Garen Update Ideas

Ifneth··1 votes·2,054 views

Garen is a good beginner champion—so good that many players stick with him even as they continue playing. He could use some small changes to reward these mains and relieve new summoners of understanding years of accumulated changes.

Design Passive: Perseverance. Unchanged.

Q: Decisive Strike No longer prevents Garen from casting Perseverence mid-swing.

W: Perseverence Stats from unit kills removed.

E: Judgment Garen spins four times, plus one for each rank of Judgment. Each spin reduces struck enemies’ armor by 5%. Bonus for spinning against one unit removed. Villain interaction removed.

R: Demacian Justice When Garen unlocks Demacian Justice, presents a panel of enemy champion icons and automatically highlights and chooses a Villain. Garen can click another icon to change Villains. Deals true damage to the Villain.

Balance -If removing the W resistances leaves Garen too vulnerable to poke, increase early Perseverance regeneration. If removing them leaves him too squishy in fights, increase W damage reduction. -If reducing the number of early E spins decreases Garen’s waveclear or damage too much, then increase the early base damage.

Result No more hidden power. No more uncontrollable villain mechanic. W brought into line with other defensive spells like Poppy’s Steadfast Presence and Tahm Kench’s Thick Skin. Immediate reward for landing E and better damage scaling into the late game.

16 Comments

The thigh guy2 votes

The villain mechanic is just stupid in itself. Garen does not need a 50% missing hp true damage execute.

EbonyBladeJ881 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-23T00:59:15.937+0000)

The villain mechanic is just stupid in itself. Garen does not need a 50% missing hp true damage execute.

The missing HP amount actually caps off at 40% with the max rank. It goes 28.6% at Rank 1, 33.3% for Rank 2 and 40% for Rank 3. Any True Damage beyond that is the 1% Max HP for his Basic Attacks and each Tick of his E.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

The missing HP amount actually caps off at 40% with the max rank. It goes 28.6% at Rank 1, 33.3% for Rank 2 and 40% for Rank 3. Any True Damage beyond that is the 1% Max HP for his Basic Attacks and each Tick of his E.

Okay. Let me rephrase is then. I should not be getting 100-0 by a pseudo tank with no damage items.

EbonyBladeJ881 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:12:08.666+0000)

Okay. Let me rephrase is then. I should not be getting 100-0 by a pseudo tank with no damage items.

Alright, let me try to explain this "100-0" thing. Garen is a Juggernaut, a subclass of the Fighters. Juggernauts are described as follows:

(Taken from the LOL Wiki, who in turn got it from Riot's own posts on the Subclass system)

"Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility."

So, based on that description, we can surmise that Garen is meant to both deal large amounts of damage, and tank large amounts of damage. Him taking you from "100-0" just means that he is doing his job, "dealing a significant amount of damage", while for the most part, shrugging off your retaliation, thus fulfilling the "taking/tanking significant amounts of damage" part as well.

Now, I know, I know. With the way things can go in the meta, what Riot SAYS a champion does like with the description above I got from the LOL Wiki and what they ACTUALLY DO IN-GAME are two different things, I get that. Depending on how he builds, a Garen COULD burst you. Building items a certain way can most definitely bring about a more bursty outcome than the sustained-damage that he is meant for.

What I'm trying to get across is that when Garen, or any other Juggernaut/Fighter kills you, it simply means that he is DOING HIS JOB, FULFILLING HIS DESIGNED PURPOSE. I know you may not like it, but it's the truth. What can I say? The truth hurts.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, let me try to explain this "100-0" thing. Garen is a Juggernaut, a subclass of the Fighters. Juggernauts are described as follows:

(Taken from the LOL Wiki, who in turn got it from Riot's own posts on the Subclass system)

"Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility."

So, based on that description, we can surmise that Garen is meant to both deal large amounts of damage, and tank large amounts of damage. Him taking you from "100-0" just means that he is doing his job, "dealing a significant amount of damage", while for the most part, shrugging off your retaliation, thus fulfilling the "taking/tanking significant amounts of damage" part as well.

Now, I know, I know. With the way things can go in the meta, what Riot SAYS a champion does like with the description above I got from the LOL Wiki and what they ACTUALLY DO IN-GAME are two different things, I get that. Depending on how he builds, a Garen COULD burst you. Building items a certain way can most definitely bring about a more bursty outcome than the sustained-damage that he is meant for.

What I'm trying to get across is that when Garen, or any other Juggernaut/Fighter kills you, it simply means that he is DOING HIS JOB, FULFILLING HIS DESIGNED PURPOSE. I know you may not like it, but it's the truth. What can I say? The truth hurts.

The epitome of balance. Not only am I impossible to kill, but I also fart and kill you, while also being nearly unkiteable and having soft cc.

hoganftw1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:36:25.052+0000)

The epitome of balance. Not only am I impossible to kill, but I also fart and kill you, while also being nearly unkiteable and having soft cc.

nearly unkiteable garen

yikes that's like not even remotely true Garen vs most ranged matchups is awful

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

nearly unkiteable garen

yikes that's like not even remotely true Garen vs most ranged matchups is awful

He had a ms steroid that doubles as a slow removal. What top laner has multiple slows, and range attacks that isn’t named Quinn? Also the range vs melee argument is entirely irrelevant. I can go on all day about how urgot wins every lane phase because Lul range.

hoganftw1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T01:44:34.484+0000)

He had a ms steroid that doubles as a slow removal. What top laner has multiple slows, and range attacks that isn’t named Quinn? Also the range vs melee argument is entirely irrelevant. I can go on all day about how urgot wins every lane phase because Lul range.

It's not slows that mess Garen up, it's movement speed increases, other forms of cc, and dashes that really do him in. Viktor, Teemo, Gnar, Kennen, Lucian, Vayne, maybe Draven, and Lissandra are usually tough matchups.

Baron Von Garen1 votes

Also, Garen suffers from enchanter supports. Basically anyone with a shield or one good heal can negate Garen's 100-0.

If he can't 100-0 the first target he latches on to, he suffers from his extremely long cooldowns and you can basically kite him to death since adc's can kill any range of bruisers to tanks in a few seconds

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:02:26.373+0000)

Also, Garen suffers from enchanter supports. Basically anyone with a shield or one good heal can negate Garen's 100-0.

If he can't 100-0 the first target he latches on to, he suffers from his extremely long cooldowns and you can basically kite him to death since adc's can kill any range of bruisers to tanks in a few seconds

So things that don’t exist in the game because they aren’t riot approved are what counters garen? But they can’t counter garen because riot doesn’t approve of their existence?

Baron Von Garen1 votes

Lulu Sona Karma Janna

wdym they don't exist?

Edit: And even then, kiting garen is easy as hell

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bz1ppMQW,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T18:37:53.827+0000)

Lulu Sona Karma Janna

wdym they don't exist?

Edit: And even then, kiting garen is easy as hell

Okay. So you’re saying that the way to deal with garen is to have a role dedicated to deal with him, but riot has nerfed that role so hard that it’s almost entirely irrelevant.

Perfect logic. And the counter to assassins in tanks, except tanks die instantly to assassins. But they still counter assassins because they are tanks. They just can’t be tanks.

Baron Von Garen1 votes

It is certainly a good way to deal with Garen if you have one of them on your team. Other than that you can just kite him.

Other conq abusers counter Garen

Lot of adc's can outrun/use their mobility against Garen

He has no dashes so it's pretty easy to hit him with something

Baron Von Garen1 votes

The villain mechanic is the problem.

It is literally unfair to fight against Garen when you're marked by him. You almost certainly will lose unless you're someone like Vayne . Meaning if Garen gets to choose the villain, he will basically win almost any matchup.

What Garen needs is either a mini-rework (which I want), or he needs the villain mechanic removed and put more power into his base stats/abilities (hp/level, armor/level, W cooldown, etc) since, compared to other juggernauts, his stats suck except for level 1.

I think they should give him scaling cooldowns like most other champs, while reducing his damage. Get rid of the villain mechanic, and maybe change his E to shred armor per tick like you said. Another thing I'd like to see is changing his ult to physical damage so it actually pairs well with his armor shred, or give him some kind of mechanic that turns it into true damage after doing XYZ.

Ifneth1 votes

Remember that this set of changes would remove the E interaction with the Villain mechanic. He’d also get only a true damage conversion on his ult, the damage of which could be reduced if necessary.

Danyoja1 votes

Garen's W is called Courage. Perseverance should have a slightly higher cooldown at all ranks but reduces cooldown every time garen is hit.

My take would be to romove his free stats and villian, give him back some base move speed and make W pop his passive for 5 or so seconds while in combat.

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