MF changes are a nerf, lets call it what it is

Hexs Fortune·Oct 29, 2015·94 votes·9,272 views

Laning phase and dueling nerfs in exchange for situational bonus damage when target swapping in the middle of team fights.

ADC are supposed to worry first about staying alive and hitting the safest target. The love tap mechanic punishes proper play and encourages MF with no escapes to try to extend deeper into the team fight to target swap throughout the battle.

Her base stats along with her strut speed in laning are being nerfed.

The ult is now victim to RNG, aka crit dependent meaning weak early ( before crit items) and susceptible to bad luck if no crits late game.

Proper positioning is so very important to MF success as an adc with no escapes. It's plain counter productive to over extend in an attempt to 550 range auto attack multiple targets, instead of playing from the back line hitting the one safest target.

MF is in an incredibly good position right now, why destroy her over a forced gimmick love tap that doesn't even make sense within her role.

signed- a worried MF main

176 Comments

Earl EulrichOct 29, 201514 votes

+ they turn her into a generic-crit-builder

i really don´t like the direction.

Critmaster GarenOct 29, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BgbYgFFN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-10-29T11:38:29.098+0000)

+ they turn her into a generic-crit-builder

i really don´t like the direction.

every adc is a generic crit builder right now.

unless youre playing bruiser quinn or varus with an ad/cdr build, whats the difference? youre rushing infinity edge on mf and almost every other adc right now, and if you dont youre doing something wrong.

Earl EulrichOct 29, 201518 votes

actually, as MF is a strong lanebully with exceptional AD-scalings and mixed dmg (her magical-dmg doesn´t crit right now) it´s far better to rush BT (or even ER) and build a fairly AD-heavy build. right now she´s one of the few ADCs that can work out with standard-crit, AP and AD-caster-builds...alongside Ez and Corki. With the rwork all of this versatility will be gone and she´ll just be a regular at the church of RNGesus.

YfrappefortOct 29, 201514 votes

MF "buffs" are in fact nerfs? Nothing new here. They just don't want MF to be picked at all.

Battlecast SonaOct 29, 201513 votes

GUYS LETS IGNORE THAT THEY MADE HER ULTIMATE CRIT AND COMPLAIN ABOUT A CHANGE THAT WE HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO TRY OUT YET!

LET'S COMPLAIN ABOUT PRESEASON CHANGES BEFORE THEY'RE EVEN ON THE PBE FOR TESTING YET! THIS SEEMS LIKE A LEGITIMATELY GOOD USE OF TIME!

Seriously, do you people even PLAY this game, or do you just complain about upcoming changes?

Nunya BezwacksNov 1, 20151 votes

Actually they were put up that day. these people are just bitching tho the only retarded change is her new passive...i have more complaints about what they didn't change. then again i have actually played new MF and know what im talking about.

Battlecast SonaNov 2, 20151 votes

I like her new passive a lot. It helps her last hit a lot more reliably and scales into lategame better (because it's no longer bonus magic damage but bonus physical damage).

After playing it though her new ultimate is a net buff overall and definitely makes up for any perceived "nerfs" with the crit mechanics. It does way more damage than it's over done before, lol.

Nunya BezwacksNov 3, 20154 votes

last hitting wasn't even a problem unless your bad at farming at which point you shouldn't be playing the most gold reliant role in the game and her shit new passive doesn't help her scale into any point because if you try to use it you will get smashed by the front line while you struggle to swap targets.

Battlecast SonaNov 3, 20151 votes

Why not just hit the front line? You'd get smashed for trying to hit people behind them anyway, but it's unlikely that their team is 4 ranged and 1 melee.

Also, the most effective way to use her love tap in combination with her W is to plan out a couple of love tap resets and then swap to a main target. With only 2 targets you can give your W 2 additional seconds of duration to wail on someone with 120% ASPD, and it's pretty considerable amounts of damage even on a "frontline" target (especially if you have pen items). The love tap passive may do less damage over an entire fight overall, but they have used it to introduce some interplay between her abilities and give her a bit more of an identity. (Additionally for the sake of the argument, in a teamfight a double up and auto on your primary target will give you 3 seconds of additional time on her ASPD buff but that assumes they stand in such a way that a double up would connect with another unit - since the double up would love tap the person behind your target, you'd get two procs on your main target).

On top of all of this, HER ULTIMATE CAN CRIT NOW. Like, let's not gloss over that her ultimate (which just a few patches ago was a laughable farming tool/way to stack black cleaver) now has the capability to do a shitton of damage in a teamfight, WITH a "traditional" ADC build that gives MF crit chance/damage/etc so her AAs are strong. The Marksmen rework alone was a HUGE buff for MF, but they've also buffed some distinct parts of her kit. The playing field is gonna be pretty level when these changes come out between the ADCs.

Nunya BezwacksNov 4, 20154 votes

swapping between front line champs is the fastest way to get shit on by said front like if you cant deal with someone you cant kill and someone you can kill how are you going to deal with 2 people you cant kill.

also crits on an ult that takes 2+ seconds to use fully doesn't mean shit since they can just be Stunned, Feared, Taunted, Knocked-Up, Knocked-back, Flipped, Grabbed, Suppressed, Charmed, or the enemy can just buy item 3143 and nullify the damage since its only like 20% until 11 stop defending the rework like you know what your talking about.

TheXtractorOct 29, 201511 votes

You will actually have increased lane bullying power by constantly getting bonus damage when hitting the adc and the support, ESP when you land your Q correctly.

Pika310Oct 29, 201529 votes

She already had increased damage from Q adding stacks of Impure Shots. If anything, you'll be PUNISHED when you land it "correctly" now.

TheXtractorOct 29, 20156 votes

Why would you be punished when it procs the passive on both targets?

Pika310Oct 29, 20158 votes

Because you don't get stacks of Impure Shots, why must I reiterate what I already said just because you couldn't bother reading it?

TheXtractorOct 29, 20155 votes

And instead you get bonus damage from the new passive.

Pika310Oct 29, 201532 votes

Trade out a passive that gives consistent and reliable damage for a gimmicky situational one that is impractical in actual gameplay... Common sense calls that a nerf.

Earl EulrichOct 29, 201521 votes

unfortunatly common sense and Riot have parted ways since a quite a while...

TheXtractorOct 29, 201511 votes

Lets call everything that changes anything slightly a gimmick. Because that makes sense.

MF already had an idenity of being able to deal damage to multiple targets, she isn't a vayne that is like a super-single target champion. Her Q already made it so you wanted to do make sure you can hit the adc and the support at the same time. This passive will bring a new dynamic to her playstyle and (OH GOD) will make her different than the usual ad carries.

'situational' when you can proc it almost permanently in lane as long as there is like 1 minion close to your target or if the adc and support are together. Often enough in teamfights or brawls an adc will have to switch targets to make sure you stay alive (you can't go and chase a single target through everything after all). So I think it would be a cool interesting feature.

You also dont even know how strong it will be and what the numbers will be on her. So maybe just wait until you go call stupid shit.

Your posts based only off assumptions, wait until they actually release the update and play her and then maybe make an opinion.

Pika310Oct 29, 201514 votes

You also dont even know how strong it will be and what the numbers will be on her. So maybe just wait until you go call stupid shit.

It promotes a playstyle that is counter-intuitive to proper ADC targeting and positioning. Unless the numbers are obscenely overtuned, common sense already knows it's a nerf.

TheXtractorOct 29, 20155 votes

For laning phase (MF's strongest point) it already doesnt apply because during laning its actually great to poke the champs with auto's between farming so for MF laning its only better.

For teamfighting it might be a bit harder to keep procing your passive but your first priority for teamfighting is to stay alive and attack whatever is closest to you, often when people are trying to kill you and you are kiting back you won't be always targetting the same champion for more than 3 or so auto attacks if its a busy fight. Also you have your ult for wreckage in teamfights when properly used.

So it doesnt have to be nerf at all.

Pika310Oct 29, 20158 votes

so for MF laning its only better.

You can't say that. You're speculating that the numbers will actually be high enough to justify the change. Yet you chastised me for speculating the contrary, that's called hypocrisy.

So it doesnt have to be nerf at all.

It doesn't have to be, but logically it sounds like one and if Rito's patch history is any proof of balancing trends, especially concerning MF in particular, it WILL be.

TheXtractorOct 29, 20152 votes

True, we both dont know if it will be strong or not. So i guess this thread is kind of useless.

And about riot's History. Have you forgotten about the incredibly overtuned juggernauts they just released? Darius anyone? Perma ban GP and Mordekaiser anyone? Extremely strong Fiora anyone?

Pika310Oct 29, 20157 votes

Have you forgotten the countless unjustified nerfs that have forced already under-performing champions into states of complete unplayability?

3.14
4.13
5.1
5.16
5.20

Under-powered champions have died in each of these patches and that's only a few of the many examples.

TheXtractorOct 29, 20153 votes

They have a history of both ruining champions or making them waay to strong. Lets flip dat coin shall we :D

Pika310Oct 29, 201511 votes

{quoted}

I still believe that a change in playstyle is not a nerf. we dont know if its a nerf or buff until we see what kind of numbers riot puts behind it and how it works in actual games.

They want an ADC to split their focus between multiple targets as opposed to trying to burst down 1 person at a time. They want her to leave as many enemies alive as possible so she has multiple people to maximize her damage potential. Meanwhile, the enemy is going to be dropping whoever they want as fast as they can.

Rito is LITERALLY designing MF for failure.

PoskeOct 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Trade out a passive that gives consistent and reliable damage for a gimmicky situational one that is impractical in actual gameplay... Common sense calls that a nerf.

To be fair live MF is hidden op

Last ultimate buff made her quite insane .. i myself abused it a bit quite sure she is one of the best ADC now

Luckly people dont know

But then again people realised ap skarner is broken nowdays... its only a time until they realise mf is op So if the changes are a nerf ......... its well deserved

Rework is not about power of champion

ITS about direction MF is supposed to be AOE Bullet spray adc

she isnt supposed to be good 1vs1 She is supposed to be good at spreading dmg hence why they probably gave her that swap targets.. steroid thingy

Pika310Oct 29, 20156 votes

To be fair live MF is hidden op

Immobile, short range, poor CC, the moment a bruiser/assassin/tank is on top of her, she either duels her way out or she's done for.

she isnt supposed to be good 1vs1

Immobile ADCs HAVE to be good at 1v1s, else they're literally just fat pinatas waiting to be busted open for their delicious gold inside.

As someone who has played his fair share of MF and has earned pentakills on her, I have to say that your understanding of her kit and playstyle is sorely lacking. I've said this before and I feel it's worth repeating: MF is just a worse version of Draven. With the limited amount of time I've put in on him, even I can tell he has an identical kit which offers easier reward with less risk.

Kitten of EvilOct 30, 20154 votes

Immobile ADCs HAVE to be good at 1v1s, else they're literally just fat pinatas waiting to be busted open for their delicious gold inside.

I laughed at this, but it's completely true. Immobile mages at least have CC usually. But Varus, Koggy, and MF die basically as soon as a bruiser or assassin jumps on them.

Linna ExcelOct 29, 201510 votes

I have to agree this is a nerf. I don't like the changes at all. Over in the PBE thread riot's confirms she's not a lane bully anymore. That's just wrong if you ask me.

Ratchet FortuneOct 29, 20159 votes

Impure Shots promoted early-mid game advantage, and allowed to go through tanks mid game with her hybrid damage, (even if the magic damage was very small when starting out). It also felt very good to use and allowed the player to figure out which target to focus and gain stacks on, (a small stacking indicator would've been nice though), and gave a great advantage over long duels/long term poking.

What I don't understand is why switch between targets? It makes no sense. As an ADC you are supposed to focus a single target at a time for maximum damage output, which Impure Shots encouraged. Love Tap doesn't even achieve their goal of making her a "wombo combo ADC" which she already is.

Just imagine this between Impure Shots/Love Tap ---- Scenario - Jinx and Nami are in range of a MissFortune and Sona . The Nami missed her bubble and the heal is now on cooldown.

Impure Shots - Focus on Jinx, (like 99.9% of other ADC's). Love Tap - Auto Jinx > Nami > Jinx > Nami > Jinx > Nami > Jinx > etc?!

Unless it deals absurd amount of damage, there is no reason for even attempting this unless there is an awkwardly enemy-placed team fight.

In my opinion, with the recent ultimate buff, (+10%/17.5%/25% of BONUS attack damage), she is more than fine to be properly named as the wombo-combo ADC. Personally, none of these changes are necessary, (morally talking about Strut and Love Tap), and the newly added PBE ultimate buff could be even broken, but balancing it out as if it were overpowered could strengthen her role as the wombo-combo ADC.

A side note - Strut could be abused early by any average Miss Fortune player against a Thresh, Blitz, Leona, etc. I'm not able to find the numbers of the W Strut change they have now, but it if they nerf the amount of movement speed she can gain, they need to buff it later in the game.

Also, it seems they could've, (not saying they certainly DID), removed Impure Shots because of Corki becoming the "magic damage ADC". Boy, if I found that out.

qetzelOct 29, 20152 votes

On the other hand if you are forced to switch targets (perhaps because you have been zoned by CC or your initial target has dashed away) you gain damage. For an immobile ADC who has to attack who she can this could be of benefit in certain situations.

On your point about the ultimate buff, the AD ratio is given in damage per wave. The addition of crit and the increased number of waves could easily overcome the loss in ratio that will come with the preseason.

Of course, I don't play MF. As an MF player did you particularly like the ramp up? I always thought it made the damage from her ultimate too backloaded to be used with anything other than an Amumu o/e.

Doktor XOct 30, 20156 votes

I don't like the passive because it promotes typically bad play: not focusing a single target. It reminds me of Ashe's old passive, when she was rewarded for not attacking.

Yes, there are some situations where you have to rapidly switch targets. They are uncommon. Yes, this awkward passive could be compensated with numbers on it or elsewhere in the kit. But it's still wonky.

Kalista's passive, on the other hand, promotes good ADC mechanics: orb-walking. Riot said as much when they introduced Kalista.

I'd suggest keeping the old Strut passive over Love Taps.

Ratchet FortuneOct 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doktor X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BgbYgFFN,comment-id=000d0002,timestamp=2015-10-30T05:30:13.110+0000)

I don't like the passive because it promotes typically bad play: not focusing a single target. It reminds me of Ashe's old passive, when she was rewarded for not attacking.

Yes, there are some situations where you have to rapidly switch targets. They are uncommon. Yes, this awkward passive could be compensated with numbers on it or elsewhere in the kit. But it's still wonky.

Kalista's passive, on the other hand, promotes good ADC mechanics: orb-walking. Riot said as much when they introduced Kalista.

I'd suggest keeping the old Strut passive over Love Taps.

I agree completely. Thanks for making a valid, genuine point.

I also agree on keeping the old Strut over Love Taps. Impure Shots in my opinion was fine as it was.

Ignis0Oct 29, 20158 votes

Quinn mains feeling pain too. We have o dmg potential but at least we can fly around a bunch right?

Photos of GhostsOct 29, 20154 votes

Please, you get a 3d passive proc and now passive scales off total AD which synergizes with Triforce+Sterak.

Ignis0Oct 29, 20153 votes

Unfortunately though she is getting forced into the mid lane, her iconic blind was removed, her w's passive is gone rendering the spell useless, the ult is okay but I'd still prefer the old flying into you face from out of no where and now youre 1000-0. Also I can't Quinn jg anymore.

Photos of GhostsOct 29, 20152 votes

I personally fear she'll just be even more of a problem top, it'll just require more kiting. Moreover her mobility will put her in advantage regarding Herald control.

Ignis0Oct 29, 20154 votes

Her problem top lane was her blind which rendered melee auto attackers like jax useless. The current meta for top is AD casters. She's not going to thrive in the top lane.

My Waifu VanillaOct 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her problem top lane was her blind which rendered melee auto attackers like jax useless.

Pssttt that is why her "iconic" spell was removed (very situational cc that either auto won match ups or was borderline useless) and it now does more damage to compensate. She was either a suuuuuper cheesy top laner or bottom of the barrel useless. At least now she is probably THE best roaming assassin in the game due to 0 cd ult and being able to wave clear with Q and just fly elsewhere.

Ignis0Oct 30, 20152 votes

No she's actually pretty bad rn just played a couple pbe games. She has no damage besides her passive. Q doesn't do enough in fights and sky strike's dmg is very low.

Singing LarkOct 29, 201512 votes

"Let's give Quinn a HotS mount so she can move around faster!"

SpecterVonBarenOct 29, 20158 votes

She's apparently losing 2 AD per level and with the removal of Impure Shots she won't even have the base stats to justify playing her at all. She'll have neither a great late game nor early game. This is looking a lot like the Teemo changes, introduce situational gimmicks in exchange for severely cutting stats.

Dominick DestineOct 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She's apparently losing 2Ad per level and with the removal of Impure Shots she won't even have the base stats to justify playing her at all. She'll have neither a great late game nor early game. This is looking a lot like the Teemo changes, introduce situational gimmicks in exchange for severely cutting stats.

I was under the impression that the impure shots passive was being retained.

SpecterVonBarenOct 29, 20156 votes

Nope, it's gone. She'll now have a passive that increases her damage when she attacks a new target.

Dominick DestineOct 29, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Nope, it's gone. She'll now have a passive that increases her damage when she attacks a new target.

Then that sucks and is a huge nerf.... I thought she was keeping Impure Shots in addition to Love Tap.

Blue Moon WolfOct 30, 20155 votes

I don't think that passive would make much sense for any champ the way I read it. why would a bonus 28 damage one time on a new target be considered useful between life steal, healing, shields and a lot of health in general. that passive seems like the only use for it is to help guarantee a last hit on a minion. I understand riot trying to change up champs a bit to keep them fresh, but for god sake, she JUST got an update. Riot needs to Stop trying to fix something that they JUST fixed.

Pika310Oct 30, 20155 votes

Except the last time they "fixed" her was ALSO a nerf(removed grievous wounds for no trade-off.) This is a nerf on top of another nerf, a typical Rito practice.

There's no way this will end well. She'll either be over-nerfed for having an unusable kit; or overtuned with obscene numbers.

Blue Moon WolfOct 30, 20156 votes

There's no way this will end well. She'll either be over-nerfed for having an unusable kit; or overtuned with obscene numbers.

I'd say the first one since they apparently nerfed her base stats as well. sad thing is I really liked the increasing magic damage every time you hit an enemy. It's like they took that passive and made it the polar opposite of what it was.

JakraOct 29, 20152 votes

Don't forget, they said there are more changes to come. Plus, it could turn out like Riven's "Edge" where it never actually comes out.

I wouldn't worry too much until we get full details instead of just going by something that's being described in a general manner.

Pika310Oct 29, 201512 votes

Fearless also said the Sona "rework" would be scrapped if it turned out to be a failure. Lo and behold, it WAS a failure and countless people told him to cancel it. He ignored all that and went through with killing her despite community outrage.

We have extensive concern to worry about, we CANNOT trust Rito.