If autoattack reliant champs like Aatrox are unbalancable they should just delete all ADCs

Khristophoros·Jun 13, 2018·2 votes·1,004 views

Stop acting like a melee autoattacker is harder to balance than a ranged autoattacker. With melee champs you can carefully gate their target access with their abilities. With ranged ADCs you have to assume they will have access to at least one enemy champion at all times. Also there is a lot of skill expression in using your available target access optimally when you're playing a melee champ.

Aatrox deserves to keep his autoattacking DPS. Even Irelia got to keep it with her new passive.

30 Comments

JamareeJun 13, 20183 votes

It wasn't that he was unbalanced, he just didn't work.

AirKingNeoJun 13, 20182 votes

yet he works right now?

JamareeJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

yet he works right now?

No, he doesn't, hence why he is getting this rework.

AirKingNeoJun 13, 20182 votes

then why does he has a 52% winrate on op.gg and 54% on LeagueofGraphs (Diamond+ Global) with pickrates between 5-3%?

It clearly works

JamareeJun 13, 20183 votes

{quoted}

then why does he has a 52% winrate on op.gg and 54% on LeagueofGraphs (Diamond+ Global) with pickrates between 5-3%?

It clearly works

Alright, then, Shaco also doesn't need help, nor does Fiddlesticks, or Wukong then.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/grid/

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

He's pretty good atm. Sees play even in high elo by regular top mains, not just "that one guy"

JamareeJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He's pretty good atm. Sees play even in high elo by regular top mains, not just "that one guy"

I mean, so does Shaco, doesn't mean he is in a good place.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

No. Shaco only sees play by "that one guy" (Pink Ward)

JamareeJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No. Shaco only sees play by "that one guy" (Pink Ward)

https://beast.lol/eune/hatredthedaddy Ranked 43 Challenger, Shaco main.

https://beast.lol/na/pantsarej%C5%82zz Rank 48, Shaco second most picked

https://beast.lol/eune/iamlebron Rank 42

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

There are always like 3-4 mains of literally any champ, but you can't claim that Shaco is generally a part of most junglers champ pools.

JamareeJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There are always like 3-4 mains of literally any champ, but you can't claim that Shaco is generally a part of most junglers champ pools.

I very much think so I can claim unless you want to say that Aatrox is more a general part of every top laner's pool, which he wasn't.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

That's because he spent like 3 years in the dumpster. Now that he's finally viable he's been seeing a little more play by people who don't main him.

JamareeJun 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That's because he spent like 3 years in the dumpster. Now that he's finally viable he's been seeing a little more play by people who don't main him.

I mean, so has Shaco, but Shaco has a higher pick, ban, and play rate is still considered shit.

ModWulf HelhammerJun 13, 20182 votes

Not sustain through auto attacks.

Drain tanks.

Those are two entirely different things.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20182 votes

Aatrox doesn't need to keep his draintank thing. Who even said that?

ModWulf HelhammerJun 13, 20182 votes

That’s what will happen if you make him more similar to his old version (which is precisely the reason he was being changed)

Look at Warwick: his sustain now really only kicks in when he’s low, which means he’s not not constantly either out-healing everything you do to him or being useless when he isn’t.

Kayn/Rhaast works because the healing comes from his abilities. Don’t let him hit his abilities (by either dodging or staying out of range), and he goes down.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20182 votes

Aatrox's sustain already works like Warwick's sustain.

I don't think you actually know how Aatrox works. He was one of the pioneers in this design concept of increasing sustain as you get lower health alongside Zac.

IcyPepperJun 13, 20182 votes

The thing about pioneers is not only are they trailblazers for what works, but they often stumble upon the early cases of what can go wrong.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

So what actually went wrong with Aatrox's W?

Besides I don't even care about the healing part. I care about the damage part. They kept his healing on his kit through his E passive and now he heals off his abilities. Fine, I don't care. I just want him to have autoattack DPS.

PhDs NutsJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you actually know how Aatrox works. He was one of the pioneers in this design concept of increasing sustain as you get lower health alongside Zac.

lol? Olaf

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

Nope. Olaf's W healing did not scale off missing hp until patch 3.12. Aatrox was added in patch 3.8. Zac was added in 3.5.

PhieldworkerJun 13, 20182 votes

You gotta remember that melee champs have more of a chance to get tankier and still output damage while adcs not so much rob be as effective in their role.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20182 votes

That is also something Riot can tune by making the champ rely on defensive active abilities instead of purely relying on passive stats.

SmashinBobJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Stop acting like a melee autoattacker is harder to balance than a ranged autoattacker. With melee champs you can carefully gate their target access with their abilities. With ranged ADCs you have to assume they will have access to at least one enemy champion at all times. Also there is a lot of skill expression in using your available target access optimally when you're playing a melee champ.

Aatrox deserves to keep his autoattacking DPS. Even Irelia got to keep it with her new passive.

Well Adcs are not that hard to balance, they are very squishy and can be easily dealt with in many ways, aatrox is completely different due to his life steal niche and kit, making most lane matchups a statcheck instead of doing any meaningfull plays, therefore its hard to balance, because its either too strong or too weak, melee AA champions usually also have a gapcloser making ranged AA champions lose their range advantage by default as soon as you gapclose.

Also you mention adcs always have access to enemies, which is far from the truth, they have very little access to enemy champions, a good example is orianna, you cant have acess with her zoning whatsoever, as her zoning range is bigger than any adc aa range, fed assasins easily zone off adcs, Malphite ult+flash range is pretty big and easily zones off any acess. Your access to enemy champions in late teamfights as adc is actually extremely limited, esspecially since so many champions have gapclosers and mobility in their kits nowadays, so the range advantage is not really a huge benefit when its instantly negated, and to that extent in those matchups an adc will often not even join a teamfight until its halfway through, because it would just be suicide.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

ADCs generally have access to at least attack a tank in a teamfight unless their whole team is just too behind entirely.

SmashinBobJun 13, 20181 votes

Adcs have access based on team comp and how well they do, but then again you are comparing aatrox to adcs, aatrox is not that good of a late teamfight champ, he does well in skirmish and lane. Most adcs are designed to teamfight, you dont see many adcs going 1v1, as they wouldnt really win much of them, unless they are extremely fed.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

My point was that melee champs can have their target access tuned more carefully via their abilities. Their default target access without their abilities is basically 0. So it's actually easier to balance them even if they have high autoattack damage.

SmashinBobJun 13, 20181 votes

Well most melee AA champions have high autodamage when they do gapclose, it doesnt really help any balancing. Fed master yi can kill a squishy in less than a second when fed, in general the only reliable counter to him is cc, or assasin that can kill him faster, as gapclosing is never really an issue for him, which doesnt really help any balancing, since all he does is statchecking.

KhristophorosJun 13, 20181 votes

Because Yi's kit is really badly designed. His gap closer is point and click which both limits its skill expression and also limits the counterplay against it.

These autoattack champs' design quality depends entirely on the rest of their kit.

SmashinBobJun 13, 20181 votes

Well yi would ussually gapclose with huge MS from his ult, Q is used with some skill to dodge rather just to gapclose, as you can dodge and cancel skills with Q. But overall immobile squishies have low chance vs Yi in a 1v1, as there isnt much counterplay to him besides not getting caught. And this would apply to aatrox aswell if left in statchecking state, atleast lane wise, because counterplay should exists when fighting a champion, and not just dont fight or dont get caught, any other top melee ussually just ends up statchecking vs aatrox, and i think rework done him good.