Boards›Gameplay

The ADC Problem: Why ADCs aren't the actual problem.

ModCaptainMårvelous··181 votes·9,464 views

Now, before you downvote, hear me out.

The problem isn't ADCs being OP or ADC itemization being obscenely good. (Yeah, some ADC items are broken but that's not the point). Rather, ADCs are being picked left-and-right in all lanes because their specialization, item diversity and sheer choices are through the roof and more in line with where Riot wants to take league.

To further understand this, we have to go back to the ADC itemization/Mass ADC update. Now, yes, there are champions who are better and were broken on launch, but the real thing this did was give ADCs powerful niches and items to compensate for any shortcoming or to enhance their own abilities. As a quick example, let's say I'm playing Caitlyn.

What do I have that I can buy in terms of how I customize my way-of-play?

  • item 3031 to increase my raw damage output.
  • item 3508 to increase my ability strength.
  • item 3094 to give me stronger sieging poke.
  • item 3046 to benefit my dueling potential.
  • item 3036 to deal with high HP and high armor units.

You get the idea. I have tons of options to edit and customize my playstyle. While there are some items that are better for some champions, one cannot deny that most, if not all, of these items have some level of usefulness.

Now, let's say I'm playing Malzahar. What options do I have?

  • item 3089 for raw power.
  • item 3116 for power and health.
  • item 3151 for high HP (Although it doesn't work great and only excels when paired with rylais)
  • item 3157 for power and defense.

I could go on but I think the point is clear. If it isn't: When I play an AP character, my options are far more limited in scope. Customizing build usually only gives me one path. If I want to burn high HP targets, I generally have to grab Rylais AND Liandries when an ADC only need Dominiks. If I want ability spam, I generally need to invest 2-3 items in just CDR when an ADC can get that much through one item and maybe boots/runes. etc etc etc.

Now, you'll likely go "Wow so unfair nerf ADC items" but hold the horses. This is where Riot WANTS the game to go. In a perfect world, every class would have itemization options like ADCs and every tank, fighter, mage and support would have the clearest cut of roles. Are ADCs a problem? Yes, because you're comparing a 2016 product to a 2013 product. Even the small item changes Riot does make to other roles, while good on paper, don't mend the problem as they should.

I'm not going to try and defend Riot's speed on implementing these changes. If anything, a speed like this will leave some classes far too much in the dust to justify what they actually need right now. However, I will say that complaining about ADCs right now isn't really the issue. You may disagree with me but what I think is that we need to bring OTHER classes to the level ADCs have, not blindly nerf ADCs so that they fall in line with the old and outdated products.

150 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer46 votes

Yes, because you're comparing a 2016 product to a 2013 product.

That's a great line. I really like that

Wish I could get you above 0 votes again, you were at -1 :(

swiftsnipe20 votes

i think the inherent nature of ADC's require their items to be more diverse. They are almost by definition right click bots. And so you need to be able to diversify how you right click. The only way to do this is with items.

Mages are spell casters by definition - and so their kits (Q,W,E,R) define their playstyle - more than their items.

For example, you could build Twitch with item 3153 item 3046 so that he can duel people or item 3031 item 3094 so he can assassinate people.

When you pick Leblanc you are already predefined as a burst assassin not a tanky dps because of her kit. And so item 3116 item 3027 doesn't make any sense.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Somewhat. Part of that is what I assume the mage update to be and split up champions in the mage field away from the traditional push/poke/burst that seems to be all their good at.

However, I feel that mage itemization can be diverse, it just can't be as "simple" as ADC's. As an example, most ADC itemization falls into crit or on-hit. Mage itemization, by comparison, should have more actives and passive abilities. I think the Black Market Brawler items (Seen here) could serve as great basis for iteration and itemization.

swiftsnipe5 votes

okay i will agree with all of that. Could be more diverse and i like the black market stuff. But just to be difficult:

item 3151 item 3100 item 3165 item 3048 item 3157 item 3060

damage over time, tower pushing, grievous wounds, shield, invulnerable, buff minions.

I think that the things we have are good. We just need more options.

Auryiel6 votes

Liandry's damage is minimal unless your target has both high HP and low MR. Chances are they have high MR if they have high HP, so you need void staff to actually make it work. As stated by the OP, its heavy synergy with Rylai's (and also DoTs) means it's not a complete item on its own.

Lich Bane does not work on its own, it needs a lot of AP to scale. Overall, while it does tend to try and fill a tower killing niche, its power level is not high enough to warrant buying it unless your kit has heavy synergy with it (see Ziggs). It's mostly a burst enhancer for assassins. If it's supposed to help kill towers, it should give you some incentive to use its damage against towers.

Morellonomicon tries to do many different things and kinda fails at all of them. High AP? Not really, 80 is on the low side. High CDR? Yes, but you need mana to make that work and... it's mana regen alone is good, but not good enough. The grievous wound is very hard to trigger compared to Mortal Reminder.

Seraph's is a very strong item, however you need to stack it to actually access the active, so the accessibility is heavily gated. It also fills 3 niches that don't quite go together. One is a heavy mana item, another is a high AP item and the third one is a survivability item. This, plus the fact that you need to be able to fill it up quickly means it's an EXTREMELY niche item.

Zhonya's active is good, but it's actually killing diversity AND the item's actual power.

Banner is arguably not a mage item and more of an AP scaling support item.

63536895_DEL15 votes

I agree with you're post but a lot of ADC's really are huge problems that the update made stupidly overpowered with no chance of being balanced.

ForgiveColour4 votes

a lot of adc are problems

Oh yeah you mean corki and graves? Bot lane adc has the least impact on the game rofl

10Tickler9 votes

Tell that to the seven-minute Five-man ganks ;_;

63536895_DEL18 votes

Corki Ridiculous mixed damage and a buffed rumble ult on his passive. Ezreal "Ezreal is abusing IBG, better nerf his ult cd" - Riot Graves Ridiculous damage while being stupidly tanky. Kalista Toxic mobility KogMaw The game has an attack speed cap for a reason, but riot seems to have forgotten that. MissFortune Blatantly overpowered ult even without a base damage. Make it rain is a guaranteed thunderlords proc, this has more to do with thunderlords and not mf, but still. Quinn A lot of problems adding up to make her a big problem, her blind is bullshit. Vayne %Max hp true damage is an extremely toxic mechanic that doesn't belong in the game.

Anidan17 votes

%max hp true damage isn't a toxic concept. Hell, I'm not even going to expand on that because I shouldn't have to. Certain implementations of that mechanic can be bullshit, but she has to hit you 3 times in a row, without opportunity to switch targets, if she wants that true damage. Complaining about Vayne's true damage at this point is pretty pointless. It's probably the most fair way of adding the damage type, because she's all about sustained damage and that forces her into that pattern if she wants to use the mechanic.

Mazariamonti6 votes

{quoted}

%max hp true damage isn't a toxic concept. Hell, I'm not even going to expand on that because I shouldn't have to. Certain implementations of that mechanic can be bullshit, but she has to hit you 3 times in a row, without opportunity to switch targets, if she wants that true damage. Complaining about Vayne's true damage at this point is pretty pointless. It's probably the most fair way of adding the damage type, because she's all about sustained damage and that forces her into that pattern if she wants to use the mechanic.

I think it's toxic when it appears where it should not, like on tanks.

Valexfor5 votes

I think the %Max Health true damage is not toxic itself, what makes it toxic is what's around it (huge mobility that makes it easy to proc or maybe some kind of long hard cc or even a combinatio of both like some small mobility boost like a ms boost paired with an average spammable slow). In Vayne's case it's that she can proc the 3 hits far too easily with too much safety since she can just aa-q-e you as early as level 3, meaning you CAN'T contest that most of the times and even when you should be able to, in the best case scenario you are just damaging her back trading damage for damage and hoping you hurt her more or at least have more sustain, this makes vayne pretty much a stat check like Xin Zhao, WW, Udyr, Volibear, Irelia most of the game but you also scale as an hypercarry so later on your stat check will ALWAYS be in your favour. Add the stun on the e that is far too easy to proc most of the times and you get why she's pretty toxic right now. If her E didn't apply stacks of silver bolts or wouldn't disable you for up to 2 seconds (at max range condemn can disable an opponent for 0.5 seconds from the knockback + 1.5 seconds from the stun) she would be more fair. She's not unbalanced or broken or op, she's just a bit unfair to play against but far from op. This is obviousyl my opinion, feel free to disagree.

J E B A ł T E D10 votes

To be fair.. you kind of purposely lacked the info given for AP items to make it seem like it is worse than it is. For example, on IE you said "Increase damage output" and for Deathcap you put "raw power"

Don't put on that deceiving act bro. If you want to make a point then don't leave out finer details like that

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

Fair point dude.

So, as a comparison, Rabbadons/IE are the comparison for AP and AD. However, when AD wants a fairly tough defensive item, they have Maw, Scimitar, Steraks (Maybe not ideal but it does give damage), PD, etc. There are a few more items but I don't wanna talk your ear off. If a mage wants a defensive item that gives AP, you have...well, Rylais, RoA, Abyssal and Zhyonas. Not only are those items pretty slim but some are just health bonuses. Maw gives you damage, MR, a shield and a lifegrip effect. PD gives you crit, attack speed and a nifty duel effect. Most of the AP items are just flat stat increases.

Sp33d Zer03 votes

But for mages, you forget Iceborne, Banner, you forget seraph's....

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

Iceborn is more of a tank item, Ezreal nonwithstanding. It gives way more armor and the field scales with armor. Lichbane would be the alternative unless you're a tanky mage.

Banner is primarily meant to be a support item, everyone's just abusing it because it's SO GOOD right now. (As is Zzrot.)

Seraphs is an evolution of AA Staff so I don't think it counts. It also requires a fairly sizeable investment so you won't really get the most out of it until far later than when you actually buy it. At that point it's a nice bonus, not a "What I buy the item for"

In some ways ADCs are abusing items "not meant for them" with stuff like Steraks and maybe Maw. Still, comparative to the items "not meant" for mages but could be used by them? Mages once more lack in that category as well.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

I would argue Maw was meant for ADCs as it gave AS during it's proc until the most recent nerf, Steraks was only really used on kalista as far as I can recall, and even then it got nerfed for adc's and now is really only good on bruisers and tanks.

But Iceborne is not unheard of for mages. It is quite strong on people like Kassadin, Ekko, I have even seen Diana's make great use of it when they want to trade some damage for survivability, much like an adc would with Sterakk's.

Banner againnst an AP heavy team is almost as mandatory as abyssal or Grail is for it's raw stat distribution, aura, AND amazing active, similar to how you would build maw for dealing with an ap heavy team

Tychusfindlay9194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BX17OW47,comment-id=000d0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-04T19:58:04.519+0000)

I would argue Maw was meant for ADCs as it gave AS during it's proc until the most recent nerf, Steraks was only really used on kalista as far as I can recall, and even then it got nerfed for adc's and now is really only good on bruisers and tanks.

But Iceborne is not unheard of for mages. It is quite strong on people like Kassadin, Ekko, I have even seen Diana's make great use of it when they want to trade some damage for survivability, much like an adc would with Sterakk's.

Banner againnst an AP heavy team is almost as mandatory as abyssal or Grail is for it's raw stat distribution, aura, AND amazing active, similar to how you would build maw for dealing with an ap heavy team

WRONG.

Graves can use steraks, kalista as you noted can use steraks, but I've even seen vayne's with steraks (and vayne, because of her hilarious tank busting skills, is SUPPOSED TO BE A SQUISHY MOTHERFUCKER, steraks allows her to mitigate this weakness of hers too well outside of building a straight up tank item). ADC's ar epicking up these items because although the damage is around a mediocre 20-25 damage for most adcs, it gives them a nice health bonus, and in a fight when they're supposed to be squishy, not only does it prevent them from dying by making them gain a massive shield, but then it adds another base 25% bonus to make them have up to 50-60 (remember, steraks gives you +25% base damage, so when its unique passive activates, thats another 25% base on top of the buffed base you already have from its non-unique passive) bonus ad from that item, on top of still having the massive health upgrade that they can lifesteal back to (and the synergy between maw and steraks is MORONIC on ANY ADC).

So anyways, yeah, WRONG.

Respakt2 votes

Iceborn doesnt even give ap anymore, 500 mana doesnt really make it a mage item

forresto2 votes

it doesn't have ap anymore. they removed that

Hawkefire2 votes

Now I would agree on Iceborn had they not removed the AP from it....but since the AP was removed from it I think it is safe to say that it is pretty much solely a tank item.

YCitizenSnipsY2 votes

I think I've spotted your problem. You are presenting this like it has always been the case when this itemization is only half a year old.

For three years item 3006 item 3031 item 3087 item 3035 item 3072 Was built just about every game and you only substituted if item 3046 happend to be better than item 3087 at the time. You also got item 3153 if you were Vayne or Twitch or item 3078 if you were Corki or Ezreal. But ultimately that is what 90% of all adc builds looked like for years. The only time you could afford to get something different like item 3085 or Zephyr was if you were stomping.

Also your only two options for defense were item 3026 or item 3102 .

AP has been more versatile than AD for years. That was one of the reasons for the update. The only thing they could do now is a similar thing for AP itemization somewhere down the road.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Not quite.

The holy trinity you listed of Shiv/IE/LW was good for way longer than two years with Shiv used to be PD. Now, Riot did try to diversify and expand build paths with projects like Essence Reaver, Muramana, etc...but they didn't pan out. At least comparative to mages. This came back to the problem of ADCs all occupying similar roles. Ezreal, for his spam happy ways, still built fairly similar to other ADCs. MF built like an ADC, as did corki, etc. So they finally went "Oh ok we gotta expand how ADCs play."

However, mages (While more divesified) are only slightly better than ADCs when it comes to this scenario. Sure, they always had more items, but you still saw the trinity of Zimmerman's Powerglass/ Spook Hat/ Unique Third item depending on your character. While mages need a little touch up, it's their itemization that's more in shambles than the mages themselves.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Maw, Scimitar, Sterak's, PD - you just named the four defensive options ADCs have.

Rylai's, RoA, Abyssal, Zhonya's, Seraph's - I count 5 for APs.

The main difference, imo, is broad spectrum (AP have both resistances and HP, as well a powerful mage-pattern active - unload, golden mode for cooldowns or your team to bail you out. They also have an anti-burst shield, although it is less accessible than just buying Sterak's), whereas ADCs have access to more focused defenses (MR, anti-burst, ADC-pattern active - use Scimitar to continue your sustained damage, sustained 1-vs-1 defense).

TNHA Baritone2 votes

If Seraphs is a defensive item, why isnt BT ?

Only Play Darius8 votes

You literally just defined power creep.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

Somewhat.

Power Creep, at least to me, is when old elements of the game are left in the dust because of newer elements. You see this in hearthstone where certain things just outclass and overwrite anything done before. Rather, what Riot is trying to do is power normalization. They don't want to make one aspect better, they want to normalize things and bring everyone up to a better level.

Now, are they doing a good job of this? Well....eh.

Niaphim2 votes

No, it is when every update increases damage output, mobility and other stats in an infinite loop. AD champions being RELATIVELY strong is less of an issue. AD champions being ABSOLUTELY disgustingly strong is the problem. Are you happy with how turrets die in 3 seconds? AD overall needs toning down, then AP rework needs to keep champions' strength at the same level as it is now while adding variety. "Bringing everyone up to a better level" is a correct perception of what is happening, but increasing everybody's strength is just not healthy for the game balance.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Not uh, not really.

Power creep is when things consistently and constantly get stronger and overwrite old things. Champions from other seasons were examples of this, some outright being better in every way than older ones. However, ADC changes didn't outright "make these characters better", they redefined and reworked their niches. Were some characters better? Yes, but most had a general bar set and worked comparative to others.

Power Creep would be taking the mage update and making them flat-out better than the ADCs. If that does happen then yeah, that's an issue of PC but ADCs being redefined as a whole isn't power creep.

BastionKross5 votes

Now, are they doing a good job of this? Well....eh.

I'll boldly answer that question for you: no.

Not because the balance is bad, but because Riot is taking far too long to bring other classes up to marksman levels. I know better than anyone that Riot moves at a snail's pace, but we've gone months with one class being elevated over the others simply because they got to go first.

It's great if all the classes eventually get to where marksmen are now, but in the meantime things are going to be shoddy. And with what we know of Riot, that length of that meantime is months, if not years. That is completely unacceptable.

Dengeden3 votes

That's a lie and you know it. item 3001 item 3165 item 3174 item 3027 item 3092

If you don't correctly analyze the game it'll screw over the game hard when Rito inevitably listens to you.

Sp33d Zer015 votes

Ok, let's look at it this way, Morrello's effect is a worse Executioners blade (800g) Athene's grail is good, but niche for a lot of mages and cases, abyssal is usually prefered, which is along the lines of maw, but still worse. Rod of ages does not have a counterpart for adcs, which is probably a good thing. Frost queens claim is a support item. It's taken on some mids for its utility, but it was not meant for them, just as Cinderhulk was not intended for top laners, but was abused in season 5

10Tickler8 votes

Rod of Ages does not have a counterpart of ADC's

item 3053, item 3022, item 3071

Excuse you? All three offer Health, Damage, and other nifty little things, just like Rod, without the scaling that makes them take forever to be gold-efficient.

Sp33d Zer04 votes

But the thing you have to remember is Frozen mallet is equivalent to Rylais, Black cleaver is really never seen on adcs except for maybe MF, and steraks is nothing like RoD of ages, as it actually falls off late game a bit as opposed to Rod scaling up. All three are good items, but the only one that is really ever seen on adc is sterakks, and I never see it anymore post nerf on anyone except for bruisers and tanks.

TurquoiseYoshi5 votes

Well, for one thing, Rod of Ages is more gold efficient than any of them, on-buy, not counting passives. It ends up being the second most gold efficient full item in the game, edged out by a fully stacked Manamune.

DeloricVI8 votes

And you know that's not nearly the extent of tools for an ADC to use.

item 3147 For a bit more damage item 3026 at least 90% of carries take this because it gives both kinds of resistance and a Zilean ult item 3033 for if you need some armor pen but no one has a spectactular amount of health item 3071 for some tankiness and armor shred item 3053 for some extra time in teamfights and a little extra damage item 3022 for extra kiting ability and tankiness item 3072 for disgusting lifesteal item 3139 if AP is cc'ing your ass to death

But no, AP itemization is totally on par with AD itemization. No, you're right they totally have just as many options.

Dengeden2 votes

Duskblade is terrible on ADCs that aren't Jhin (and even him). GA is a universal item. Mallet, Mortal Reminder and Black Cleaver are never bought. And have you played this game? No ADC ever gets BT over McS, why do you think we hate them? Screw Sterak's though, even if Kalista is the only one to use it successfully.

DeloricVI4 votes

I'm pointing out the options.

Also, who else buys GA, other than maybe tanks? I haven't seen a mage build this item... pretty much ever. Have you? It's clearly gained a niche as an item for ADC's. And tanks that want to be assholes, but still.

Most MF players I've seen build black cleaver.

I've built Mortal Reminder for team comps that have not tanks but build just enough armor to be annoying, or if the enemy team has tanks that are woefully behind and making dominik's regards a little bit overkill.

I see plenty of people buy BT; it along with duskblade and (I think) a few others have the highest static AD bonus in the game.

I haven't seen people build mallet before, but it's an option, and this is what it's about. It doesn't matter which are actually picked; it's the number of options that matter. I've seen a lot of people debate about it and some generally agree that it's a good item on adc's.

I'd also like to ask you... who builds frost queen's claim? And I'm excluding supports from this. For a while I saw it in the mid lane, but people realized that, unless you're support, the stats are pretty trash, the gold passive doesn't work until you actually finish the item (unless you're shit at cs'ing, which is a big problem in and of itself) and the active is alright, but the community decided that this was still a support item and that supports are the only ones who are going to buy it.

Dengeden2 votes

GA is one of the worst items ADCs can buy unless you can win the fight if the enemy team focuses you. It roots you when the passive proc's, what could be worse on the most position-dependent role in the game?

Interesting choice on MF, even if it is kind of hard to fit into a traditional ADC build. More expensive than the LWs and doesn't give the same durability a LS item would.

You make Mortal Reminder sound like a "win more" item on ADCs, which it is.

Ye, ADCs get BT and nothing else, even if it is quite apparent that they should get a different LS item. It's one of their syndromes.

"Discussed" Mallet as in "What if the jungler can't give me red buff?" or "discussed" it as in "lol, adcs and healthstacking so OP"?

Lulu builds FQC on a regular basis. Personally I see it as a nice way to get 10% CDR. If you have 2200g on your first back (it happens or 1400g with Codex, I'd consider it an option too.

Sp33d Zer04 votes

Ok, then let's look at the other options for mages then. item 3504 if you are a mage that can make use of shields/ healing, such as orianna and you have an attack speed reliant team. item 3007 If you use a lot of mana, want a lot of AP, and want a shield for their burst and more survivabilty (kinda like a better steraks) item 3060 If you are against an ap heavy team and want to abuse a 4v5 or split pushing item 3025 If you want a slow, more surviability, and are an auto weaving mage like TF, kassadin, Lux, diana, etc. item 3285 If you really want to fuck up that one person's day. item 3100 In case you are an auto weaving mage who fucks up people's day. item 3089 For the reason of IT'S A FRICKEN HAT item 3152 In case you need more sustain.

Mages have just as many options as ADCs, but a lot of mages tunnel on what will give them the most oomph for their hit, just like how adcs ALWAYS get IE, a crit AS item, and a last whisper.

LightIsMyPath3 votes

Gauntlet on Lux?? Ardent censor on Orianna? I think I heard everything now lmao

DeloricVI6 votes

I'll play your game.

Ardent Censor has been complained about all the time. The only person that anyone thinks it's actually useful on is Alistar. It's incredibly niche, and there are so few people that can use it to do much of anything.

Archangel's Staff is a huge gamble; you never know if it's going to be useful before the end of the game. More games end early now in season 6 with the increased death timers and how devastating a little bit of AD is to a tower. I've seen tons of games where the adc or as assassin gets out of control around 18 minutes in, and then the game's over in 5 more minutes.

No one builds banner of command because it barely gives any AP, barely any teams are AP heavy these days, and most people buy Zz'rot instead, which hasn't established itself a nice little niche in any role.

Icebourn is way too overloaded to be considered just an AP option, and no one builds it on AP champions. A lot of AP champions don't have autos in their combos. The most popular person to use this item is Ezreal, and ADC, or any number of tanks that can really get in close to use the aoe slow.

Luden's serves pretty much the same purpose as shiv or runaan's, to spread your damage out.

Lich bane is very niche, and just a bit more common on mages than icebourn

Rabadon's is essentially the equivalent of I.E. for ADC's

Will of the Ancients? Really? I don't think even Vlad builds that very often. Most people who benefit from it build Gunblade before even thinking about it. To make it do much of anything, you need to have insane burst, which you usually get by being ahead. If you're ahead, you need sustain less than when you're behind. Most people need to build Zhonia's to not die before ever considering Will of the Ancients.

You want to talk about limited options? The one thing that everyone can recommend you build on mages is the fucking trinity of AP items, Luden's, Rabadon's, And Zhonia's. That's it. That's 3 things you can expect a mage to build every time, and they're probably going to. Without these items, they're mostly worthless. I mean, you have RoA, which I'll admit is a good item, but other than that, ADC's have so many different choices to do a lot of the same things.

If you want Lifesteal, you have BT, Black Cleaver, Mercurial Scimitar, Death's Dance, and Blade of the Ruined King.

If you want magic resist, you have Maw, Mercurial Scimitar, Wit's End, and Guardian Angel. I could cite Dervish Blade here, but I'm not because I know that no one buys it.

If you want crit, you've got Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Rapid Fire Cannon, Statikk Shiv, Triforce, Essence Reaver, and Runaan's Hurricane.

The list goes on and on. AP may be everywhere, but mages don't have a valid form of "lifesteal" to work with. Spell Vamp is pretty god-awful unless you're Vlad or Akali, who last I checked builds hybrid anyway.

If you want armor as a mage, you can only really get Zhonia's, maybe Icebourn Gauntlet, but we've discussed how very niche that item is, and also Frozen Heart, which will totally cripple your damage.

We have two options for health regen of pretty much any kind, both of which make your damage output pretty pathetic, and one is a hybrid item that you probably want for an active slow than anything else.

Mages also have no tank buster items. Liandry's Torment and Void Staff don't help all that much on someone with 6000 health anyway, even if you could completely ignore their magic resist.

I could do a huge thread just talking about how much more valid AD's options are over AP's options. Most of the examples that everyone is using is totally irrelevant or so much of a niche item you might as well not bother unless you are one of a very select few champions.

Gnart Even Close3 votes

i think part of the problem is that adcs have crit scaling, when no other group has 4 (or 5) multipliers. mages have only AP and magic pen, when adc's have AD, AS, armor pen, crit chance, and IE's extra crit damage. if for example, spells could critically strike or tanks could dodge, then they would be able to have as many scaling options. not saying this is a good thing to implement, just that it should always be part of the picture when discussing adc's

agbudar3 votes

the problem that many people have with riot and me as well is that they create a game that thrives on a clear imbalance/favor towards certain champs.

adc have been allowed to be the top dog for years and they got even more tools then before

juggernauts for example even if they were broken lasted like what? 1-2 month's before they got hammered down?

DeloricVI2 votes

item 3157 for power and defense.

"Power"

lol

Ackelope4 votes

Is it not true? it does give 100 ap still, among the highest values of ap items.

DeloricVI3 votes

I was just poking fun at the AP nerfs on Zhonia's, and how weak the item is overall.

I mean, the AP is alright, but upgrading to Zhonia's gives you... what... +5 ap in stats on a large rod and seeker's armguard when you upgrade? You pay ~1000 gold for the active. It's pretty hard to justify, unless you 100% need it. In which case, it's not as good as the other damage items you can buy.

Ackelope4 votes

I think it is a little too expensive right now, but the active really is extremely powerful. I'm no expert on AP itemisation though, so I'd rather not argue it and find myself to be completely incorrect....

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

Biased post.

Mages also have Rylais to constantly kite most champs... Mages have WoA for sustain Mages have void staff to deal with champs who stack MR Mages can build Ludens Echo for siege and more burst Mages can build Morellonomicon or Athenes for sustain and cdr

I play Malzahar a lot and there are alot of options to build him depending on the enemy team or on how you prefer to play him. You can go the safe route starting with RoA into Liandries into Rylais or you can go the damage build with Morello/Athenes into Dcap into Void Staff. You can also go with the RoA/Luden's build if you wanna sit mid and siege.

Allahu Barackbar4 votes

Mmm...this post is pretty biased itself. So I doubt you should really call him out on it. And Malzahar is a bad example to bring up because, quite frankly, he is a rare exception amongst mages when it comes to builds. You can build almost any type of AP itemization on Malzahar because his kit allows it. His ratios, his % damage, DoTs, mana costs, etc. all aid in this.

Let me give you some examples of poor itemization choices that AP mages have.

  1. item 3153 and item 3151 . Liandrys' gives health, AP, and magic pen. And a HP% damage DoT that requires another component not found in the item to be entirely useful, thus the emphasis on item 3116 . That's two item slots in order to get the best effect from this item. Now look at BotRK; it gives AD, Attack Speed, Lifesteal, gives HP% on-hit that ALSO heals, and has an active effect that slows, deals HP% damage, and heals. Requires no other items to get the best use of this. It is a one-slot wonder.

  2. item 3156 and item 3157 . Both try to give the same thing; power with a mix of defensive stats. Hourglass gives flat AP and a small amount of armor, with a stasis active. The active in itself is a powerful tool, but also conditional. Other than that, it only gives two stats. Now let's look at item 3156 . It gives AD, Magic Resist, and a way to penetrate Hourglass' armor with its armor pen. As well as two passives, a shield and a steroid, which require no real pre-meditated usage, and are otherwise non-conditional boosts in power. If Hourglass had a MR-pen stat added to it, it may be more in line with Maw.

  3. item 3285 and item 3087 / item 3094 . Both supply similar passive effects; you move and cast abilities/attack more, you get more charges to do more damage. They both provide movement speed to help build those stacks faster, but that's about all that Luden's has going for it. It has no CDR or mana regen to help an AP caster build it up faster in combat, while Statikk and Rapidfire both have Attack Speed added onto them to make the charges come up faster. Luden's, thus, requires another CDR/Mana Regen item to make it more effective. A 2 item-slot requirement. Again, ADC raw stats beat AP itemization.

Clear statistics don't go for bias, my friend.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by CaptainMårvelous

"Wow dude you're playing like shit"
Gameplay167 comments
298
votes
Can the Cass situation from today be the beginning of a trend?
Gameplay95 comments
257
votes
How to Reward Vets (Without just dumping 30+ boxes on them)
General Discussion341 comments
254
votes
Please make Taric's V-neck scale with armor.
Story, Art, & Sound48 comments
242
votes
Riot, you're working yourselves deeper into a corner with skins.
Story, Art, & Sound135 comments
241
votes
Gotta say: Not a fan of Kayle's new look.
Story, Art, & Sound267 comments
237
votes