@Meddler: Context of the Lux nerf

darkdill·Mar 9, 2016·10 votes·13,071 views

EDIT: Thank you for the context, Meddler. Also thanks to ricklessabandon on both Twitter and Reddit for expanding the context.

#Lux **Prismatic Barrier (W) ** AP ratio lowered to .2 from .35 Shield value lowered to 50/70/90/110/130 from 80/105/130/155/180 "Shields stack on double hits and the missile now decelerates on the way out, accelerates in"

48 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 9, 201619 votes

We're nerfing Lux because she's too strong.

For a bit more detail we're also looking to change how Lux's Shield affects targets it hits multiple times, so that it stacks rather than just refreshes. Goal is to make Lux weaker in terms of lane safety and ability to shield through sustained incoming damage, while keeping the spell potent when used to tag allies. Also adding some acceleration/deceleration to make the allied play a bit more accessible (similar to the way Ahri's Q functions).

Also worth mentioning that the numbers on the PBE aren't necessarily right. It's possible they're too strong a nerf, it's also very possible that with the change to stack instead of refresh they're too strong and we'll need to cut power further if that change tests well.

Lovely PantsMar 9, 20169 votes

Ah, shoot. So your goal is to make it far more noticeable when I reflexively dodge allied Lux's shields, huh?

darkdillMar 9, 20161 votes

You still do that?

darkdillMar 9, 20161 votes

Yeah, I saw ricklessabandon's posts on the subject. Essentially you're giving the shield the Diana treatment.

That's far more acceptable than just a straight-up numbers nerf.

Also, you probably read my question wrong. I wasn't asking why Lux was nerfed OVERALL, but why her shield was the chosen nerf and not her damage output. (Not that I want her to lose any damage power.)

The WhamboozlerMar 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I saw ricklessabandon's posts on the subject. Essentially you're giving the shield the Diana treatment.

That's far more acceptable than just a straight-up numbers nerf.

Also, you probably read my question wrong. I wasn't asking why Lux was nerfed OVERALL, but why her shield was the chosen nerf and not her damage output. (Not that I want her to lose any damage power.)

Nerfing her damage would be a stupid idea. She's supposed to be a bursty poke mage who blows up if you actually reach her because she's squishy and immobile. This nerf makes her more squishy. The idea isn't to dumpster a champ, it's to put them to where they're supposed to be, power wise. This was a good move for the balance team. It's better to create a weakness than to remove a strength. If you can get around her bind and jump Lux... she's supposed to die. This makes that more likely.

SnugglePuggle94Mar 9, 20164 votes

Anddd another stupid change, Meddler. Everything you do I just shake my head. It's so stupid. Nerfing Lux's shield is NOT the way to go. She is strong because of her poke damage and laser ult, BUDDY, not her shield.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

RiotMeddlerMar 9, 201619 votes

Her poke damage and pick potential are definitely strong, no argument there. They're intended strengths for her though, whereas ability to weather damage in trades as successfully as she can at present isn't to the same degree. We want Lux to be a bit more vulnerable to heavy trades/all ins than she currently is (trade off for that range in the first place). Nerfing the shield's pretty promising as a result.

As a general rule we'll try and remove unintended strengths from a champion when nerfing them if possible, rather than nerfing their core identity. Desire there is to preserve what makes a champion special and interesting. Sometimes we'll have to hit part of their core, if that's where the specific problems (counterplay for example) lie. If it's more a question of overall power though, we think increasing or creating a weakness will often lead to healthier, more interesting champions than nerfing a strength.

ArcticSiriusMar 9, 20162 votes

Mind shedding some light onto the shyvana nerf and revert on her w?

RiotMeddlerMar 9, 20167 votes

Excessive jungle farming power's what we're targeting, even accounting for the Devourer nerf. Not certain as to the context on why the Q change, haven't talked to the person looking at her about that specifically.

Skia AsteriMar 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Excessive jungle farming power's what we're targeting, even accounting for the Devourer nerf. Not certain as to the context on why the Q change, haven't talked to the person looking at her about that specifically.

If removing the extra damage from Burn out makes her clear a bit on the slow side of where it should be, will returning the damage removed from it in a previous nerf to her jungle clear be looked at?

LankPantsMar 9, 20162 votes

Not certain as to the context on why the Q change, haven't talked to the person looking at her about that specifically.

This nerf is similar in scale to the nerf that Sejuani was given that took her completely out of play if not slightly bigger. The only real context on this nerf is that the goal is to cripple Shyvana to the point of unplayability.

Excessive jungle farming power's what we're targeting

This is pretty contradictory to this

As a general rule we'll try and remove unintended strengths from a champion when nerfing them if possible, rather than nerfing their core identity.

Shyvana's core identity is tied to her ability to jungle quickly and counter jungle.

QuephaMar 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

This nerf is similar in scale to the nerf that Sejuani was given that took her completely out of play if not slightly bigger. The only real context on this nerf is that the goal is to cripple Shyvana to the point of unplayability.

This is pretty contradictory to this

Shyvana's core identity is tied to her ability to jungle quickly and counter jungle.

Good thing Meddler covered himself with

Sometimes we'll have to hit part of their core, if that's where the specific problems (counterplay for example) lie

Shyvana's actual weaknesses (kitability without her ult, lack of gank pressure pre-6 or without her ult) are already pretty extreme but she still can autopilot to sated and carry the game.

LankPantsMar 9, 20162 votes

Shyvana's actual weaknesses (kitability without her ult, lack of gank pressure pre-6 or without her ult) are already pretty extreme but she still can autopilot to sated and carry the game.

"Shyvana has no counterplay, except for all this counterplay"

Seriously though, there's clearly counterplay to Shyvana and you just listed a fair bit yourself.

You also forgot your jungler snowballing lanes while Shyvana farms up, this is actually the counter to Devourer but I almost never see anyone utilise it. If she can autopilot a Devourer without your jungler acting at all you've absolutely failed at playing against her.

Just to clarify I don't disagree with the W nerfs, only the Q nerf. I think the W nerf is 100% in the right direction although probably too extreme even in isolation from the Q changes when you consider that devourer is getting nerfed too. I just think that Meddler is using here is very flawed.

SpecterVonBarenMar 9, 20163 votes

I think what he meant is that she has a lot of weaknesses in theory but that her strength is so good that her weaknesses aren't having an effect.

QuephaMar 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Seriously though, there's clearly counterplay to Shyvana and you just listed a fair bit yourself.

THAT'S. THE. POINT. She already has a lot of counterplay yet she's performing way above what should be allowed for a champion. They can't accentuate her weaknesses any more than they already are so they have to hit some of her strengths.

CosnirakMar 9, 20162 votes

Sometimes we'll have to hit part of their core, if that's where the specific problems (counterplay for example) lie.

SnugglePuggle94Mar 9, 20167 votes

This is like Sejuani all over again. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

CanastusMar 9, 20161 votes

What happened to those Cass buffs you once mentioned? It's been 4-5 months now and she's still in a godawful spot (lowest recorded pickrate and horrendous winrate), when will she finally get some help?

The mage update is going to take a long time, are you simply going to let her rot for half of season 6 until then? She hasn't seen a single buff in a year (only nerfs), that absolutely needs to change.

Phoenix Kotori Mar 9, 20161 votes

Isn't Shyvana all about jungle farming power though?

ShrîkeMar 10, 20161 votes

What about the Quinn nerfs? Why the double nerf and not try one first?

CheiniMar 9, 20161 votes

Hey, Meddler, I am still quiiite sleepy to think what the context of this change is... But, I was wondering, wouldn't it work a little better, if you make the shield be less powerful if she has no friends around her? This way, playing with her as a support, and in team fights, she will still be fine, and i just... get the feeling that this will go a little too far (unless shield rate reverted to a higher value)..

I like playing her, being one of the coolest characters in the game (and not the Tryndamere style), and have to agree that, if you think, but only then, she likes sending people for new clothes - Mantles to be precise... but isn't that the idea?.. Like Yasuo, for example... though, it would be great if you do something about a more-interesting (in that I mean - using your head) style - and perhaps, a more team-oriented one, with ward mirrors for example?..

RitoInvokerMar 9, 20161 votes

Her problem is really her snare.. on top of her shield... It just gives her so much freedom... Anti aggression to an all in... or even harass.. and a counter harass and kill... Also CC to insure her jungler gank works.. if for some weird reason she needs the junglers help

Her ult is powerful late game because it's a spammable AoE nuke that can poke from long range... that isn't the main problem though.. it's her snare and her shield... makes it hard to kill her

I'm the one who came up with the idea of lux... and even originally named her ult Finales funkeln [even though I didn't know german ]... And I regret it...

Granted karthus needs some fixes [lay waste 2.2second cooldown.. seriously] and buffs [shitty wall, early game mana sink on defile, easily countered requiem and long channel time]

But every lux that isn't bronze I've noticed is extremely hard for me to kill...

Yasuo also needs some kinda nerf... way to easy and his dash gives him an easy way out of skillshots while dealing significant harass.. Also you can't fight while you are being ulted by him... that's anti fun and doesn't make sense on much heroes except malzahar and warwick...

SnugglePuggle94Mar 9, 20161 votes

The nerf is way to strong though. That's what you always do. Nerf something way too much or nerf a champ that completely doesn't need it. That and you buff those that are already strong (Xin, for example).

That's why I shake my head at you, because when people ask for reasons why you did this or that, you make excuses that simply just are stupid or wrong.

ExecutorDillMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Her poke damage and pick potential are definitely strong, no argument there. They're intended strengths for her though, whereas ability to weather damage in trades as successfully as she can at present isn't to the same degree. We want Lux to be a bit more vulnerable to heavy trades/all ins than she currently is (trade off for that range in the first place). Nerfing the shield's pretty promising as a result.

As a general rule we'll try and remove unintended strengths from a champion when nerfing them if possible, rather than nerfing their core identity. Desire there is to preserve what makes a champion special and interesting. Sometimes we'll have to hit part of their core, if that's where the specific problems (counterplay for example) lie. If it's more a question of overall power though, we think increasing or creating a weakness will often lead to healthier, more interesting champions than nerfing a strength.

No her dmg is to flipping strong. I have no problem killing a lux in lane with my dmg. I have a problem getting rooted and flipping annihilated afterwards. I won't accept these nerfs. You are also nerfing he strength as a support for the sake that her solo lane remains strong.

Fun FestMar 9, 20161 votes

If only this logic was applied when Ryze's strength was nerfed (and his skill cap brought to the floor). Meanwhile, his weaknesses aren't as weak as intended. He's still an "always-on" champion since he can combo you from just 1 stack of his passive.

Nanami OdaMar 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Her poke damage and pick potential are definitely strong, no argument there. They're intended strengths for her though, whereas ability to weather damage in trades as successfully as she can at present isn't to the same degree. We want Lux to be a bit more vulnerable to heavy trades/all ins than she currently is (trade off for that range in the first place). Nerfing the shield's pretty promising as a result.

As a general rule we'll try and remove unintended strengths from a champion when nerfing them if possible, rather than nerfing their core identity. Desire there is to preserve what makes a champion special and interesting. Sometimes we'll have to hit part of their core, if that's where the specific problems (counterplay for example) lie. If it's more a question of overall power though, we think increasing or creating a weakness will often lead to healthier, more interesting champions than nerfing a strength.

But you nerfed Talon last patch for having a lane polarising ult (cd too short, one shots you 20 secs after you walk back into lane) and yet you let Lux get away with it, while being much, much safer? She is by far and away the most polarising mid right now. Yes, the shield change is a good one, but if you're going to nerf ults for being too short a cd, at least look at one of the most polarising mid ults in the game. It does too much damage and has too much range for how short the cooldown is. Edit: and I went without mentioning her E. Mana cost high thus power budget earned but it's such a wide hitbox and it's so fast, also detonation being able to be buffered before the E lands means she can poke/zone fairly easily, as if you get near her E you run the risk of taking a Q then her popping E then R'ing you, then autoing you once, annihilating you. And yes, I know there are items to counter this but I don't really want to have to buy QSS after 1 component because she can os me because she ulted in river and stole a kill from her ADC, putting herself ahead. Lol..

patmax17Mar 11, 20161 votes

Have you considered making it so that one can interrupt her ult? Lux has enormous range on her R, but it happens that sometimes she is engaged, casts her combo in close/melee range, her opponent throws a hard CC on her while she's firing her ultimate, and it still goes off. Shouldn't the opponen be rewarded in that case? This is already true for some other ultis (e.g. Caitlyn, Darius IIRC,...), where the ulti doesn't go off if the character is CCd/killed while casting

Margrave MasaneMar 9, 20164 votes

Yeah, let's weaken every champion's strength, that will surely make them interesting. /s

The point of a nerf isn't to take away her core, it's to take away what's there beside it and is too much. (Her high defense against damage in lane in this case)

warpenguin555Mar 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We're nerfing Lux because she's too strong.

For a bit more detail we're also looking to change how Lux's Shield affects targets it hits multiple times, so that it stacks rather than just refreshes. Goal is to make Lux weaker in terms of lane safety and ability to shield through sustained incoming damage, while keeping the spell potent when used to tag allies. Also adding some acceleration/deceleration to make the allied play a bit more accessible (similar to the way Ahri's Q functions).

Also worth mentioning that the numbers on the PBE aren't necessarily right. It's possible they're too strong a nerf, it's also very possible that with the change to stack instead of refresh they're too strong and we'll need to cut power further if that change tests well.

they do look a bit too low now. cool that it stacks though

Rock MDMar 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

We're nerfing Lux because she's too strong.

For a bit more detail we're also looking to change how Lux's Shield affects targets it hits multiple times, so that it stacks rather than just refreshes. Goal is to make Lux weaker in terms of lane safety and ability to shield through sustained incoming damage, while keeping the spell potent when used to tag allies. Also adding some acceleration/deceleration to make the allied play a bit more accessible (similar to the way Ahri's Q functions).

Also worth mentioning that the numbers on the PBE aren't necessarily right. It's possible they're too strong a nerf, it's also very possible that with the change to stack instead of refresh they're too strong and we'll need to cut power further if that change tests well.

Meddler do you plan to do something about AD seriously outclassing AP at the moment?

VenedictosMar 9, 20161 votes

What do you mean 'seriously outclassing'? There's a lot of mages that are really valuable at the moment. Particularly thinking of Lissandra, Lulu and Lux. Then there's Syndra, there's Orianna, there's Ahri who is well-known to be really strong... What about Zilean? Ryze? Anivia?

Rock MDMar 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean 'seriously outclassing'? There's a lot of mages that are really valuable at the moment. Particularly thinking of Lissandra, Lulu and Lux. Then there's Syndra, there's Orianna, there's Ahri who is well-known to be really strong... What about Zilean? Ryze? Anivia?

Lulu is a support, Syndra gets dumped on particularly hard by ADs with Hexdrinker, Ryze got nerfed and I'm not sure whether the base damage buff is going to make him viable or not, Ahri, Lux, and Lissandra are outliers who aren't even picked for damage because using APs just to burst is suicide at the moment (hence why Syndra is bad right now). Then you've got Zilean who is in a super weird spot.

EROTIC RAID BOSSMar 9, 20162 votes

He probably means items wise. There's a lot of MR options now and hex drinker on every ad champ is especially annoying

HadesBladesMar 9, 20161 votes

While her shield is a proper nerf for her to receive in a way, is it possible to lower the scaling of lux passive? I think it is fine for the early game, but by the time it hits the mid game it is infuriating to deal with and its combination with thunderlords makes it very hard to deal with unless you are stacking health. While I appreciate a lux being rewarded for walking up and hitting her skills she feels too dominant I feel with her passive at the moment.

darkdillMar 9, 20163 votes

By mid-game, you should be able to insta-kill Lux if you get the drop on her. If she's successfully proccing Illumination on you several times, you probably were the one who got dropped on, and thus misplayed.

Krys StarMar 9, 20162 votes

Off-topic, but is there a reason Ekko is receiving pretty substantial buffs? Ekko doesn't have a hard time catching up to or sticking to targets, and when he's strong, he's oppressive because of his powerful Parrallel Convergence's flat 2.25s stun duration.

VenedictosMar 9, 20162 votes

They probably thing that his laning phase is a bit bad. Maybe due to the way his damage comes out of % max HP and stuff and how these interacted with previous Season's masteries was really imporant to him, so he got a lot weaker now that these are gone?

C9 Scott Free Mar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We're nerfing Lux because she's too strong.

For a bit more detail we're also looking to change how Lux's Shield affects targets it hits multiple times, so that it stacks rather than just refreshes. Goal is to make Lux weaker in terms of lane safety and ability to shield through sustained incoming damage, while keeping the spell potent when used to tag allies. Also adding some acceleration/deceleration to make the allied play a bit more accessible (similar to the way Ahri's Q functions).

Also worth mentioning that the numbers on the PBE aren't necessarily right. It's possible they're too strong a nerf, it's also very possible that with the change to stack instead of refresh they're too strong and we'll need to cut power further if that change tests well.

As a person playing against lux I would have preferred a nerf to ult CD or something else so that it's not up every fight after 15 minutes. Thats the part of the kit that is frustrating and winning her games.

SpecterVonBarenMar 9, 20162 votes

Glad to know you intend to make it stronger when used on allies because it seemed weird to nerf one of her unique utilities.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 9, 20161 votes

All you had to do is nerf lux's Q rank 1-4 snare duration anything else is unnecessary, won't hit her and you'll nerf her more on top of that.....

RitoInvokerMar 9, 20161 votes

Honestly if you nerf lux she might become useless.. lux's main problem is not her shield although that makes her much harder to kill.... It's her snare... The snare safes her from aggression and it can setup a kill

Lux does need some kind of change [and definitely not a buff though]

I know karthus is really stealth nerfed right now but I should have been able to kill her with my 2.2 second lay waste cooldown Which is ACTUALLY supposed to be 1 second .. lower lay waste range.. etc

I'm also the guy who suggested lux and looking back on it... I regret it.. she's just BS.... and hard to balance and make fun for both players... I'm challenger and I was smurfing and lost to a bad lux... like wtf... lux is so fking hard to kill.. because of her snare and shield....

ExecutorDillMar 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We're nerfing Lux because she's too strong.

For a bit more detail we're also looking to change how Lux's Shield affects targets it hits multiple times, so that it stacks rather than just refreshes. Goal is to make Lux weaker in terms of lane safety and ability to shield through sustained incoming damage, while keeping the spell potent when used to tag allies. Also adding some acceleration/deceleration to make the allied play a bit more accessible (similar to the way Ahri's Q functions).

Also worth mentioning that the numbers on the PBE aren't necessarily right. It's possible they're too strong a nerf, it's also very possible that with the change to stack instead of refresh they're too strong and we'll need to cut power further if that change tests well.

I'd argue that a nerf to her shield was not the nerf she needed. I've often played against lux midlane (average 8 out of 10 times) both in rank and norms. Lux can still disintegrate you and her getting a worst shielding wont stop that. Nerfing her shield will just make her trash tier against assasins as of right now they are the only types who have a good chance of beating her ( namely and ) I don't play lux, I honestly find her hard to play tbh as I never find an opportune time to land a root, but maybe that's because I rarely play her. I'd revert her shield nerf and nerf her dmg output. already gives her a lot, there's no need to avoid it Riot. I know you guys acknowledge she's strong but nerfing her shield is your sad attempt to tell the community (ok we nerfed her) while keeping her damage intact. She has support as a name tag for Nagakaborous Sake. Nerf her damage!

Hi Im Gilphi v2Mar 9, 20162 votes

You nerf Lux the wrong way .. Her ult cooldown is way too low and has such high damage + wave clear, her e is undodgeable and should has reduced hitbox. thats what you should nerf.

Higher cd on ult and reduce the hitbox on e

OverpoweredSoapMar 9, 20162 votes

Her shield is considered a problem to people because once you do reach her, she shields herself while running away from you.

I personally think it's more of a problem when it's combined with Barrier/Heal because those make her super safe.

It's frustrating because you finally reach her and then she shields, heals/barriers and then walks away safely.

Just some thoughts, I like to reason for both sides though.

EDIT: Nerfing both the base and the value seems a bit much though, I'd personally lower the base value instead of the scaling because then she needs to build ap for her W to be useful due to the fact she points one point into and then maxes it last.

darkdillMar 9, 20164 votes

I actually max the shield second because, to me, the snare is good enough as a utility tool. The damage can wait, but the shield is what lets you bait people or save yourself from an enemy ambush.

BilibiliTV PawnMar 9, 20162 votes

donot forget ryze!!!!!!!

CR4ZYRONDH4VIMar 9, 20162 votes

She definitely isn't being nerfed too much. She is op and needs to be balanced.

LordGeovanniMar 11, 20161 votes

who dafuk even uses that sheild you remember it once in a while late game but other times you fling it to cover your tanks and miss it cause your team isnt just gonna line up