Confirmed Shyvana changes incoming!

Mira Arya Enthe·Oct 18, 2016·35 votes·8,085 views

http://i.imgur.com/SiOmwdf.png

Vibrates with anticipation

And she deserves it. She was completely missed in the Juggernaut update.

63 Comments

Bottom LanerOct 18, 201624 votes

exploration into Shyvana

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CarameI FrappeOct 18, 201611 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn] was worth the wait. Knew someone would make a joke about that line.

Keira HelshOct 19, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Huck Me Farder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bj78lEp4,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-10-18T22:38:57.661+0000)

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Summoner name checks out.

GáyChúngüsOct 19, 20161 votes

This isn't relevant to the shyvana topic, but I played a game against you the other day

PapaGreg21Oct 19, 20164 votes

I am cautiously optimistic. After the Devourer removal, the gift of the new Guinsoos (which nobody buys on her), AP buffs and R cooldown buffs were all over the map and somewhat confusing as compensation for the removal of the twin bite damage.

Valor BotOct 18, 20163 votes

I guess this means it's safe to say the Diver class update is next.

Mira Arya EntheOct 18, 20168 votes

Shyvana is a Juggernaut according to Riot. They missed her in the Juggernaut rework.

Valor BotOct 18, 20162 votes

Oh! My bad.

LirikOct 18, 20162 votes

can't wait she is currently my most played champ this year.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bj78lEp4,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-18T19:10:21.646+0000)

Shyvana is a Juggernaut according to Riot. They missed her in the Juggernaut rework.

She's one of those juggernauts that get somewhat dangerously close to other classes, but keeps a foot in the juggernaut class. Almost like a half-breed of sorts (rofl). When devourer was running rampant, she was basically a somewhat tankier master yi.

MavenSongOct 18, 20164 votes

actually to me shes pretty much a juggernaught, she's tanky, has damage, and her only cc is her Ult which is only a bit of a displacmeent.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

actually to me shes pretty much a juggernaught, she's tanky, has damage, and her only cc is her Ult which is only a bit of a displacmeent.

She is a bit more damagey than most juggernauts and a bit less tanky.

She also lacks any innate sustain, which is a vital component to literally every single juggernaut in the game.

Darius Garen Mordekaiser Olaf Nasus Yorick Volibear Trundle Udyr Illaoi All have innate sustain. Shyvana has NOTHING in that regard. She is literally the ONLY juggernaut to not have innate sustain.

When every single champion in a certain class has a particular trait, it can be argued as a trait necessary for truly being in that class. Riot classified her as a juggernaut, but she's really on the fringe of the juggernaut spectrum. Like I said, she comes out to being a slightly tankier but slightly less damaging master yi in her current state.

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

The reason why Shyv's kind of not really a Juggernaut is that she has a 1000 range dash. The next longest range dash on a Juggernaut is under 200 on Illaoi. Shyvana can close a gap over 5x longer than the next best Juggernaut at that role, practically it's probably even higher than 5x due to how AA range works.

GULAG 4 UOct 19, 20161 votes

She didn't have yi's dps nor mobility doe

GULAG 4 UOct 19, 20161 votes

She could be a diver tbh? Her ult does the diving job very well if it wasn't... buggy like mordekaiser....

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 201615 votes

These possible changes are unconnected to a class update. We also generally see Shyvana as more of a juggernaut than a diver.

Chromatic EagleOct 18, 20163 votes

Why exactly?

It Hertz When IPOct 18, 20162 votes

I'm not Riot, but I would assume it's because her ult is mostly a gapcloser and she lacks any CC in her kit to follow up on a kit.

RiotMeddlerOct 18, 201614 votes

Lack of a gap closer on a basic ability, more sustained damage pattern than most divers, CC light relative to Diver norms.

Malicious MetalOct 18, 20165 votes

On the topic of Juggernauts. Will you be doing similar touch-ups to Garen and Morde seeing that Nasus already got some buffs and you're planning on giving Shyvana some love?

Tychusfindlay919Oct 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Bj78lEp4,comment-id=00020001000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-18T23:44:57.364+0000)

On the topic of Juggernauts. Will you be doing similar touch-ups to Garen and Morde seeing that Nasus already got some buffs and you're planning on giving Shyvana some love?

Garen especially, I honestly believe mordekaiser himself is in a better spot than the G man. Playing Garen right now feels like absolute shit.

DeathBurstOct 19, 20161 votes

Welll, absolute sh*t is a bit extreme, I'm still at 57% winrate. But I would agree he is currently in a bad spot, since I lost 5 points of winrate down from 62% earlier in the season.

Samflash3Oct 19, 20161 votes

Is (current) Urgot a juggernaut by that logic?

DeathBurstOct 19, 20161 votes

I don't think so. His durability is a bit low, his effective range is a bit high, and he don't really like being in the thick of things. Doesn't feel like a Juggernaut, to me.

xxxDogmanxxxOct 19, 20161 votes

Sorry about this... BUT WHAT ABOUT XIN ZHAO, MEDDLER?!

Shyvana has ranged poke, Xin Zhao has nothing. Shyvana is so much tankier than Xin Zhao. Xin has no real CC either, and his damage can't really even match most divers even with Fervor not yet nerfed. He can't even tank that much more damage compared to an ADC, and his ult stun and damage is completely unreliable and nearly non-existent.

Why is Shyvana getting some love but Xin Zhao gets nerfed over and over again since the devastating 6.4 AS nerf??

DeathBurstOct 19, 20161 votes

What, what what ?!

Xin has a gap closer on a basic ability, a bump (= hard CC) on a basic ability, and with equal amounts of Gold, his damage is totally on-par with Shyv's damage. His only drawback compare to Shyv is that he is indeed far less tanky. (And even that, if he is ahead, his on-hit healing helps him a lot.)

GusdelOct 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lack of a gap closer on a basic ability, more sustained damage pattern than most divers, CC light relative to Diver norms.

So she virtually has no reliable CC. Her ult is hard to land and bugged and only applies the CC half the time when it does land giving the player like a 75% to miss her CC

Mira Arya EntheOct 18, 20161 votes

I appreciate the input yet again. I'm on a roll today :D!

Only thing I ask, because I trust you all about 90% again after seeing the assassin reworks(Malz rework wounded me a bit ;P). Is that you don't make anything in her kit too unsymmetrical. I love Diana and Riven but some of their skills send me into an OCD panic attack when I play them.

I am so excited! Any possibility of a model update or anything visual?

LankPantsOct 18, 20162 votes

My opinion is that it makes shit all sense to consider a champion with one of the longest range dashes in the game as a Juggernaut. The only logical thing to class her as is a Diver.

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

The thing about divers is that they tend to be almost assassin-like in their playstyle. Since they're all about diving into the enemy team and killing a priority target, they tend to have a decent amount of CC and burst damage to lock the target down and kill them quickly before the enemy team collapses on top of the diver and kills them.

Shyvana has neither of those things. Her damage is all sustained and she has no CC whatsoever other than a very slight knockback that often does more to help a target escape than to lock them down. Like a juggernaut, she's also extraordinarily vulnerable to kiting. Even once she dashes onto the target, there isn't much she can do to actually stay there, and she only gets the one dash since its her ultimate, while many divers are more mobile than that especially in a prolonged engagement.

LankPantsOct 19, 20162 votes

The thing about divers is that they tend to be almost assassin-like in their playstyle.

J4 and Hec are both divers and they both have a similar bruiser playstyle to Shyvana.

they tend to have a decent amount of CC and burst damage to lock the target down and kill them quickly before the enemy team collapses on top of the diver and kills them.

There are plenty of divers who have entirely sustained damage, just going to copy a list of them here

Vi Xin Zhao Nocturne Pantheon Jarvan Wukong Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim Lee Sin Irelia Aatrox Evelynn Diana

All of the bolded ones are mostly sustained damage. The Italics are a mix of sustained and burst. Divers are overwhelmingly a sustained damage class.

So what it comes down to is CC vs Mobility. CC is peripheral to the diver class. There are divers with very low levels of CC. Evelynn has a slow, one slow. Diana only has her pull. Noct only has his fear. WW only has his long CD ult. Shyv's knockback fits fine here, it's about the same as Diana's pull or Eve's slow.

On the other hand Juggernauts do not have mobility at all. The next longest ranged dash on a Juggernaut is Illaoi. Think about that. Which group does she actually fit better into with that in mind?

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

J4 and Hec are both divers and they both have a similar bruiser playstyle to Shyvana.

There are plenty of divers who have entirely sustained damage, just going to copy a list of them here Xin Zhao Nocturne Pantheon Jarvan Wukong Warwick Renekton Elise Hecarim Lee Sin Irelia Aatrox Evelynn Diana

All of the bolded ones are mostly sustained damage. The Italics are a mix of sustained and burst. Divers are overwhelmingly a sustained damage class.

Evelynn and Xin Zhao should both be in italics, as both of them are fully capable of bursting somebody the fuck down, and Hecarim and Warwick are both closer to hybrids than pure divers. Furthermore, one of the primary differences between assassins and divers is that once the target is down, the assassin is squishy and more mobile and typically needs to disengage from the fight, while a diver is tankier but lacks tools to get out, forcing them to stand and fight. That's usually where the sustained damage comes in, after the target they were diving onto is dead. That's why the burst is typically of a higher priority than the sustained damage, and it's why the majority of them, even on that list, have solid burst that Shyv doesn't have.

But you're right, there are a few of them who are also pretty heavy on sustain, so let's look at CC.

So what it comes down to is CC vs Mobility. CC is peripheral to the diver class. There are divers with very low levels of CC. Evelynn has a slow, one slow. Diana only has her pull. Noct only has his fear. WW only has his long CD ult. Shyv's knockback fits fine here, it's about the same as Diana's pull or Eve's slow.

It absolutely does not fit fine. ALL of those divers, each and every one of them, has more CC than Shyvana does except for Evelynn, and Evelynn is supposed to be an assassin but is currently classified as a diver because her kit is fucked up and she's in desperate need of a VGU. Even Diana's E is more CC than Shyvana's ult since the pull has more control over it than Shyv's tiny knockback while also applying a decent slow, having a lower CD, and combines with Diana's dash ALSO having a lower CD letting her dive both more consistently and more frequently. Nocturne's fear is a solid 2.25 seconds at max rank which is good sized CC duration, and WW's ult is pretty much instant death on somebody who's out of position. They may not have a LOT of CC, but a diver's CC is undeniably effective; because it's not peripheral, it's a requirement for them to get the job done.

On the other hand Juggernauts do not have mobility at all. The next longest ranged dash on a Juggernaut is Illaoi. Think about that. Which group does she actually fit better into with that in mind?

Still Juggernauts, because that dash is making up for the fact that, even amongst Juggernauts, a class which is known for having really weak CC, Shyvana still gets the shitty end of the stick. Darius has his grab, Garen can slow/silence, Trundle has pillars, Olaf (another juggernaut who's in a kind of hybrid diver/juggernaut scenario with Shyv) can chain slows with his axes, Udyr stuns, Mundo chain slows with cleavers, Nasus has goddamned Wither, and Skarner...

Skarner is in fact the best demonstration of the following fact: Even amongst champions sharing a class, there are differences that make them better or worse at specific things, that give them a niche that makes them unique. Skarner's an example of a juggernaut who has way more CC than he should for his class. That's his niche. That's the category Shyvana's dash falls into, that's her niche. She is better than other juggernauts at actually getting to her target because of it, but at the cost of being one of the ones who has the hardest time sticking to them once she gets there because only Mordekaiser has less CC than she does.

The difference that makes Shyvana a juggernaut with a dash and not a diver with no CC, is that a diver with no CC can't do its job right and is fundamentally flawed from a design standpoint.

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

That's why the burst is typically of a higher priority than the sustained damage, and it's why the majority of them, even on that list, have solid burst that Shyv doesn't have.

If you know how to AA rest properly with Shyv she does have solid burst. R+E+AA+Hydra reset+Q reset does a fuck ton of damage in about 1 second. It's actually more than a champ like WW or Aatrox can put out.

Even Diana's E is more CC than Shyvana's ult since the pull has more control over it than Shyv's tiny knockback while also applying a decent slow, having a lower CD, and combines with Diana's dash ALSO having a lower CD letting her dive both more consistently and more frequently.

It's also far less powerful than Shyv's ult as a CC. Shyv's ult (when it works) is a far more impactful spell since the knockback is far longer and the AOE is big enough to catch most if not all of the enemy team. All Riot needs to do is fix the ult so it works correctly and Shyv would be right in line with the low CC end of the divers.

If Riot wanted to maintain Shyvana's playstlye with buffs the best way to do it IMO would be to fix her ult's knockback, make her immune to CC while ulting and give her a Vayne stlye stun against walls. This would make Shyvana scarier in invades, better at running away in the jungle and make her ult not clunky as hell. It just seems like the best way to deal with her to me and it would push her more towards the diver class.

Skarner is in fact the best demonstration of the following fact: Even amongst champions sharing a class, there are differences that make them better or worse at specific things, that give them a niche that makes them unique. Skarner's an example of a juggernaut who has way more CC than he should for his class. That's his niche. That's the category Shyvana's dash falls into, that's her niche. She is better than other juggernauts at actually getting to her target because of it, but at the cost of being one of the ones who has the hardest time sticking to them once she gets there because only Mordekaiser has less CC than she does.

Skarner is listed as a Vanguard. So this really isn't relevant, in fact it's detrimental to what you're trying to prove.

The difference that makes Shyvana a juggernaut with a dash and not a diver with no CC, is that a diver with no CC can't do its job right and is fundamentally flawed from a design standpoint.

Now you're arguing on semantics, because Shyvana is a diver without CC regardless of what you classify her as. Even if you want to call her a Juggernaut me defining her as a diver with no CC is still an apt description. She's a champion who, if given CC would fit perfectly into the diver class, and therefore is a diver without CC.

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Skarner is listed as a Vanguard. So this really isn't relevant, in fact it's detrimental to what you're trying to prove.

Skarner was updated as part of the juggernaut update, so I labelled him as such. But if you would prefer we use that list since it's more up to date, sure, we can do that.

Juggernauts

Nasus

Darius

Mordekaiser

Illaoi

Trundle

Olaf

Garen

** Shyvana**

Udyr

Dr. Mundo

Volibear

Yorick

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

I'm arguing against that specific placement, so that list isn't really usable as an ultimate debunking tool against my argument.

If you want to argue why Skarner is a Juggernaut go ahead, there's plenty of actual reason why he's a Vanguard and not a Juggernaut. He has 2 hard CC abilities, one of which is potentially AOE. Sure he has high damage but it's not in a Juggernaut pattern, it's more in a high damage Vanguard pattern similar to Sej or Amumu, lots of damage with very low focus. If you want me to continue arguing this I can, Skarner fits very well into the Vanguard class or a Vanguard/Diver Hybrid class which could potentially exist containing Amumu DrMundo Hecarim Rammus RekSai Renekton Sejuani Shyvana Skarner and Zac , since these champs dispersed across 3 classes are all surprisingly similar.

On the other hand Shyvana's placement is far more arguable. She has something that's clearly not at all present on any other Juggernaut, her dash is about 5x longer than the next longest on a Juggernaut and there are only two others in the class who even have dashes (Illaoi and Udyr) and they're both under 200 range. Shyvana's ult range is 1000.

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

If you would argue that specific placement in the list, than any other placement on the list becomes just as malleable.

You could argue that Skarner's damage output is too high for a Vanguard. Ashe has long-range initiation, which no other marksman has, would you argue that she's not a marksman because of it? Ekko has way more utility than any assassin (which he's being included in as part of the assassin update), but also way more than any Skirmisher (which he's listed on that list as). Lissandra and Ahri both have dashes/mobility, which no other burst mage has. You could make the argument that maybe Ahri should be an assassin since her mobility is so high and that's how she was originally presented, but could you honestly make the same argument for Lissandra? I mean, she has mobility so clearly she can't be a burst mage since they're not supposed to have that.

Every class has a character or two that pushes the boundaries of what that class is actually supposed to do, because otherwise it's more difficult to keep the characters in that class from being homogenous. Just because a champion has an ability that falls outside of the typical skillset of that class, doesn't mean that's not where they belong.

Shyvana has a skill that would be typically associated with being a diver. However, even in that skill, she lacks the consistency and effectiveness of an actual diver. Meanwhile she has the same damage profile and vulnerabilities as a juggernaut. Riot has classified her as a juggernaut with some diver attributes, and I would agree with them. To make Shyvana a diver who's actually good at the job would require more substantial changes to her kit.

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

You could argue that Skarner's damage output is too high for a Vanguard.

Low damage isn't part of the Vanguard class. This is a class that contains Amumu, Sejuani and Zac, there's plenty of high damage Vanguards.

Ekko has way more utility than any assassin (which he's being included in as part of the assassin update), but also way more than any Skirmisher (which he's listed on that list as).

Current Ekko's best fit is either Diver or Vanguard, probably Diver. He's getting changed in the preseason though and Riot's explicitly stated that the want to align him more with Skirmishers.

Lissandra and Ahri both have dashes/mobility, which no other burst mage has.

Where else do you put them? I'd make an argument that Ahri could be a Skirmisher and Liss could be a Disrupter but neither of these placements are really better than Burst Mage for either.

Shyvana has a skill that would be typically associated with being a diver. However, even in that skill, she lacks the consistency and effectiveness of an actual diver. Meanwhile she has the same damage profile and vulnerabilities as a juggernaut.

All of Shyvana's skills align with Divers. There are divers with durability steroids. There are divers with on-hit AA resets. There are divers with MS steroids and AOE damage spells. Her E is the most generic thing ever. There are Divers with long ranged dashes, although few as long as Shyvana. Why wouldn't you put Shyvana in the Diver class, she doesn't seem to break any rules and seems to fit very well overall.

Riot has classified her as a juggernaut with some diver attributes, and I would agree with them. To make Shyvana a diver who's actually good at the job would require more substantial changes to her kit.

Riot fucks up quite a lot. I argue against them when I believe they have fucked up. I have been correct on several occasions, incorrect on several too.Don't just take what Riot says at face value 100% of the time. They have been wrong before and will be wrong again.

go commit dieOct 19, 20162 votes

Skarner deals a lot of sustained damage. While zac and amumu are capable of dealing good amounts of damage, skarners empowered autos from his spires plus the fact that most skarner builds squeeze in a sheen item and maybe another damage item means he outdamages them all typically.

Divers (Examples: Vi, Xin Zhao), also inaccurately known as bruisers, are the most well-rounded of fighters: while not as tough as heavy juggernauts or as loaded with damage as light skirmishers, divers blend the best of both worlds, mixing in natural toughness and damage with powerful bursts of mobility. While still short-ranged overall, divers excel at entering fights and initiating combat, though once in they have only their natural defenses to protect them against incoming damage. Divers tend to build equal parts damage and defense, allowing them to remain a constant threat without sacrificing too much survivability.

Shyvana gets really tanky. Divers are not really that tanky, as they really like damage items. Shyvana builds like bloodrazer and titanic and thats it, any other damage items are bought because the enemy team lacks damage anyway. Her mobility is really limited, since her ult cooldown is still rather high for her only engage and dash, and her w boost will only be significant if shyv can continue to hit something. Shyvana has more mobility than most juggernauts to compensate her lack of reliable cc and more sustained damage (sure morde has no mobility or cc but he only needs to land 3 q-empowered autos to kill someone)

Simply put, shyvana is too tanky to be a diver, and her mobility, while better than most juggernauts, is not consistent and reliable enough for her to really dive someone. Plus while most divers are auto-reliant they still have some burst in their abilities to melt hp faster. Shyvana has zero burst.

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

Skarner deals a lot of sustained damage. While zac and amumu are capable of dealing good amounts of damage, skarners empowered autos from his spires plus the fact that most skarner builds squeeze in a sheen item and maybe another damage item means he outdamages them all typically.

That's factually incorrect. Skarner is one of the lowest damage junglers on average, bellow Sejuani, Amumu and Zac. It's also not that uncommon for Amumu and Zac to buy into AP as a stat, so I really don't understand what you're trying to argue here, it seems weak at best.

Shyvana gets really tanky. Divers are not really that tanky, as they really like damage items.

Yeh, Shyvana hates damage items, it's not like Shyvana builds items like Bloodrazor, Titanic Hydra and BotRK commonly.

Her mobility is really limited, since her ult cooldown is still rather high for her only engage and dash, and her w boost will only be significant if shyv can continue to hit something.

Congratulations, you just described not only Shyvana, but also Nocturne, Hecarim and WW.

Simply put, shyvana is too tanky to be a diver, and her mobility, while better than most juggernauts, is not consistent and reliable enough for her to really dive someone.

It's not like there's other tanky divers like J4, Hecarim and Renekton is it?

Plus while most divers are auto-reliant they still have some burst in their abilities to melt hp faster. Shyvana has zero burst.

Shyvana has no way to burst, her E-R-AA-Hydra-Q combo that almost every Shyvana player uses isn't burst, it actually heals the enemy.

I'm sorry but I can't take your argument seriously, there's so many holes to be poked in it.

go commit dieOct 20, 20161 votes

Yeh, Shyvana hates damage items, it's not like Shyvana builds items like Bloodrazor, Titanic Hydra and BotRK commonly.

Well heck, I never build all three. Maybe if im ahead. Also, i consider titanic a tank item, because of the health scaling and stats. I suppose darius doesn't build tank because if you get ahead you will squeeze a sterak, titanic and black cleaver in a build, which all provide damage. If titanic is a damage item then steraks and black cleaver must be also.

It's not like there's other tanky divers like J4, Hecarim and Renekton is it?

Most J4s i see nowadays build mostly AD for some reason. And renekton and hecarim are considered divers because they possess good mobility, and more burst damage. They specialise in pinning down particular targets and destroying them, tank or not, while shyvana just jumps into a fight and destroys anything nearby with her mixed damage. She can't dive someone because she doesn't have the cc renekton and hecarim possess or their mobility.

Congratulations, you just described not only Shyvana, but also Nocturne, Hecarim and WW.

Ok first of all hecarim e speed boost is frickin ridiculous and it also has a dash attached to it. His ult is unstoppable so he is far more reliable at diving someone than shyvana would ever be

Nocturne ult is long-range point and click, plus he has his fear for lockdown and q for stickyness. He has more cc and better mobility, plus he does what a diver should do, "dive" a target and kill them.

Same deal with ww. His ult is a blink, so good luck stopping that. Plus it also suppresses the target.

Shyvana has little stickyness and basically no cc. These are the downsides of a juggernaut. Shyvana has high damage and high tankyness. These are the upsides of a juggernaut. Renekton has good stickyness and his w stun is good lockdown. These are the upsides of a diver. Renekton doesn't have good sustained damage, and is only good at focusing single targets. These are the downsides of a diver.

Riot lists her as a juggernaut, so whether or not im convincing you she is one, just go talk to riot and they'll tell you why.

Oh wait they already did.

Lack of a gap closer on a basic ability, more sustained damage pattern than most divers, CC light relative to Diver norms.

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Low damage isn't part of the Vanguard class. This is a class that contains Amumu, Sejuani and Zac, there's plenty of high damage Vanguards.

Sejuani and Zac are not high damage, and Amumu only deals damage if he builds AP, in which case he typically plays more like a mage.

Current Ekko's best fit is either Diver or Vanguard, probably Diver. He's getting changed in the preseason though and Riot's explicitly stated that the want to align him more with Skirmishers.

I've seen no such explicit mention. Outside of that list, they usually state the goal with him is to be an assassin with less damage but more utility than average, aka the assassin version of Ashe.

Where else do you put them? I'd make an argument that Ahri could be a Skirmisher and Liss could be a Disrupter but neither of these placements are really better than Burst Mage for either.

I wouldn't put them anywhere, I'm using them as an example of how having an ability outside of the class's typical repertoire doesn't mean they're suddenly a different class.

All of Shyvana's skills align with Divers. There are divers with durability steroids. There are divers with on-hit AA resets. There are divers with MS steroids and AOE damage spells. Her E is the most generic thing ever. There are Divers with long ranged dashes, although few as long as Shyvana. Why wouldn't you put Shyvana in the Diver class, she doesn't seem to break any rules and seems to fit very well overall.

The signature of a class is not what their skills do, it's what their kit does when working in unison. It's not that Shyvana's kit breaks the rules of being a diver, it's that it can't get the job done. Again, a diver dives into the back line, sticks to a target, and locks them down in order to kill them quickly. Shyvana can neither lock down a target nor stick to it because she lacks CC and is too easily kited. By contrast Nocturne is going to jump in there, wreck the enemy's vision and pop spell shield so they can't peel him easily, and fear the target while tearing him apart. Vi is going to ult them, knock them up, burst them with her W and E passive procs, and Q them if they're either going to get away or need another brief moment of interruption. Jarvan is gonna pass through them and knock them up, then trap them in his ult. Diana's gonna dash on top of them and drag all the enemies in and slow them for her team to ideally wombo combo them. Hecarim's gonna ult in to fear them and scatter the enemy team apart to make him harder to peel while knocking the target around with his E. Etc.

By contrast, Shyvana's gonna dive in there, and her target's going to just walk away from her because she has no way to hold them still. If she tries to W to follow, she's probably going to get slowed or CC'd and lose the duration on her MS boost, and then she's gonna just casually walk forward being kited to death. Alternatively, she's going to just turn around and start punching whoever she's actually able to reach while trying to work her way through them the hard way to eventually reach the carries, which is the primary combat pattern for juggernauts.

Riot fucks up quite a lot. I argue against them when I believe they have fucked up. I have been correct on several occasions, incorrect on several too.Don't just take what Riot says at face value 100% of the time. They have been wrong before and will be wrong again.

I'm not taking everything they say at face value. I didn't say 'they're obviously correct', I said 'I agree with their decision'. It has nothing to do with Shyvana sharing a few basic attributes with divers and everything to do with her lacking the fundamental tools a diver requires to do its job decently. To be an effective diver, she would either require some form of hard CC, or some sort of 'I can not be kited' button.

LankPantsOct 19, 20161 votes

Divers are the more mobile portion of the Fighter class. Divers excel at singling out high-priority targets to blitz toward, immediately forcing those targets (and their teammates) to deal with the diver’s presence. Divers are not as durable as the tanks or juggernauts of the world, but Divers can take their fair share of punishment while bringing enough damage to be a real kill threat if left unchecked.

This is Riot's definition of a diver. Nowhere does it mention CC or lockdown of any kind. It simply states that they

Have an ability to close on a single target ✓
Immediately force a reaction ✓
Can single out high priory targets ✓
Bring enough damage to be a kill threat ✓
Are not as tanky as a true tank -

That last one is questionable, but it's also defendable when you look at other divers. Arguably J4, Renekton and Hecarim are all about as tanky as Shyvana and they are all divers. Let's contrast that to the juggernaut class.

Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility.

March down targets -
Excel at taking and dealing damage ✓
Tough time closing due to limited mobility X
Low Range ✓

Shyvana flat out breaks one of the tenets of being a Juggernaut. Admittedly some of parts of these definitions are bullshit, for example 'They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage' seems to ignore that the diver subclass exists and does excel at both of these things, just to a lesser degree than juggernauts.

Sejuani and Zac are not high damage, and Amumu only deals damage if he builds AP, in which case he typically plays more like a mage.

Have you read what Sej's and Zac's Ws do, ever? These are some really high damage abilities, I play Sej and just the DoT on her W can get up towards 1k damage lategame. It is a high damage ability, it's actually one of the highest damage abilities on any tank or bruiser in the game, hell it out damages Shyvana's W most of the time.

As for Skarner outdamageing Zac, Amumu and Sej the stats just don't agree with that. Skarner has one of the lowest damages per game out of any jungler.

The signature of a class is not what their skills do, it's what their kit does when working in unison. It's not that Shyvana's kit breaks the rules of being a diver, it's that it can't get the job done. Again, a diver dives into the back line, sticks to a target, and locks them down in order to kill them quickly. Shyvana can neither lock down a target nor stick to it because she lacks CC and is too easily kited. By contrast Nocturne is going to jump in there, wreck the enemy's vision and pop spell shield so they can't peel him easily, and fear the target while tearing him apart. Vi is going to ult them, knock them up, burst them with her W and E passive procs, and Q them if they're either going to get away or need another brief moment of interruption. Jarvan is gonna pass through them and knock them up, then trap them in his ult. Diana's gonna dash on top of them and drag all the enemies in and slow them for her team to ideally wombo combo them. Hecarim's gonna ult in to fear them and scatter the enemy team apart to make him harder to peel while knocking the target around with his E. Etc.

If Shyv's ult wasn't uninterruptible do you think she'd be that easy to peel. You can knock back Vi, J4 and Nocturne after their ults end, it's not always enough. Shyvana's problem is that you can knock her out of ult. If she was guarenteed an ult she'd also get around 4 AAs off because you can reset AAs really quick as Shyv and that makes your W last a long arse time.

I'm really hoping that this is the direction they go in as well, because it's just a logical one to follow. As I said, fix the ult, make it uninterruptible and let Shyv stun against walls for a short duration. That would fix the majority of her issues and make her a strong diver while leaving the few Juggernaut traits she has in tact.

GixiaOct 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

This is Riot's definition of a diver. Nowhere does it mention CC or lockdown of any kind. It simply states that they

Have an ability to close on a single target ✓

Immediately force a reaction ✓

Can single out high priory targets X

Bring enough damage to be a kill threat ✓

Are not as tanky as a true tank -

That last one is questionable, but it's also defendable when you look at other divers. Arguably J4, Renekton and Hecarim are all about as tanky as Shyvana and they are all divers. Let's contrast that to the juggernaut class.

Fixed a little mistake for you. Shyvana has no ability to single out a high priority target. Singling someone out would imply the ability to either scatter the enemy team away from a target, or CC them to prevent them from regrouping with their team. I.e. This is where the 'locking a target down' part that I mentioned as being integral to a diver working would come in. Her ult doesn't single a target out, if anything it tends to help group the enemy team together, but without the slow or half-second pull that Diana would have to make for a decent wombo initiation.

I'd also argue that J4 doesn't really build that tanky, though Renekton and Hecarim do. But then, I'd also argue that Renekton and Hecarim are more Diver/Vanguard hybrids than pure divers.

March down targets -

Excel at taking and dealing damage ✓

Tough time closing due to limited mobility X

Low Range ✓

Shyvana flat out breaks one of the tenets of being a Juggernaut. Admittedly some of parts of these definitions are bullshit, for example 'They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage' seems to ignore that the diver subclass exists and does excel at both of these things, just to a lesser degree than juggernauts.

I would argue that Shyvana DOES still have limited mobility because of her inability to stick to the target. Once she's used her ult, she has no other option but to march down a target. Also, Illaoi actually has pretty decent range with both her Q and her E. Not long range, but certainly not low range either. Does that mean she's not a juggernaut either?

Have you read what Sej's and Zac's Ws do, ever? These are some really high damage abilities, I play Sej and just the DoT on her W can get up towards 1k damage lategame. It is a high damage ability, it's actually one of the highest damage abilities on any tank or bruiser in the game, hell it out damages Shyvana's W most of the time.

I don't play Sejuani, but I've never seen one, either as an ally or an enemy, that can intimidate with her damage. Same goes for Zac.

If Shyv's ult wasn't uninterruptible do you think she'd be that easy to peel. You can knock back Vi, J4 and Nocturne after their ults end, it's not always enough. Shyvana's problem is that you can knock her out of ult. If she was guarenteed an ult she'd also get around 4 AAs off because you can reset AAs really quick as Shyv and that makes your W last a long arse time.

I will agree with you that, yes, you're right. If Shyvana's ult was uninterruptible, that would drastically increase her consistency, which in turn would make her much more effective as a diver.

Except it isn't so the point is moot.

I'm really hoping that this is the direction they go in as well, because it's just a logical one to follow. As I said, fix the ult, make it uninterruptible and let Shyv stun against walls for a short duration. That would fix the majority of her issues and make her a strong diver while leaving the few Juggernaut traits she has in tact.

On the contrary, that change would make no sense. Because if they did that, then Shyvana could actually be a diver. But she's not, she's a juggernaut. That's the way they've stated that they view her. That's literally the red post this discussion started in response to. So if they see her as a juggernaut, it would be illogical for them to make a change that would increase her effectiveness as a diver.

That change would be like if their solution to make Ekko less of a tank and more of a skirmisher/assassin was to give him more CC and base damage.

I mean who knows, maybe that is what they'll do with Shyvana, but it certainly wouldn't be logical.

If you want to talk about a logical decision, a logical change would be something like the following:

Shyvana's fury now decays outside of combat, but builds up quicker in combat. Dragon form now drastically increases her damage/survivability.

That kind of change would emphasize her juggernaut aspects by forcing her to go through the front line and build up her fury by fighting for a while before being able to go ham and dash in, similar to Darius having to stack bleeds before he can become a significant threat. It would also succeed in making dragon form feel more impactful by turning you into a raid boss once you pop it.

Would it be a good change? Probably not, I'm not a designer afterall. But if we're talking about what kind of change would make sense, it certainly makes much more sense than taking her in the opposite direction of what they've stated their intentions for her are.

GixiaOct 19, 20165 votes

If I may ask, why is it that Shyvana seems to cause so many problems for you guys?

Everytime in the past that Shyvana has become a popular choice in solo queue, or been viable in pro play, red posts have started talking about her kit being unhealthy and needing a minor rework. Then once she stops being flavour of the month, all that talk of changing her dies down, usually with no changes being done one way or another. On more than one occasion, crazy changes for her have appeared on the PBE, only to disappear pretty quickly. During the juggernaut update, Shyvana was apparently a major contender who just narrowly missed out, and (alongside Olaf) was supposed to get work later, only for that work to be called off when it was decided that Shyvana was more of a diver than a juggernaut... only to now be considered more of a juggernaut than a diver again.

I realize Shyvana's not the only champion to have issues like this come up, but I still can't help but wonder why it seems to be so difficult to figure out what to do with her. It genuinely feels like nobody can decide if she actually has problems or if she's totally fine. Just what is it about her kit that seems to cause so much trouble?

Hinagiku33Oct 19, 20161 votes

She's a melee sustained auto-attacker.

Riot's had some major trouble since Beta with that archetype. They tend to get absolutely destroyed in lane since they can't really poke or last-hit from range, eat tons of poke themselves, and have a hard time trading since they have lower burst and need to spend a while in melee range to deal decent damage.

This results in goofy things just to make them viable like Tryndamere's ult, Yi's Q and W, and Irelia's entire kit.

Shyvana seems to get a little bit of tankiness, but has no sustain to heal off the poke she takes and no CC to keep people in range long enough to win trades. So she either sucks in lane, or her damage numbers are high enough that she dominates.