If Karthus gets a nerf, please do the following as a sort of compensation minibuff

darkdill·Nov 29, 2018·19 votes·10,907 views

Seeing as Riot views Karthus as strong right now and probably will nerf him because of his synergy with Dark Harvest and PoM, I'd at least like to see the damage cadence on his Defile changed from 1 second to 0.25 seconds. Namely, change it so that it deals its damage every 0.25 seconds, but with the same total DPS (it'd just tick more often).

This might seem like a buff, but you need to also consider that it'd be a consistency pass on him, as Amumu, Singed, and other Champions have such a cadence on their DoTs. However, Karthus hasn't been updated to that, so this feels like a good time to update him.

30 Comments

DM For Rat FactsNov 29, 201822 votes

Buff a rune way out of proportion.

Entire metas develop around this rune.

Nerf all relevant picks in this meta.

Nerf the rune when a new meta starts forming.

Nobody picks that rune anymore.

Never compensate those champions.

item 3070

Póppy ChuloNov 29, 201810 votes

Rest in piece devourer users.

DM For Rat FactsNov 29, 20184 votes

Shyvana :(

Automated RivenNov 29, 20182 votes

Defile is also the only aoe left that deals full damage instantly upon activation. This would be a Nerf because your losing a entire tick of damage.

Daddy AntsNov 29, 20182 votes

7.5 / 12.5 / 17.5 / 22.5 / 27.5 (+ 5% AP) every 0.25 seconds

is the same as

30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 20% AP) every second.

BârdNov 29, 20182 votes

Or, here's an idea, lets not nerf Karthus and just fix Dark Harvest.

Sebastit7dNov 29, 20181 votes

But... that would make the game balanced...

mack9112Nov 29, 20181 votes

rune makes him viable it just needs a little more tuning

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

It currently deals 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 20% AP) every second.

So should we reduce it to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 (+ 5% AP) every 0.25 seconds?

Automated RivenNov 29, 20187 votes

Why nerf it. Leave it at 30/50/70/90/110 (+20%AP) and just have the damage tick every .25 seconds.

Why nerf it to 20/40/60/80/100 from what it currently does? That's a pretty big nerf. Especially considerig that defile already does a tick of damage immediately upon activation. So if your only in defile for 1 second you take half damage with the proposed changes already.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-29T07:32:09.446+0000)

Why nerf it. Leave it at 30/50/70/90/110 (+20%AP) and just have the damage tick every .25 seconds.

Yeah, 440 (+ 80% AP) every second sounds fun don't it?

Basically a rank 2 ult around you every second.

Why nerf it to 20/40/60/80/100 from what it currently does?

Because OP said Karthus needed nerfs?

That's a pretty big nerf.

Not really? You're losing 10 flat damage per rank. The ratio is still the same.

Especially considerig that defile already does a tick of damage immediately upon activation.

So just keep the immediate tick upon activation?

I didn't say anything about removing it.

So if your only in defile for 1 second you take half damage with the proposed changes already.

Half damage?

Is this hyperbole?

It's only a flat 10 damage decrease.

DearPearNov 29, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T07:42:58.234+0000)

Yeah, 440 (+ 80% AP) every second sounds fun don't it?

Basically a rank 2 ult around you every second.

So just keep the immediate tick upon activation?

I didn't say anything about removing it.

Half damage?

Is this hyperbole?

It's only a flat 10 damage decrease.

You managed to misunderstand pretty much everything you've read. That's quite an outstanding performance.

Yeah, 440 (+ 80% AP) every second sounds fun don't it?

He did not say that the spell should proc its 1s tick damage every 0.25s instead. He said that the spell should proc 1/4 of its 1s tick damage every 1/4 seconds (0.25s) keeping the dps the same but gaining consistancy and readability.

Because OP said Karthus needed nerfs?

No. He said that Riot will probably nerf Karthus and if they do they should at least compensate with this QoL change, which brings no added power to Karthus.

Not really? You're losing 10 flat damage per rank. The ratio is still the same.

Yeah, losing a third of its base damage lvl 1 is not a huge nerf. Not at all. lol.

So just keep the immediate tick upon activation?

I didn't say anything about removing it.

He never assumed that you said that.

Half damage?

Is this hyperbole?

It's only a flat 10 damage decrease.

If you change karthus' E so it ticks every 0.25s for 1/4 of its full 1s damage, then the first tick is logically 1/4 of what it was before the change. It means that before the change you'd get 2 ticks within the first second (meaning a total of 2 times the 1s damage) and after the change you'd get 5 ticks within the first second (meaning a total of 5*1/4 = 5/4 times of the 1s damage, which is pretty much 37.5% less damage).

That's not even considering the nerf you proposed.

So yeah, that's not an hyperbole, that's a factual situation.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You managed to misunderstand pretty much everything you've read. That's quite an outstanding performance.

He did not say that the spell should proc its 1s tick damage every 0.25s instead. He said that the spell should proc 1/4 of its 1s tick damage every 1/4 seconds (0.25s) keeping the dps the same but gaining consistancy and readability.

I'd blame the wording that was used.

No. He said that Riot will probably nerf Karthus and if they do they should at least compensate with this QoL change, which brings no added power to Karthus.

And I just said that if Karthus gets nerfed, this, what I consider minor, is probably not a nerf that'd do the biggest harm, especially considering the added benefit it just got of applying damage every 0.25 seconds.

Yeah, losing a third of its base damage lvl 1 is not a huge nerf. Not at all. lol.

As if Karthus players actively use E at early levels.

It drains too much mana for too little damage.

He never assumed that you said that.

Then I misunderstood.

If you change karthus' E so it ticks every 0.25s for 1/4 of its full 1s damage, then the first tick is logically 1/4 of what it was before the change. It means that before the change you'd get 2 ticks within the first second (meaning a total of 2 times the 1s damage) and after the change you'd get 5 ticks within the first second (meaning a total of 5*1/4 = 5/4 times of the 1s damage, which is pretty much 37.5% less damage).

That's not even considering the nerf you proposed.

So yeah, that's not an hyperbole, that's a factual situation.

It only deals "half" damage within the very first second, and then continues to deal normal damage afterwards.

Defile is supposed to be a DPS spell anyway, the upfront damage within the first second of activation isn't supposed to be the core feature of the spell.

And even if it is, we can just make it so the damage it deals upon activation is a full 1 second's worth of damage immediately, and then the damage it deals every 0.25 seconds.

So the initial activation can deal 20 - 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 (+ 20% AP) immediately, and then 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25 (+ 5% AP) every 0.25 seconds.

(Assuming my proposition isn't completely out of the question).

DearPearNov 29, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T09:15:38.211+0000)

I'd blame the wording that was used.

No native english speaker and the wording felt just fine to me.

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T09:15:38.211+0000)

And I just said that if Karthus gets nerfed, this, what I consider minor, is probably not a nerf that'd do the biggest harm, especially considering the added benefit it just got of applying damage every 0.25 seconds.

That's just a simple QoL change that already slightly reduces his damage output by a varying amount depending on how long he applies his E for every cast. The nerf might be minor at later stages of the game, but this is an awfully strong nerf early on.

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T09:15:38.211+0000)

As if Karthus players actively use E at early levels.

Yup they do!

It only deals "half" damage within the very first second, and then continues to deal normal damage afterwards.

That's right, the longer your keep your E activated the more it offsets the lost damage. But there are still numerous situations where the damage loss is really damaging.

And even if it is, we can just make it so the damage it deals upon activation is a full 1 second's worth of damage immediately, and then the damage it deals every 0.25 seconds.

I guess that could be possible, depending on riot's code. But that would lack consistency. But that's not out of the question I guess.

So the initial activation can deal 20 - 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 (+ 20% AP) immediately, and then 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25 (+ 5% AP) every 0.25 seconds.

(Assuming my proposition isn't completely out of the question).

I mean, I'm still unsure why you would want to nerf that spell, especially after stating that it does too little for how much it costs early on. You could do a slight shift of power though, having the spell deal 40/55/70/85/100 per seconds instead, making it better early on and reducing Karthus dps later on. But again, I'm not sure that's a relevant change.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No native english speaker and the wording felt just fine to me.

Then I either suck at English or I just generally misunderstand what people are trying to say.

That's just a simple QoL change that already slightly reduces his damage output by a varying amount depending on how long he applies his E for every cast. The nerf might be minor at later stages of the game, but this is an awfully strong nerf early on.

And I still fail to see why it would have the biggest effect when E isn't used that frequently in the early levels regardless.

Yup they do!

I beg to differ.

That's right, the longer your keep your E activated the more it offsets the lost damage. But there are still numerous situations where the damage loss is really damaging.

Perhaps if you're somehow trying to last hit with it with the initial activation damage, but I'd have to question why you're last hitting with your E instead of your Q or your auto attacks.

I guess that could be possible, depending on riot's code. But that would lack consistency. But that's not out of the question I guess.

It either keeps the upfront damage but loses consistency, or it loses the upfront damage but then keeps consistency.

I mean, I'm still unsure why you would want to nerf that spell, especially after stating that it does too little for how much it costs early on. You could do a slight shift of power though, having the spell deal 40/55/70/85/100 per seconds instead, making it better early on and reducing Karthus dps later on. But again, I'm not sure that's a relevant change.

I'd be willing to settle for 40/55/70/85/100 as well.

Automated RivenNov 29, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T11:11:35.433+0000) I beg to differ.

Perhaps if you're somehow trying to last hit with it with the initial activation damage, but I'd have to question why you're last hitting with your E instead of your Q or your auto attacks.

Karthus absolutely uses e to cs ?? it basically an extra auto under tower when karthus's notouriously bad auto attacks come back to bite his ass.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BRi1xcmY,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-29T15:46:55.380+0000)

Karthus absolutely uses e to cs ?? it basically an extra auto under tower when karthus's notouriously bad auto attacks come back to bite his ass.

But is it's intended purpose to be a last hit tool you only activate for one second and then deactivate? Or is it's purpose to be a continuous AOE DPS spell?

Can't we just up his basic attack projectile speed like they did with Lissandra?

Automated RivenNov 29, 20181 votes

Karthus is supposed to cs with his q. That's the purpose of his design, to have a spell which functions as his auto attack. His e and auto attacks are fall back mechanics. Now the better people get the more they cs with autos and Q's. But flat out buffing his autos so they can be reliable may end up with karthus being too strong.

PepijndMNov 29, 20181 votes

Warlord Rhinark, DearPear,

I hereby declare you husband and wife. You get to fight out which is which.

I wish you many years of not-too-unhappiness.

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Warlord Rhinark, DearPear,

I hereby declare you husband and wife. You get to fight out which is which.

I wish you many years of not-too-unhappiness.

I'd rather be the wife.

iamthegoatofwarNov 29, 20181 votes

...his wording was fine though?

Warlord RhinarkNov 29, 20181 votes

{quoted}

...his wording was fine though?

"Leave it at 30/50/70/90/110 (+20%AP) and have the damage tick every .25 seconds."

That wording, to me, sounds like 30/50/70/90/110 (+20%AP) every 0.25 seconds.

No "1/4 of the damage every 0.25" was mentioned in the sentence.

Velzard of KozNov 29, 20181 votes

I'd blame the wording that was used.

The wording was totally perfect, he specifically emphasized that the damage will remain the same, I don't really understand how that would be unclear to anyone unless you really wanted to make post against his point so you like didn't read any of that.

darkdillNov 29, 20181 votes

This. The damage per second would be the same as on live.

DeusVultNov 29, 20182 votes

It would be 7.5/12.5/17.5/22.5/27.5 (+5% AP) every 0.25 seconds. Your numbers are a slight nerf

And since Riot doesnt implement 0.5 numbers on base damage skills, you could "buff" it up to 8/13/18/23/28 +5%AP per tick. (would equal out to a 2 base damage increase across the board, which is almost nothing, and pre DH change karthus was pretty mediocre.

Frontline FuryNov 29, 20181 votes

Karthus IS strong. He's been buffed for the 20 min games of the current season, but preseason allows for more 30 minute games.

His build path is extremely flexible for a mage

His Q is so wide it's near-undodgeable, besides outranging most marksmen, costing practically no mana and dealing extremely high base damage through leveling alone, before items are applied (this is the reason support Karthus is a thing)

Robert SmithNov 29, 20183 votes

If you cast his q on the center of a champ, every champ except unmounted kled can walk out of it. Placing it in front of them all you have to do is walk away from it.