@Every Vlad,Cassio,Malz,Vel,Zyra and brand main.

Malicious Metal·Jan 22, 2016·176 votes·8,541 views

Riot officially called upon you to give them some input regarding the reworks they have in store for your champion. Don't waste this opportunity and use it to influence the outcome of those six reworks. We've seen how important it is to communicate with the players who love these champs and who can give great suggestion based on Thematics, Gameplay or overall "Feel".

I beseech thee to assemble and get some Mega-threads rolling. The time to act is BEFORE the rework and not in its aftermath!

~Malicious

Edit; Here's the link to the DEV Corner thread http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/jQmE1EjE-mid-year-mage-update?comment=00290006

193 Comments

LimitaneiJan 22, 201671 votes

As happy as I am to see that Malzahar and Cassiopeia are getting attention, I only have one question on my mind:

Why the fuck is Vel'Koz here?

When it comes to "Mages that need a touch-up", Vel'Koz does not come to mind.

Cassiopeia? Definitely.

Swain? Yes, but it's a shame he's not on the list atm.

But Vel'Koz? Why?

{quoted}

Vel'Koz is a great champion, but he honestly lacks Distinctness. He has some hints here and there of uniqueness (Q targeting, true damage from Deconstruct, etc.) but none of them are pushed to a point where it truly differentiates him.

Don't worry, even within the 6, the amount of change each champion will see is pretty drastically different.

..what?

How is Vel'Koz not distinct? He's a giant floatey eyeball from another world that kills for knowledge! I honestly just see this as a bullshit excuse for Riot to either completely shoehorn Vel'Koz into another lane (see: Mordekaiser ) or give him bullshit mechanics that we don't care about (see: Skarner )

I don't even main Vel'Koz, and I'm still wondering WHY THE FUCK IS VEL'KOZ ON THIS LIST?

Edit: If you think I'm just 'whining about Vel'Koz', then please take a look at this quote from Meddler himself.

{quoted}

Some discussion from last month that covers Vel'Koz's state:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5dJN5vf7-meddler-velkoz-thoughts

TLDR: Healthy, fun to play, distinct to play as, fair to play against, needs to have a more distinct reason to be brought to a team than he currently has .

If he's healthy, fun, and fair, WHY FOR FUCK'S SAKE IS HE ON THIS UPDATE?

Zero Skill TankJan 22, 201618 votes

He has nothing other mages don't, so he is picked because a) you main him and like floating eyeballs, or b) he is strong ATM

He just doesn't have his unique niche, a moment when you go "Hey, Vel'koz would be great for this match!" just because of his kit, not because you just happen to like him more than Lux, or because some recent change made him outstat Ziggs, or you prefer pink over blue. Only thing that makes him distinct is his true damage, but it doesn't even scale so it's not like Vel'koz is noticeably better vs tanks, it's just some more damage to the mix. Riot has stated few times they don't like when some champion relies on outstating others in order to be picked and it's kind of understandable.

Romans VI XXIIIJan 22, 20163 votes

Unique Stuff about Vel:

Q: Splits, creating different angles of attack E: Pops up away from vel, creating unique plays. R: Massive AoE DPS, That can be moved, creating a unique way of attacking.

Pretty much everything about Vel is unique besides his 3 hit passive, and rupturing W

ZydronJan 22, 20168 votes

Because he doesn't offer anything unique, all he does is damage, they want to create a reason to pick him over other mages

Big LincolnJan 22, 20168 votes

almost every character in the game offers either damage or utility

why is velkoz being singled out here?

Voluug13Jan 22, 20168 votes

Because he builds Athene and we know Riot considers every Athene champion to be secretly a support.

ZedexJan 22, 201642 votes

Hes healthy, fun and fair. he brings nothing to the game that other long range mages don't. Its all described very well by Meddler, and I don't understand peoples problems with it. From the sounds of it, his dmg, and utility won't be touched. He'll be given something unique to play off of so theres an actual reason to pick him.

I know, I know, change is bad, but you'll get over it.

GoosetardJan 22, 201640 votes

Because when they reworked Mordekaiser they tried to stuff him in the botlane. When they reworked Quinn they replaced half of her kit with a racecar. When they reworked Skarner we got... pillars. When they reworked KogMaw we got a useless firehose. People are losing their shit over this because nobody has a problem with him except Rito. A fair number of people clearly like playing him, and nobody seems to mind playing against him. He's not in the LCS, and that doesn't bother velkoz players one bit. He still sees high level play outside of competition. And, despite that he's as close to an innocent bystanding champion as you can get in the roster, he's next in their sights. Of course people are worried.

hopeful4Jan 22, 201614 votes

Quinn is infinitely better than before, both in terms of balance and fun factor, which reflects to her pickrate. Kog is just weak in numbers and the meta doesnt favour him either (especially in soloQ, as always)

He's not in the LCS, and that doesn't bother velkoz players one bit. He still sees high level play outside of competition.

2% pickrate, only forgotten champs like Galio or Yorick have less pickrate than Velkoz. The whole circlejerking on forums about Velkoz is just pure echo chamber effect, everyone deems Velkoz as distinctive and super fun to play when his pickrate is obsolete.

WyrmbladeJan 22, 201610 votes

I deem Vel'koz as distinctive and super fun to play because he was released right when I started playing and I picked him up during free week and he was a fun as fuck pick to play and still is. He was by far the only champion I could play tons of games in a row on and never get bored. Pick rate doesn't matter at all.

hopeful4Jan 22, 20165 votes

And because you have complex with Velkoz that means that he should be left in the extremely bland state that hes now? His pick rate matters a ton because people see no reason to pick him at all except if they are tentacle freaks, which totally isnt gameplay related

Champ distinction in terms of niche is an OBJECTIVE matter, what you feel about a champ is irrelevant. Velkoz is the epitome of the stereotypical mage which is why extremely few bother to play him

KnoyleJan 22, 201620 votes

The very first time I played Vel'Koz I instantly wanted to buy him ~~Must save up enough first though~~ His kit is absolutely wonderful without lacking counterplay. His presence in teamfights is VERY significant. And what exactly is stereotypical about him as a mage? Honestly Lux and Veigar fall under that category way more. And what the players feel about a champion is entirely relevant. We're the ones who buy and play them aren't we?

hopeful4Jan 22, 20162 votes

You seem to know a lot about game design /s

WyrmbladeJan 22, 201613 votes

The first rule of any design that if something isn't broken, you don't fix it.

Bedl44mJan 23, 20163 votes

well said!

Du Ma MiJan 23, 20163 votes

Riots first rule of any design is: "If everything is broken, nothing will be."

AuroramancerJan 22, 20163 votes

Quinn and Skarner are actually pretty good post-rework...

People still trash on Skarner but he feels better than his pre-rework state

Hello I am BirdJan 22, 201626 votes

Please don't complain about Quinn. She actually has reason to exist if she doesn't get fed now...

She is definitely a better overall champion.

Nicorus Jan 22, 20162 votes

Quinn needed some tweaking, but the tweaks needed to be aimed at her interaction with her passive and how that targets and function.

Voluug13Jan 22, 20165 votes

True Damage? Massive sustained damage no other artillery mage has? Awesome mana efficiency? ~~Tentacle Fun?~~

Z46Jan 22, 201611 votes

Meddler is referring to team compositions. Vel'Koz is an amazing champion on his own, and insanely fun to play, but doesn't bring to the table for a team what other mages do.

Even in terms of raw damage output, other mid lane mages like Orianna and Lulu are still valued over Vel'Koz due to their added utility, or Xerath's insane range and waveclear.

What Riot wants to do is give Vel'Koz something that makes him valuable to a team compared to these other mages.

Personally, I don't like that they're changing him, because I really don't want them to risk doing to Malzahar and Vel'Koz what they did to Kog'Maw, but I consider their reasoning perfectly valid since they're trying to work in the context of a team-oriented game.

ZyniXJan 22, 201617 votes

I think 90 degree skillshots, multicharge abilities, a true damage passive with a channeled laser is pretty unique.

Biff ManlyJan 22, 201615 votes

Honestly, you could swap Vel's and Xerath's models, color all their spells blue, and I wouldn't notice for at least 3 minutes of playing.

fractalfantasiesJan 22, 201619 votes

This is what the posters here do not understand

His theme is unique, his kit is not.

MrBuffingtonJan 22, 20167 votes

Well, mechanically, his kit is unique, it just doesn't offer much uniqueness strategically compared to other champions. Which isn't necessarily a problem, having a stable character isn't bad (most games have your well-rounded characters), I think it's just that Vel'Koz seems like he could be more unique strategically, so they probably want to boost that element.

Meep ManJan 22, 20166 votes

If he is guaranteed to get changes, I want to them to retain his Q, maybe E, and definitely his R. His passive and W are very... generic spells that could be SO MUCH BETTER!

You guys are looking at this wrong. Instead of reworking Vel'Koz into something worse... ahem... IF YOU ACTUALLY GIVE SOME LEGIT FEEDBACK! ...cough... Vel'Koz could come out as something EVEN better than what he is now.

Meep ManJan 22, 201628 votes

Allow me to phrase this as nicely as possible:

VEL'KOZ CAN BE REMADE TO SOMETHING YOU GUYS WANT AND BETTER! RIOT HAS STATED THEY ARE REACHING OUT TO PLAYERS FOR FEEDBACK IN EARLY STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT, MEANING YOU CAN HEAVILY INFLUENCE THEIR KITS! VEL'KOZ CAN STILL BE THE GIANT, SUPER NERDY, FLOATING EYEBALLOF TENTEACLES AND DOOM EVERYONE LOVES! HE CAN EVEN KEEP HIS LASER! PLEASE, HOWEVER, REALIZE THE OPPORTUNITY HERE! RIOT IS DOING SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE AND ASKING PLAYERS EARLY IN DEVELOPMENT FOR FEEDBACK! TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS OPPORTUNITY AND DESIGN VEL'KOZ INTO SOMETHING EVEN BETTER!

Caps Lock off, realize the opportunity here guys. Thank you for reading that. Vel'Koz can be made better AND similar to his current kit.

ChortleJan 22, 20163 votes

So true.

People should take this as an opportunity to help impact their main instead of being opposed to the changes.

BLU MedicJan 22, 201619 votes

They'll just ignore our suggestions anyway. Especially when my suggestion is "Leave Vel'Koz alone."

CatastropJan 22, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLU Medic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BcuEpRAz,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-22T12:13:42.238+0000)

They'll just ignore our suggestions anyway. Especially when my suggestion is "Leave Vel'Koz alone."

I wouldn't call myself a Vel'Koz main, but this.

BLU MedicJan 22, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't call myself a Vel'Koz main, but this.

I'd call myself a Vel'Koz main. Only champion I bought straight away after playing him once. I put up with the changes to Sona, Soraka, Garen, Mordekaiser and Kog'Maw, I don't want my last main to be changed too and have to go through yet another roller-coaster of changes.

hopeful4Jan 22, 201611 votes

How is Garen ruined? You realize that hes the exact same champion, with more damage?

Meep ManJan 22, 201610 votes

I am confused too. Garen got better if anything. He lost next to nothing.

Mordekaiser has also recently been changed to be good in the Solo Lane again, which I have seen many Morde mains agree upon. Agreeing that he is almost, if not already, back to being viable in the Solo Lane.

How was Soraka ruined as well? She became a better healer. Heck, only Soraka's enemy's should be complaining here. The only thing she lost was her mana restoration, but that was a mechanic I could see being unhealthy in the future if Riot ever wanted to make Caster ADCs more viable.

Sona and Kog'Maw though, they could use some touches. Agreed.

LankPantsJan 22, 201610 votes

They'll just ignore our suggestions anyway. Especially when my suggestion is "Leave Vel'Koz alone."

If it makes you feel better they've got that one already, a lot. Now they're going to proceed to ignore it because they clearly know best.

Craft ZeppelinJan 22, 20169 votes

I want malz to be retain this concept that he is a mad prophet, that nobody can sympathize with. His e pushing and ult really represents this that he doesnt give a hell about the world sinking into oblivion and he is a puppet of the void faction

ProtroidJan 22, 20167 votes

Hi! Vel'koz main!

I wrote a small essay on the boards about my thoughts on Vel'koz,but I'll try to condense it down into a comment. While I don't like the prospect of Vel'koz being changed, I understand the reasoning behind it. They want to give players a more powerful reason to pick him against a team composition. A reason for you to pick him and specifically him after you see the enemy's team composition. Right now I have to admit that doesn't really exist.

As a Vel'koz main, if I could have any say whatsoever in the coming update, make him the mage you pick when you need a tank buster. Vel'koz mains, with our true damage and build paths already try to treat Vel'koz in this role. Having more agency to do so in his kit would actually be really interesting.

Spizzle9000Jan 22, 20161 votes

Perhaps make his passive do %max health true damage? Yes, I know people will hate me for this, but, this way he's not just a "melt the enemy squishy in 2 seconds" (I know I grossly over-simplified, but that's what I see a lot of Vel'kozs do).

I think only changing that about him might actually be good. This way he busts tanks, like you said, and retains his damages for the most part.

ProtroidJan 22, 20162 votes

I actually covered that in one of my other posts, but I'll re write it here from scratch for visibility.

You see, back when Vel'koz was still in development, Organic Deconstruction worked very differently for most of the development process. Instead of the three hit combo we know of today, Vel'koz would have each of his spells do a small amount of true damage based on the number of spell hits, heres the ghost of Rioters past (In this case played by Riot Subninja), regarding the development of his passive;

"In fact, until about 2 months ago, it would stack to full, and then would CONTINUALLY deal bonus true damage until you stopped casting spells. In the end, we moved it to more of a "stack and proc" mechanic, since tiny amounts of true damage over time are not nearly as satisfying as occasional huge chunks of true damage."

(Taken from; https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1ytgt1/were_the_velkoz_team_ama/cfnmq9g )

It's true, we do melt the enemy squishy in about pi seconds, but part of that is the stacking nature of Vel'koz's passive. While percent max health true damage would accomplish this new Tank Busty role, it falls flat when it comes to satisfaction and visibility. As Riot Subninja mentioned above, it is extremely satisfying to get a burst of true damage off onto your opponent. In addition, with the visibility of his passive (both the set up and execution), it creates a healthy combat cycle for playing against Vel'koz. Do I risk the fact that I have one stack of his passive on me and rush in, or do I play it safe until that wears off? The giant burst is basically a big alert saying "Hey, this squid is dangerous!"

Even if the percent max health true damage was scaled back to some degree where it was doing roughly as much damage as we see Vel'koz deal now, it simply would not be as satisfying for the Vel'koz player, or noticeable for his lane opponent, other than "Wow my health bar is draining really fast."

(Also I feel really weird typing percent max health damage so many times)

SnowFallJan 22, 20166 votes

"Don't touch him/her."

OrangesilkJan 22, 20164 votes

There's been a long discussion where we veer Cassio away from her role as a hypercarry E spam dps (which didn't even make sense from a design point of view, nor does it make sense to take a 600 range mage and go "You're a hypercarry now, but now your early sucks, and your lategame damage is conditional anyways, have fun!") And give her something truly unique Debilitating poisons with a variable duration. We'd have Q and W still be poisons that slowly drain away at enemy stats (not just their HP) so something like a slow, resistances shred, damage reduction kinda like exhausts and so on. The longer they last, the more stats are drained away, but in order to keep the duration going Cass has to keep hitting the target with the fangs (which now become a skillshot).

This gives her an interesting niche, AP duelist, this girl is awful to play against, really hard to duel, almost impossible to tank, overall annoying, but still squishy, immobile, and once teamfights roll around she's not doing brutal dps nor is she bursting down priority targets, she's just taking a single guy on the enemy team and making them weak and useless.

EmExJan 22, 20161 votes

and why would I care if her kit makes sense or not? I just want to have fun and Riot wants to ruine her and ruine the fun for us Cassio mains.

GorgiolioJan 22, 20163 votes

Because she was never meant to be the way she was now. She was suppose to be a poison/venom based mage. Stashu just jacked the rework up really badly. How she is now is honestly kind of silly. A majority of snakes rely on their venom to take out their prey, not their bite.

EmExJan 22, 20161 votes

If you take out her E she will not be the same and I may give up on her if that happens cant imagine that it will improve her. Its like killing a champion and making a different one, so Cassio mains will probaly quit that champion altoghter.

BoundaryBreakerJan 22, 20165 votes

Thing is, Cassio mains are the ones calling for this massive rework and the vast majority despise her E. It's a mana drainer that is horrendous in lane except for last hitting, and is only 'useful' in teamfights if you can manage to get lucky enough to not get melted instantly because you had to get so dang close to use it properly. I myself have only played a little but of Cass,and it's been a while at that, but I hate that ability. Her W is nice, just needs better numbers, her ulti is super cool, has counterplay if you're intelligent, and fits in with her Gorgon-ish theme quite nicely imo. Her Q... meh, it's alright for what it is I guess, but could always be better.

I guess I just don't particularly like her kit at the moment, it seems very boring (manage to land Q or they're dumb and walk into W, spam E, run out of mana, die. Rinse and repeat.) and doesn't fit well with what she should and could be.