Is Devourer overnerfed?

atomicwit·Dec 15, 2014·11 votes·4,423 views

I know WW was a problem with it but other champs like Yi, Fiora, Xin etc. didn't have similar win rate spikes. It feels lackluster now. I need an extra 10-15 minutes to have the same damage as on purchase. My TF Jungle lacks a bit of punch in ganks and I've lost almost every Kog JG game since the nerf. I realize these aren't traditional JG choices and probably not the best, but do standard Devourer JGs not feel much less effective as well?

Maybe I'm biased so I'm curious what people think of the item now. I think it needs another 5 on-hit damage or maybe a 5 reduction in on-hit but 10% CDR on top of it. Camps just don't respawn fast enough to be a late game god even if all you do is farm (which you shouldn't). The spawn times are long enough that you'll often be wasting your time when trying to counter jungle. Games also tend to snowball more than in S4 and it's basically over by 30-35 minutes. The item's power is too late game oriented for the current meta.

33 Comments

Earl EulrichDec 15, 20142 votes

pretty much, right now all those jungle-items are good for is an early-powerspike - and with devourer nerfed Warrior is actually the only Item left that really has such an effect, thus making AD-Bruiser-Junglers more dominant than ever currently.

They really should reconsider their design of jungler items...I think they really need to get a Tier3-upgrade to make them scale into the lategame without having to be ridiculously gold-efficient early on. Because right now you´re way better of just upgrading machete to the Tier1-smite-upgrade and then buying a "normal" lane-build, selling the jungle-item lategame with anyone that cannot use Warrior or plans on stacking devourer to infinity and beyond.

AnomanderDec 15, 20142 votes

Nope it is fine

Poorly DressedDec 15, 20141 votes

Of course it is, beceause Season 5 hast to be League of Lee again ;)

Kowe The EwokDec 15, 20141 votes

Devourer is troublesome one xactly 2 champions:

1.) Warwick, since his ultimate breaks the ASP cap

2.) Udyr, well it's Udyr

I rather think those 2 champions should be tackled (Warwick was) instead of overnerfing the item.

pE4CbxDPQODec 15, 20141 votes

Doubtful, feels fine but I use it on ww on udyr lol. Also last round a ww on my team had like 35 at 20 minutes and 1shot vayne, so I don't think it was overnerfed or tackled.

Earl EulrichDec 15, 20141 votes

just because 1 champion can still make good use of it doesn´t mean it´s not overnerfed. THere´s really no other devourer-jungle around than WW anymore.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

Udyr anyone? Any of the AA junglers as long as they don't do the same mistake they did with the old FF(not ganking at all unless getting tons of stacks or miscalculating the damage they do and failing in ganks)?

Earl EulrichDec 15, 20141 votes

Udyr is a really bad pick outside of SoloQ, he´s just way to easy to kite around. His only option is pretty much getting everyone else ahead early on and warrior is much better for that on Udyr than devourer.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

Udyr doesn't really benefit a lot from CDR, which is important in Warrior enchantment power budget He gets way more damage by the amplification of his AS steriods upon Q activation and making more diffuclt for his enemies to itemize against him Also, he can get enough CDR with a number of other items he can build

The rest of Warrior stats are not bad, but not good enough to justify it or not stimualte to swap it for a normal items once you can clear jungle fast enough Devourer is just much better on him, and more in general all the other enchantment have a reason to be picked ahead of Warrior in some match-ups(Juggernaut when playing vs strong CC is way stronger as it has tenacity and allow you to not build Merc tread but boots that fit better for udyr, and he can use well AP on magus enchantment too to strengthen Turtle and Phoenix stance)

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

It was nerfed in the wrong way( here there is my detalied opinion)

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/V46ZWVEV-the-changes-on-enchantment-devourer-are-going-in-the-wrong-direction

junglerboy16Dec 15, 20141 votes

Rather than a reduction on AS (most of the champs who use it rely on built in AS steroids already), the way devourer needs to be fixed is by giving it a hard cap on stacks gained. If they raised the damage back to 30-35, but then gave the item a hard cap of 40 stacks, you would solve everything for a few reasons. You don't force jungles to have to farm it up to where it was as much because the base damage is back up. You don't have the issue of champions being able to scale incredibly well on only one damage item (infinite scaling that anyone can get is not balanceable, unlike infinite scaling as part of a kit, like Nasus, Sion, Viegar or Thresh). Also, you alleviate the issue of champions AFK farming it up to crazy stack levels, since once it stacks, they are not incentivized to leave their team in favor of farming (this could be balanced so that they reach max stacks right around 25-30 minutes, depending on how quickly the bought the enchantment).

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20143 votes

Rather than a reduction on AS (most of the champs who use it rely on built in AS steroids already), the way devourer needs to be fixed is by giving it a hard cap on stacks gained. If they raised the damage back to 30-35, but then gave the item a hard cap of 40 stacks, you would solve everything for a few reasons. You don't force jungles to have to farm it up to where it was as much because the base damage is back up. You don't have the issue of champions being able to scale incredibly well on only one damage item (infinite scaling that anyone can get is not balanceable, unlike infinite scaling as part of a kit, like Nasus, Sion, Viegar or Thresh). Also, you alleviate the issue of champions AFK farming it up to crazy stack levels, since once it stacks, they are not incentivized to leave their team in favor of farming (this could be balanced so that they reach max stacks right around 25-30 minutes, depending on how quickly the bought the enchantment).

Nah, you just make it even more useless. The point of an item like that(FF/Devourer) is to get to a point when you can get enough damage to make AA based melee champs relevant against some kinds of comp that would completely destroy them. 75 max magic damage on it is nothing, they would got more damage by running a Last Whisper. At least the devourer mechanism allows you to potentially have high power late

You'd better read my other posts in that thread that explains some of the points you address rather than keep your idea that miss the point of the whoile item

P.S. Higher AS boost the power of the in-built AS steroids on these champs kit, so "most of the champs who use it rely on built in AS steroids already" make a lot of difference power wise

junglerboy16Dec 15, 20142 votes

P.S. Higher AS boost the power of the in-built AS steroids on these champs kit, so "most of the champs who use it rely on built in AS steroids already" make a lot of difference power wise

Only higher BASE AS boosts the power of AS steroids. Gaining or losing 15% AS from an item doesn't make that large of a difference, since their base ratios are high already.

As to your other points, the idea that one single item could be all that is needed to make AA reliant champs viable is in itself toxic and binary as heck. It means that instead of addressing the basic issue of "why is X AA based champion weak" they are all forced to buy a single item that then dictates balance around wether or not said time is strong or weak. This leads to an incredibly binary cycle where the item is tuned based on the champions who use it, and the champions are tuned around an item they HAVE to use. This basically means that with your idea, AA based champions would become very weak without this item, and this item would be completely useless on any champ that it isn't tailored to.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

{quoted} Only higher BASE AS boosts the power of AS steroids. Gaining or losing 15% AS from an item doesn't make that large of a difference, since their base ratios are high already.

LOL WUT? AS steroids work upon the AS you have by base AS + items(+ runes + masteries, etc...). Champ that have AS steroids in ther kit HAVE to build AS to make proper use of them, since bonus AS stacks additively.

As to your other points, the idea that one single item could be all that is needed to make AA reliant champs viable is in itself toxic and binary as heck. It means that instead of addressing the basic issue of "why is X AA based champion weak" they are all forced to buy a single item that then dictates balance around wether or not said time is strong or weak. This leads to an incredibly binary cycle where the item is tuned based on the champions who use it, and the champions are tuned around an item they HAVE to use. This basically means that with your idea, AA based champions would become very weak without this item, and this item would be completely useless on any champ that it isn't tailored to.

LOl, your comprehension reading skills are kinda bad man. I was arguing the exact opposite of what you read in my words, I was arguing that both the old and the actual Devourer provide itself all what is needed to AA champs to make them viable because through it they end up having 2 pretty strong sources of power, and that hit on-hit damage make it trigger the toxic mechanics of the old FF, and that's why is wiser to revert the on-hit damage changes and hit AS instead, to avoid that AA champs can just buy 1 item and get everything they need only with it

Earl EulrichDec 15, 20142 votes

LOL WUT? AS steroids work upon the AS you have by base AS + items(+ runes + masteries, etc...). Champ that have AS steroids in ther kit HAVE to build AS to make proper use of them, since bonus AS stacks additively.

Nope, Junglerboy got it right...all +AS only adds a percentage of the Base-AS, doesn´t matter how much AS you built already. The stat is not scaling with itself, and so Champs with a high Base-AS generally get more out of building AS than CHamps with lower Base-AS, especially if you go for on-hit-centric-dmg.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

LOL No, he is completely wrong. Read what he wrote "Only higher BASE AS boosts the power of AS steroids." That is completely wrong Bonus AS stacks additively, so your AS steroids got stronger with getting more bonus AS. Champion with high Base AS get more AS for % of bonus AS, that's true, but the effectiveness of bonus AS is not reduced by getting further bonus AS, as for example happen with damage reduction from armor and MR. The same growth of champion AS doesn't touch their base AS at all but adds bonus AS, and guess what, the champs that ends up with the highest AS at level 18 are the ones that gets more bonus AS/level... To say that AA based champs won't get hit by the reduction of AS on an item is just flat out wrong

Earl EulrichDec 15, 20141 votes

hm yea, though it´s also true that you don´t really need the AS in order to make AS-steroids work outside of on-hit-mechanics. And while an nerf to the AS would definitely hurt some Champs it would only streamling AD-junglers more onto the Warrior enchantment. Having a high AS/on-hit item is a much better niche to coexist with the AD/Pen centric warrior.

The main problem for me currently is that there´s no further upgrade for the jungler item, so it all comes down to early/midgame efficieny mostly - so it´s no big surprise that competitive gets completely dominated by Warrior-junglers currently...and junglers that don´t relay on Warrior mostly just get the smite upgrade and leave it at that fort he midgame. So it´s kinda impossible to balance out currently, as AD-jungler spike earlier anyway and also get the most out of the early-fcoused jungle-items therefor. If there would be further upgrades to allow tank/AP-junglers to scale into the lategame there coud be a lot more diversity.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

On AS he is right on technicality but wrong on the concrete results. Given that bonus AS stacks additively, the more bonus AS you get, the more benefit you have because the effectiveness of the AS you buy doesn't get reduced(until you don't reach the cap, of cuorse), and in practice it is what make the difference and matters for you as players(of course, it makes non convenient to buy AS on low AS champions, but this should be obvious)
The problem of launch devourer was not the concept, but that its power was too high. It has the second higher AS% in the game(well, to be precise the third slightly behind a full stacked Guinsoo with the low health passive triggered by 2%, but whatever). And possibly offered dozens and dozens of added damage through on-hit magic damage on top of that, that the similar power AS items can't direclty offer as stats or effects(except BoTRK and partially Nashor, although it require to build further Ap making it really niche as item)** . Nerf AS trigger different mechanics than nerf the base damage on-hit (for a more detailed explanation of my reasoning, there are the posts in that thread linked, repeat them here would make too long of a post), and in my opinions kinda of balance its power without triggering toxic effects like what happen with base on-hit damage nerfs(that doesn't even balance power, imho)

** not counting the crit chance on various items, of course

Given that jungle items are always going to rely about early/mid game efficiency since late game jungle can be easily cleared by non junglers and without need to have junglers items, I don't see the main problem in the balance of enchantments, but rather in the balance of tier-2 items. Poacher is felt like kinda useless, and Skirmisher is too weak compared to Stalker. If you look at what are the combination of jungle items that works and are used among the 16 different combinations, you can see that thare like only 4 combo that are prevalent, and these are namely Trailbalzer/Stalker with Warrior/devourer enchantment, and if you analyze why Warrior and devourer are the enchantment used, it's because they are the enchantment that fits better with the tier 2 items as Traliblazer(farming in the jungle) and Stalker(offensive item on ganks) Skirmisher that should be there for the defensive junglers and Poacher for the counter junglers are not used because people feel that do not work well enough, and thus Magus and Juggernaut enchantment aren't used either Skirmisher should focus more to suit tanks, in a way it can be picked and thus lead to the use of Magus/Juggernaut on it, and Poacher reward should feel more appealing (and I use the word feel, cause have 30 sec of cooldown reduction on smite is not little for the champs that are yet strong counterjunglers...) for the ones that counterjungle and probably end up use Trailbalzer or Stalker

junglerboy16Dec 15, 20141 votes

I see your confusion now. The statistic for AS that you see on items is listed as X% AS. The amount listed in ability steroids is also as X% AS. The thing you are missing is that these measure the same thing for the amount gained. If you have .650 base AS (pretty average) and have a 50% AS item (like devourer), you will gain .325 more AS. Add that to your base amount along with your per level gains and you get you current attack speed. When you trigger a steroid, like Xin Zhao's Battle cry (lets assume level 5 spell), you gain 80% AS. What this does is it increases your current AS by 80% of your base AS, in this case, that is .52 AS. I promise you, if you look up Xin's Base AS, take him in a custom game and do the math, it will all work precisely as I have just explained.

junglerboy16Dec 15, 20141 votes

You don't seem to understand how a lot of things in this game work. ALL AS boosts, whether from items or from abilities scale off of your base AS. Believe me, I used to think it was the same way you think it is, but then I did the math and figured out how it actually works. This mechanism for AS is the reason that somebody like Nautilus doesn't do well with AS. If it worked multiplicatively, like you think it does, then every champion in the game would reach max AS by level 18 with only one AS item.

Your reading comprehension is what is truly lacking. To quote myself: "the idea that one single item could be all that is needed to make AA reliant champs viable is in itself toxic and binary as heck" You actually are supporting this idea. to quote you now: "I was arguing that both the old and the actual Devourer provide itself all what is needed to AA champs to make them viable". My argument is that your idea is binary and toxic, and there is nothing else to it. My point is that your argument that one item IS all that is needed to fix AA based junglers is flawed because each of these AA based junglers need flaws in their kits addressed, not just more power.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

Lol, you missed the whole discussion with Don Eulrich, then I have stated that it stacks additively various times, but still you want to point out on technicality and miss the true point of the discussion. But whatever

And yes, your reading comprehension skills are really poor I don't support the idea of Devourer to provide itself anything that is needed to AA based champs to be reliable, and that's why I said that the nerf went in the wrong direction and I proposed the nerf on As instead than on-hit base damage. You took a phrase that was a premise to explain a reasoning, quoted it out of the context, and pretend that it represented my idea...are you serious dude? Really? Then you complain that others lack reading comprehension skills, LOL

If anything, after this long OT, it's you that did not have explain yet why you wouldn't touch AS but you would put a cap on Devourer stacks without making it basically useless, not answering to the points that were provided here and in the other various discussions about Devourer Waiting for an answer, if you are willing to debate and not to going on technicality and accusing other of lacking comprehension skills when you quote people out of context

junglerboy16Dec 15, 20141 votes

I did not quote you out of context any more than you quoted me out of context. Either we are both totally missing each others points and shouting past each other, or I quoted you and you quoted me and you don't like that I made a counter point. I am more inclined to say we are both just not getting what the other is saying, because you obviously don't understand what I mean, and I must not understand what you mean if you keep saying I don't. So lets just be civil about this and drop the subject.

P.S. Starting every one of your posts with "lol" makes you seem less credible, just a bit of advice.

Ale non è maleDec 16, 20141 votes

Sorry man if I have been a bit rude, but yeah, you quoted me completely out of context, and is it clear to see why Both in the my orginal Devourer thread then here I focused on how having the 2 very strong sources of power on the same item(FF, both versions of Devourer) was bad because it gave all the power AA farming junglers needed with 1 item, and why hit AS is a wiser choice than hit on-hit base magic damage if you want to subtract one source of power and balance out the item. How did you came out with the idea that I supported Devourer being an item that "the idea that one single item could be all that is needed to make AA reliant champs viable is in itself toxic and binary as heck." ? This is something I still have to understand, since my posts went exactly against that idea.

junglerboy16Dec 16, 20141 votes

I think my issue is that in my mind, once you take away a lot of the AS on devourer, then how is it really a better choice than Warrior? I know they deal different types of damage, and the AD from warrior doesn't scale, but that still makes them a little too similar in my mind. Either way, I see your point and I'm glad we got past all of this bickering.

Ale non è maleDec 16, 20141 votes

Well, 40 base magic damage on-hit that that can infinitely scale provide a lot of damage, and damage against which is difficult to itemzie because the champs that would get it are the champs that deal a lot of physical damage through AA. But, those champs would still need to buy further AS through other items to be able to clear jungle and proc stacks, so you kinda balance out the power as you get lower immediate power than the actual devourer(and probably than Warrior), but higher damage later when you get stacks on it and you can buy AS to apply it faster to enemy champs

HayaishiDec 15, 20141 votes

That thing simply can't be strong.

Farm junglers shouldn't be rewarded with outscaling everyone by doing nothing but PvE.

LaughingStaplerDec 15, 20142 votes

{quoted} That thing simply can't be strong.

Farm junglers shouldn't be rewarded with outscaling everyone by doing nothing but PvE.

Actually, that's the ONLY reason to play a farm jungler. You're giving up a lot of pressure if you farm while the other jungler can snowball lanes. The only way such a strategy can be in the slightest viable is if you scale really well.

HayaishiDec 15, 20143 votes

{quoted} Actually, that's the ONLY reason to play a farm jungler. You're giving up a lot of pressure if you farm while the other jungler can snowball lanes. The only way such a strategy can be in the slightest viable is if you scale really well.

Which is why Riot should never nerf pressure based junglers.

Nothing good ever comes from letting shit like Fiddlesticks, Yi, Amumu, WW be the gods of the jungle, it should NEVER be allowed.

BTW i'm agreeing with you, i just think that pressure from the jungle should always be more important than sitting back and farm.

Ale non è maleDec 15, 20141 votes

Amumu isn't a lane pressure based jungler? LOL

Kuroi86Dec 15, 20141 votes

Newp, it got put to just the right spot imo. You want some damage on hit, but you don't want it to be too quick to scale, which is where it was before.

Toru ItaiDec 16, 20141 votes

it's a late game item, keep farming, get to late game, and you'll see it's still strong.

ofartDec 17, 20141 votes

It feels pretty weak now. I'd rather have the flat stats of Warrior than wait 30 min to barely outscale it.

LaughingStaplerDec 25, 20141 votes

I've seen Yis and Rengars mostly go Warrior now. This suggests that Devourer's nerf may have been a tad too severe. I actually haven't seen any Devourer JGs for a while.