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@Meddler About Karma

TNHA Baritone··16 votes·1,266 views

Lets get this out of the way:

No one wanted those shield-buffs earlier this season (patch 6.6) OR the changes last season (patch 5.10). I was completely shocked when it happened. I don't think there was even one post that wanted Karma's shield to get buffed (unless we're talking about bringing back shield-bomb). With that being said, this 'Karma situation' is completely on you guys. I don't want the Karma fan(less; #BringBackTheFans) base to be looked at like we cried wolf. In fact, my great friend, Mister Shameless made a post on the pbe about the buffs before they hit live. He said (and was down-voted for it):

Right now I feel Karma's shield is both strong and healthy. This buff isn't exactly what she needs, even though its quite nice.

Wow...shocking. A person who mains Karma and didn't want her to get buffed? He must be stupid, right? I wonder why he'd think like that:

She is in a great spot right now which is why I hope she doesn't get nerfed in the future with this buff. She is completely balanced and with good amount of play making and counter plays.

....

For those of you who are lost, on this thread Meddler stated:

Finally we'll be prioritizing work on champs that are particular problems in pro play a bit more in the next couple of patches (6.15 is the patch for most, or possibly all, of the Worlds qualifiers). (...) There will probably be some more changes prioritized by pro play impact in 6.15 too (Viktor and Karma look likely, potentially others like Elise?).

Currently, in NA LCS, Karma is a very popular pick because of her early game poke and her area of effect shield, Defiance (R+E). She has received play because the patch 6.6 buff and I'd be a fool to think Riot isn't going to nerf her...and quite frankly they'd be foolish to let her go on like. She's so one-sided right now. Her quote should be changed to:

*** "I saw one path, and it was AOE shield"***

I've spoken to many Karma mains on this and I think many of us would like to see a rebalance of power. As my fellow Karma enthusiast, SilverSquid, flawlessly said,

Since her winrate in normal play is slightly below 50%, straight up nerfing her power doesn't make sense.

Karma needs a powershift. Or more precisely; more skill requirement in her kit, to make mastering her harder. Allow her to fail at pro play, instead of giving her free power. If not for the skills themselves, make her decision making harder.

No offense Riot, but unless you guys just aren't telling us your idea (which is probably the more truthful part), you clearly don't know what is right for Karma (patch 5.10 and 6.6). This is probably the most strategic way to fix Karma's core problems. In doing this, there would be room for more definitive niches in her kit and quite frankly, she would be able to become a better support (not a shield-bot like currently).

Karma currently has three main problems:

  • Her Mantra's are specialized for different roles making one almost always superior depending on your build. Support Karma only uses Defiance (R+E). Go watch Biofrost. Have you ever seen him use R+Q in a fight? That doesn't seem like the decision making ultimate if one choice is always better.

  • She's a Supportive Mage, yet it seems like she's just a shield-bot rather than a real support. I feel like Riot missed out. I think W could have been the split between offensive and supportive. It currently doesn't do any noticeable damage unless you're full AP and it's Mantra bonus is hilariously selfish. It's a simple ability and I think simple abilities make the summoner unable to do less with adequate/overwhelming skill (which isn't good).

  • Riot took away her Shield-bomb. It made Karma have to choose either, help my team disengage, or use the damage. She couldn't actually have best of the both worlds unless her team (or the enemy team) put themselves in a position for her to use it both offensively and defensively.

#TLDR, they're only nerfing her because of those bandwagon LCS players...just like every Karma main said would happen. She does nothing in solo Dynamic Queue. None of us wanted the buffs (6.6) or changes in (5.10). #BRINGBACKFANS&SHIELDBOMB

17 Comments

IxtaliKing8 votes

The kind of power shift I'd like to see:

  • Ally tether function, heal or something else
  • 1.5s root on W at all ranks and revert the ap ratio to .6
  • RW remove bonus root, give her a flat heal value based on missing hp and give back mantra damage (the damage was the only thing worth risking staying at that range for).
  • Restore REs damage and pre 5.10 values.

I miss the depth she had prior to 5.10 when she actually did have mantra diversity, the only change she needed back then was a less selfish use for her RW.

TNHA Baritone7 votes

Please ^

If Meddler reads anything: Let it be this^

Sugar Momma1 votes

I really her R-E should get an AOE knockback around her target (remove bonus shield) that knocks enemies back further the closer they are to his target. Would be VERY nice thematically and make her a better protective support.

IxtaliKing6 votes

Only problem is she needs damage options for Mid, and also giving her that knock back would make her step on Janna's toes a little too much.

Tilt for Karma6 votes

She isn't over powered unlike other supports, don't nerf her just because she is played. Shift powers, bring diversity, but don't ruin her just because of LCS.

Petri Fidlfynger1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tilt for Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E1zA3YIF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-06-25T17:11:59.587+0000)

She isn't over powered unlike other supports, don't nerf her just because she is played. Shift powers, bring diversity, but don't ruin her just because of LCS.

I agree. It's a 50% win rate. Where is Leona - above 50 and being buffed.

Her Ult-W is useless 98% of time and 99% time in fights. Her Ult-Q is best for peels or clearing minions. Which does make her a 'shield bot' during most fights. Again, at 50% win rate - I simply see resources should be better spent on balancing very low win rate champs or removing the idiocy of Leona and Sona buffs (that were not needed).

Mirkhail4 votes

She honestly need another rework, she isn't unhealthy but she is too generic and lack focus

SilverSquid5 votes

Funny enough, Meddler is completely in line with what you said.

But as there are WAY too many champions more problematic than her, she won't get a single-champion-rework in the next few years. And otherwise they favour updating champions in groups, so Meddler stated, she will be high priority once they do an Enchanter Update or an Ionian Event. Which won't be happening in a year or two.

That's why I am currently trying to push small-scale changes to make her bearable until then. Like the things KingKold mentioned above; reintroduction of shielddamage, ally-tether function, replacing the %missinghp-heal with a flat heal that increases on low hp,...

Sugar Momma2 votes

Her R-W REALLY needs to be changed.

I've been arguing the cast time should be 1 second (instead of 2) on the mantra empowered W for a while now. It makes it a lot more worthwhile to use it, especially as a support.

tonytwobits2 votes

I know that tank Karma is not the primary build right now and the priority is probably going to be balancing around Mid and Support Karma. However if anyone from Riot reads this, please take this into consideration when making changes. This is by far my favorite champion to play and this is my favorite way to play her. So I write this just to give my perspective as to what is important to me as a Karma player.

I have about 550 ranked games on Karma this season with about probably about 70% or so as top lane tank Karma. (Normal build being RoA, IceBorn, Spirit Visage, Mercs/Swifties, Liandries Torment, GA/ZZrot). My biggest concern about the popularity of Karma in the LCS is that it will inspire changes that will end up gutting tank Karma.

Tank Karma revolves around 3 things in descending importance (as well as the normal utility that support Karma depends on):

  1. The heal from R->W. This is the big one. This allows Karma to get right in the thick of things and requires the player to know the limits of the champion. You want to get as low as possible without dying to get the biggest heal off as you can, baiting in an over commitment from the enemy. To go along with this, tank Karma maxes W second to get the most out of the root. Clearly this helps with team fights and setting up ganks, but it is also important in trading with melee champs in lane. You can get them rooted in a minion wave for a long time and allows Karma to get more autos in to lower her ult cool-down.

  2. **Solid base damage. ** Yes we all know the R->Q to the face level 1, but the like support Karma, tank karma relies on good base damage. I normally build 1 or 2 AP items on tank Karma. RoA first item then a Liandries Torment 4th or 5th item. She does not have % health damage or true damage like a lot of tanks and brusers do so having the good base damage allows her to hold her own in a 1v1 vs a tank, as well as still be a decent threat to a squishy target.

  3. The Passive I think Karma's passive is more important to tank Karma than it is to any other Karma build. With the tank build you are in range for autos a lot more often and with not having the same damage as mid Karma build you are going to want to get as many Mantras off as possible in a fight. In a long 1v1 vs the enemy top laner, 2 or 3 more autos can make the differance between getting a huge heal off before Darius ults you or sitting on the ground dead with 2 second left on your ult coodown.

I would also make the argument that the tank play style fits into the theme of Karma. With quotes like "Now we prove our courage", "By force of will!" "None will question our resolve!", that is the quotes of a warrior charging into battle. It is being strong and in your convictions and unmovable. Also, Karma is all about choices, and we must all make our choices. It is to see two paths, and make one in between. Versatility is Karma's theme. Mid Karma focuses on Q. Support Karma focus on E. Tank Karma focuses on W. I agree that making the other Mantra's more appealing to Support Karma would be a good thing. I think of the 3 Karma positions, support Karma is the most one dimensional. But currently for Tank Karma, although primary uses R-W, the other Mantras are in a good place and used in many situations.

Anyway, that is just my perspective. A wise woman once said "Never fear change". So I will adapt if there are major changes. But I would love it if the tank play-style could still be viable.

TNHA Baritone3 votes

She'll become a Lulu soon if they nerf her too hard. Remember Lulu thrived in all 3 lanes, (mid top and supp). Now we don't even see her in support.

tonytwobits3 votes

Agree. She is very much like Lulu right now when Lulu was pick/ban in pro play. A safe flex pick with few bad matchups that can fit into any team composition. I think that Karma now is healthier than Lulu was when she was strong, so I worry that they could over do it on the nerfs. I just don't want Riot to force her into 1 roll or play style. Choices is Karma's theme. I agree that right now, support Karma does not have much in way of choices. Build Sightstone, build Locket, Ult E team. I feel that making the E do damage again would be a good idea. Changing the W to also interact with allies some how would help support karma have more choices. I just hope that the %health heal on the R-W stays because it is so key to tank karma.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

I think her support game is just super basic. Shield. Poke. Auto-attack.

Meanwhile EVERY other support has meaningful CC.

Thresh be like: Hook got you stunned for an eternity. Flay got you slowed for a while. Ult got you slowed for your lifetime. Lantern to save caught out noobs.

At this point, I wouldn't mind making Karma have a higher skill cap because it's not fair for us to be putting in so much effort meanwhile Morgana, another mage support, can effectively peel, deal damage.

In all honesty, the only reason to pick Karma over Morgana (if there is any) is to AOE shield...but then again Morgana can do that with Locket.

Vanjie2 votes

They will just nerf the vase values of the shield or increase the cooldown of her w and W+R. Do not expect Riot to do anything meaningful on Karma. They haven't done anything since three years ago.

I like all of the suggestions KingKold93 said. Take a note or two, Riot game developers. You obviously don't know what the he** you are doing.

ZapMyHeart2 votes

{quoted}

They will just nerf the vase values of the shield or increase the cooldown of her w and W+R. Do not expect Riot to do anything meaningful on Karma. They haven't done anything since three years ago.

I like all of the suggestions KingKold93 said. Take a note or two, Riot game developers. You obviously don't know what the he** you are doing.

Considering that Riot gave Karma's rework to a new designer who didn't even bother trying to understand old Karma's playstyle and forced it live earlier than expected, then spent months giving huge amounts of buffs to make her playable, did you really expect anything else?

If Riot really wants to make her work, they need to realize that her pre-Mantra abilities are too overloaded with utility, which prevents them from giving Mantra abilities a lot of power. They should simply shift a lot of that power to the Mantra ones and focus on making Mantra her core. At the moment, it's more of a secondary thing. Something that old Karma did well was that you could really see the difference in her Mantra abilities as using it could swing the battle to your favor.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

they need to realize that her pre-Mantra abilities are too overloaded with utility, which prevents them from giving Mantra abilities a lot of power.

I understand what you are saying, but her regular spells each lack utility on their own.

Q - Slow

W - Snare

E - Shield

ZapMyHeart2 votes

{quoted}

I understand what you are saying, but her regular spells each lack utility on their own.

Q - Slow

W - Snare

E - Shield

Her Q has a rather short cooldown and low mana cost, which means you could be pumping out slows like crazy. W is fine. E is both a shield and a huge MS boost.

Something simply has to give, if they want to "fix" her. Personally, I would remove the MS boost on her E and put it on her RE (+add shield burst back), while changing her Q to a smaller AoE cone, with less slow (15%), while making her RQ a larger cone, with a bigger slow (30%).

She is simply a bad design because she can poke really far away, while at the same time, have the tools to dissuade others from coming close. However, the cost to this is that she is unable to provide really impactful support that the rest of her counterparts could.

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