I'm starting a crusade against targeted/reliable burst damage.

Khristophoros·Aug 4, 2018·3 votes·1,539 views

As a Vel'Koz main I think this game will only be truly fair when all champions can potentially miss their entire kit.

But I'll settle for simple number nerfs to point and click burst.

26 Comments

lightdragoon88Aug 4, 20182 votes

Xerath You have my support.

NekozeiAug 4, 20182 votes

Reliable burst damage is a fair trade for being melee which most burst damage champs are. Velkoz has a major range advantage on most burst champs. So if players who use mages can properly hit their skills, they can beat burst champs.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

Not when those melee champs have insane mobility.

NekozeiAug 4, 20181 votes

If they didn't have mobility they would never be able to touch a spell caster. People get frustrated by burst champs because they don't know how to counterplay. You stun them, they're dead.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

The mobility is already so strong against a champ like Vel'koz that he can't duel any of those champs. The only reason he's viable is he can spam waveclear and then group with his team.

GeneralistAug 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Reliable burst damage is a fair trade for being melee which most burst damage champs are. Velkoz has a major range advantage on most burst champs. So if players who use mages can properly hit their skills, they can beat burst champs.

You forgot that every melee burster has at least 2 gap closers or a windwall type ability that blocks your one advantage that range gives you

NekozeiAug 4, 20181 votes

If you stun them they will fall. Gap closers are essential. How useful would a squishy katarina who couldn't blink be? It's a different playstyle that a lot of spell casters can't counter because they don't think. CC stops bursters.

KazaJhodoAug 4, 20182 votes

I'm with you, skill game please.

No point and click cc. Gimme my counter-play.

I don't understand how you can take a point and click stun from taric, but leave similar things on other champs. Like annie, the counterplay is to stay away.... ok. Sounds like fun.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

Yeah when they removed things like that, and gutted Kassadin, everything else became fair game in my eyes. They need to go all the way with the counterplay philosophy, not half ass it.

KazaJhodoAug 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah when they removed things like that, and gutted Kassadin, everything else became fair game in my eyes. They need to go all the way with the counterplay philosophy, not half ass it.

Absolutely. They do have bigger fish to fry atm though. Overall balance period, and fixing the terrible matchmaking. I can't even play the game in its current state right now. Games are radically inconsistent.

RanmaruAug 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I'm with you, skill game please.

No point and click cc. Gimme my counter-play.

I don't understand how you can take a point and click stun from taric, but leave similar things on other champs. Like annie, the counterplay is to stay away.... ok. Sounds like fun.

Because annie cant use it whenever she wants the counterplay is watch under her health bar? mmk got it?

KazaJhodoAug 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because annie cant use it whenever she wants the counterplay is watch under her health bar? mmk got it?

Was that supposed to be a counter argument?

Your only chance of trading in lane is if she uses stun to farm. Otherwise you can't get close and she can do whatever she wants in lane depending on jungles.

Sure, there is counterplay AFTER she uses it- or before she has it stacked. YET, all she has to do is stay back to eliminate that weakness. Her q range is huge, so she takes no penalties for that weakness. If she wasn't able to farm during that time, that would be more reasonable, that would be an actual weakness.

If she has flash up you can't walk into lane. If you don't know where the enemy jungle is you can't contest anything, one stun hit and you ded. Point and click from a mile away.

Just, sit down, mmk got it? I can't believe you actually thought you had outplayed. ffs

RanmaruAug 4, 20181 votes

Annie how do you feel about annie q?

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

The ability by itself is not a huge offender because it's a low CD, low burst ability. The AP ratio is a little bit high but there are still many things that are more problematic.

Annie's kit as a whole is a moderate offender because her rotation is extremely clean and reliable. It's easy for her to instantly kill a target with almost no counterplay (tiny delays on W and R make them flashable but otherwise there's no much you can do) However, I only consider her kit as a whole a moderate offender because she has no built in mobility and low cast ranges, so positioning matters a lot for her and her opponents.

I find reliable burst to be more of a problem on champions with high mobility because there is basically no positioning based counterplay. Instead the counterplay has to be somewhere else. In a lot of those cases because of their item and rune options, it leaves me wondering where the counterplay is.

Ideally I wish Annie would get a small rework (think like Warwick's rework) but there are bigger problems.

ZezockaryAug 4, 20181 votes

Veigar I agree. Just make my ult an aoe projectile that goes over minions and we are square.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

Executes shouldn't be considered "reliable" though because first you have to get the target low. If you have a reliable means to achieve that condition, then the true offender is whatever reliable means you have to get them into execute range.

Nut on my ButtAug 4, 20181 votes

As a Vel'Koz main, you should be happy about targetted cc/burst keeping mobile champs in check, while at the same time countering champs like Liss and Annie who use it with your range.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

This is not the case when it's a mobile champ with reliable burst from items which is currently pretty much every mobile champ, regardless of whether it's AP or AD.

Warlord RhinarkAug 4, 20181 votes

As a Kayle main, this makes me cry.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

You don't want to know what I think about Kayle.

BEK MakadurAug 4, 20181 votes

Only skillshot champs is completely stupid. Every yasuo would love to get these changes.

It just breaks the game. Also it is completely dumb for new players.

Without point and click cc some champs would just be way to strong and if nerfed just completely useless e.g. yi, tryn. Also every champ with an enhanced aa would have to be changed, you want a game with mages only?...

If you rly want a skillshot game play smite...

KazaJhodoAug 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Only skillshot champs is completely stupid. Every yasuo would love to get these changes.

It just breaks the game. Also it is completely dumb for new players.

Without point and click cc some champs would just be way to strong and if nerfed just completely useless e.g. yi, tryn. Also every champ with an enhanced aa would have to be changed, you want a game with mages only?...

If you rly want a skillshot game play smite...

Well, yeah. It should be point and click ranged stuns. Those should go. Melee stuns are fine.

I had just assumed that was the idea. We're not eliminating stuns completely, just point and click ranged. Point and click itself implies that its ranged.

BEK MakadurAug 4, 20181 votes

Some easy and reliable stuns need to be in the game, not only for below gold/plat/dia players but also to counter heavy mobilty and high dmg champs or just fed ones. On the other hand point and click cc ofc shouldn't be as long as skill cc. Unless its the only thing a champ does.

KazaJhodoAug 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Some easy and reliable stuns need to be in the game, not only for below gold/plat/dia players but also to counter heavy mobilty and high dmg champs or just fed ones. On the other hand point and click cc ofc shouldn't be as long as skill cc. Unless its the only thing a champ does.

I agree that stuns should exist. I do not agree they need to be easy and reliable.

My main thing is what you said, long range point and click stuns.

I would even take that further and say that long range, large area hitting shots of any sort should also not exist. LIke fizz ult, zoe stun, zyra ult. Where as syndra stuns I don't have an issue with because they require setup and can be visually outplayed.

KhristophorosAug 4, 20181 votes

I'm really just saying they should nerf reliable and easy burst. If the champ can simply gap close across the screen and 100-0 a target with no counterplay, that's stupid.

BEK MakadurAug 4, 20181 votes

Your first part in the post says something different.

On that I do agree unless the person is far ahead and against a target without a defensive item e.g. adcs.