit effects, not spell effects. The only slows are coming from Q and E

5000000000000000Oct 12, 20161 votes

What about R? Multi target slows on AA seems pretty powerful.

Sahn UzalOct 12, 20162 votes

The third hit is his R passive...

AhristocatsOct 12, 20162 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Jax

Grandmaster's Might's passive is a permanent on-hit effect. Grandmaster's Might's active is a self-buff. Applies spell effects as a single target ability. Spell vamp is fully applied. Rylai's Crystal Scepter item.png Rylai's Crystal Scepter will apply a 40% Slow icon slow for 1.5 seconds.

Sahn UzalOct 12, 20163 votes

http://www.sbarro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/12-sbarro-spaghetti-meatballs.jpg

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20162 votes

Skarner's Q doesn't apply spell effects though Volibear would only really slow with his ultimate, which would be kinda cool Zac does build it occasionally already Jax I can't see really benefitting much from it

Besides, if a melee manages to get on top of you you're usually only a few seconds away from getting murdered anyways.

And even when Rylais was 80 AP and 500 HP most tanks didn't even build it

AhristocatsOct 12, 20163 votes

according to wiki, his Q procs spellvamp and rylai, i already tried with tidal and it works.

Malicious MetalOct 12, 201611 votes

I should be bloody ashamed of myself.

I main Skarner in the Jungle and didn't know that. FML

Still, I don't see it being a problem on these kinds of champions. They all need to be in melee range to slow anyways and Riot's aiming to nerf the slow anyways.

AhristocatsOct 12, 20165 votes

oh i didn't say it was a problem, it is definitly not a problem and working as intended, rylai should give utility to those who wants it and not high damage to burst mages.

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20165 votes

A lot of mages complain that they lack big damage items though.

Have you seen someone build both Ludens AND Rylais though?

AhristocatsOct 12, 20163 votes

Luden is terrible imo 82% gold effiency, and that's because riot nerfed the ap from 120 to 100 without any explinations, maybe they found that mages were doing too much damage.

but even if you buff luden, there will still be a problem. the problem isn't that mages lack big damage items, mid lane is pretty much mages right now ( Syndra Taliyah Veigar Viktor Velkoz Orianna AurelionSol ). the problem is mages itemization being fucked up again because of riot mymu

item 3001 item 3165 100% rushed in lcs item 3030 what is this shit? item 3151 i don't need this when i oneshot everyone item 3048 do i need mana anymore in season 6?

luden is weak, but except item 3089 item 3100 who have their niche every item but morello and abyssal have their niche being terrible right now.

ErockandrollOct 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4Gpu3QN,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-12T13:20:59.800+0000)

Luden is terrible imo 82% gold effiency, and that's because riot nerfed the ap from 120 to 100 without any explinations, maybe they found that mages were doing too much damage.

but even if you buff luden, there will still be a problem. the problem isn't that mages lack big damage items, mid lane is pretty much mages right now ( ). the problem is mages itemization being fucked up again because of riot mymu

100% rushed in lcs what is this shit? i don't need this when i oneshot everyone do i need mana anymore in season 6?

luden is weak, but except who have their niche every item but morello and abyssal have their niche being terrible right now.

to answer your first question, it wasn't just to nerf Luden's (or the idea that mages were too OP) It was the fact that everyone and their mother thought that AP was everythings. That was an era where everyone built Deathcap, Ludens, hourglass, because they were the large 120 AP items.

What Riot ended up doing, was making Death cap, the premier High AP item, and set the base line for everything else at 100. Which begs the question, what's wrong with Luden's that makes it weak, despite the fact that it's stats are on par with most AP items? I think the problem is the low AP% on the burst component. This was done because Riot intended it to be a strong Early game pick up that falled off. Of coarse, no one would pick it up, because it does nothing for early game mana or CDR needs.

So Either you adjust it's stats to be more preferable as an early game pickup, or you adjust when the item is suppose to spike.

NineTailedMysticOct 12, 20161 votes

Well, we used to have DFG/Deathcap/Zhonya's as the holy trinity of big AP items at 120 a pop. Zhonya's is at 70, Deathcap is a chore to buy with its combine cost, and we lost DFG so Rylai's took its place after Luden's got dumpstered. If we lose Rylai's only Dcap, Ludens, and Morello are 100 AP or more, considering Archangels is very niche.

DeathBurstOct 12, 20161 votes

I'm totally out of my depth here, but does Archangels really deserve to be so niche? From what I understand, Archangels should be THE core item for late-game scaling, very high AP builds.

DarkRitualOct 12, 20162 votes

Most champs can't forgo their early core items for tear. Some also can't stack tear easily. You need a low mana, low cd spell that's worth casting on cooldown ( Ezreal Cassiopeia Ryze ).

DeathBurstOct 12, 20161 votes

Well, of course if you wanna scale up in late game, you have to accept being weak in early, you can't have your cake and eat it too. And since the MYMU, you can also stack tear with expansive spells, since it refunds mana spent instead of giving mana regen. Plus now it passively stacks with time, on top of the spell-casting stacks, no?

Thing is, I don't play Mid, this is all just on paper, maybe I'm totally wrong. But I see no one building Tear and everyone complaining about AP being lower than before, when the highest AP builds can be reached with Tear, so I'm a little dumb-founded by the contradiction... Seraph by itself is more AP than Luden or Rylai, and it also increases the AP you get from Morello/GLP/Lichbane, plus gives you even more AP from your base Mana. Even with Morello as your only other Mana item, we're talking in the order of 70 AP more for a full level 18 build. At least 50 even without Mana items at all (except Seraph itself).

NineTailedMysticOct 13, 20163 votes

Because champions want it stacked ASAP, so even if it refunds mana someone like Lux isn't going to use it because her CDs are too high to get it stacked. Not to mention, Burst Mages like Ahri and Lux want their AP and want it now because their powerspike is mid game. They don't want to scale up for late game and if it does get to late game, Archangel's just isn't something you can sell something to buy.

So, while in S5 I'd build Morello (80 AP) for mana and CDR, Luden's (120 AP), Zhonya's (120 AP), and Deathcap (120 AP with higher returns on the Luden's/Zhonya's AP) and last item Void Staff (80 AP) building Sorcerer's Shoes somewhere in there. So just Morello/Luden's/Zhonya's was 320 AP in S5, those 3 items are only 270 AP so I need Deathcap if I want 300 AP by 20 minutes.

La BarbotteOct 12, 20166 votes

Elise Amumu Ivern Rumble Sejuani Singed Swain Vladimir Zac

YES PLZ WE LIKE THE HP RIOT DONT KILL US

Robert SmithOct 12, 20162 votes

Why does sej have it? Doesnt she have enough slows?

Big LincolnOct 12, 20162 votes

can you really have too many slows

MordepoolOct 12, 20164 votes

Item slows don't stack sooooo. Yes yes you can

Tychusfindlay919Oct 12, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4Gpu3QN,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-12T13:01:09.369+0000)

Making it build out of and Giving something along the lines of 10% Cdr 500 HP 70 AP

Or would it be too similar to Protobelt?

Personally, I would prefer it become the frozen mallet of mage items.

-30 AP and give it 200 HP, forget the CDR.

build path change to item 1058 item 1011 item 1028

KeìronOct 12, 20161 votes

30 AP is too low. 50 or 60 is ok.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

30 AP is too low. 50 or 60 is ok.

I do hope you live in one of the non-english speaking European countries. If so, your comical reading comprehension error will be forgiven.

KeìronOct 12, 20161 votes

Sorry i'm italian XD. What's the error in my last comment? you meant 70-30 AP or 30 instead of 70?

Tychusfindlay919Oct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sorry i'm italian XD. What's the error in my last comment? you meant 70-30 AP or 30 instead of 70?

-30 is short for: the original AP value of rylais - the proposed change to the AP value of rylais

The original value = 100

the proposed change = -30

100 - 30 = 70 AP

I'm asking for rylais to be:

70 AP 600 HP

Photos of GhostsOct 13, 20161 votes

I understood it as taking away 30 AP from what you had from other items. You know, to me a minus in front of a number makes it a negative number.

The Yetii RiderOct 12, 20162 votes

I still think the AP mana option is better for the game. When you want fewer people to build an item, you take off the health.

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20162 votes

Not if the ones you want to hit with it are all mana users who like cdr :P

The Yetii RiderOct 12, 20161 votes

Obviously, but we have no evidence that Meddler has a problem with Cass or Viktor building it. I'd say the opposite is true, considering he proposed the AP version.

Malicious MetalOct 12, 20161 votes

He also proposed one with less AP and more HP

He presented two possibilities and recently reaffirmed that they're still discussing possible changes.

The Yetii RiderOct 12, 20161 votes

He stated health is the universal stat you can never have too much of, so I'd be very surprised if he kept the health when the point is to make the item built less often.