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So if Spellvamp was unhealthy...

ModJango Mage··118 votes·6,877 views

...and you removed Will of the Ancients beacuse of this. Than why exactly item 3812 is a good design...? While will of the ancients only healed you from abilities that dealt magic dmg(not counting resistances), this item heals you for every kind of phisical dmg you deal and also its gives this bleed effect so you are even harder to kill. It even has the same stats but obviously instead of ap it has ad. Its also strange that spellvamp works for both phisical and magic dmg while lifesteal doesnt work for magic dmg exept for corki. Spellvamp is slowly getting removed from champion abilities for example both Akali and Ryze lost the raw spellvamp stat an im sure Morgana is also going to lose it. So im wondering why Rhaast can literally have a spellvamp passive which heals him for phisical abilitiy dmg, which in theory is unhealthy. EDIT 1: I forgot to mention item 3156 which also gives you 10% spellvamp if its passive is activated and it remains until you leave combat. And it also happens to be an AD item... And just like Rhaast our beloved LeeSin has a spellvamp buff for himself too, that at max rank grants him 30% spellvamp. I guess its gonna be reworked in to somekind of flat heal if hes going to have a GU but wanted to mention this too. EDIT 2: DaNinad pointed out in the comments that item 2140 is literally giving you spellvamp...once again for phisical dmg.

EDIT 3: A lot of you guys are pointing out that it was only viable on XY champion(the mentions mostly being vlad) so heres a list of how many champions had benefits from it:

[{quoted}](name=Jango Mage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BP1K1wAY,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-07-05T21:42:36.868+0000)

It was stronger on some champions and weaker on others but it defenetly not only worked on just a few champs. Heres a list of how many champions benefitted from it: Big Benefits: Akali Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Karthus Katarina Kennen Mordekaiser MorganaRumble RyzeSwain Vladimir Chogath Nunu Smaller Benefits: Ahri AurelionSol Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Kassadin Lissandra Nidalee SingedViktor So as we can see there were quite a few champs that could have used the spellvamp stat in some form. And since it gave good stats it could have been built on other champs as well for even smaller benefits from the passive.

221 Comments

Ralanr76 votes

It was more that spellvamp items were too much balanced around champions like Vladimir and Swain not breaking them without them being garbage on other mages.

Deaths Dance is out of hand imo, but I actually don't see it on AD champions with in built sustain all that often beyond Illaoi. So AD champions with sustain actually have enough to not need it most of the time. Unlike mages.

ModJango Mage4 votes

Firstly dont call them item's' since, there were two items that gave you spellvamp, and on of them item 3146 were not built non any mage what so ever. They were balanced more around champs like Jax or XinZhao And the other spellvamp item was Will of the Ancients that i have already mentioned before. And yes its true that it was balanced around Vladimir( and also him tbhMordekaiser) Even tough i have built it on Swain it was kind of a rare thing to see to be built on swain. And from my experience it was not a bad or a weak item, as most people have tought, its was just as underapriciated as item 3040 is right now...

EDIT: Forgot to mention item 3124 which around that time also gave you 10% spellvamp but it soon got moved to item 3156. Not like any of these were built on mages anyways.

Ralanr14 votes

So why bother having items that were basically balanced around so few champions which made them terrible picks for mages that might like to have some sustain?

ModJango Mage9 votes

Thats the opposite of what i just said. I said it was viable but undersappriciated on other mages. Also with this logic we should remove the following items: item 3003 item 3060 item 3146 item 3124 item 3056 item 3091 item 3512 item 3075 item 3004 and maybe even the Lethality items since there are not many ad assasins that are using them but in a lot of cases those are balanced around adcs.

Ralanr8 votes

The spellvamp items also made or broke Vlad and probably made reworking him with those in mind all the more difficult (and changing nothing of his major problems).

ModJango Mage1 votes

The spellvamp items

That 's' in the end is still pokeing my eye since there was only one that was reliant on him. His major problems IMO were the following:

  • His E was a really weird and unsatisfieing spell to use. -Got solved with his new E.
  • Constant Q spam in lane. -Got solved by lovering the dmg on it and adding the 3rd q proc which is dealing a lot more dmg, but opponents are clearly warned if hes about to use it. Its heal is annoying, yes, but since Will of The Ancients got removed, it has became less of a problem. Also becuse of its removal he has received some other heals to his kit to compensate with it.(that are easier to balance around) -His passive didnt give him that many benefits.- so it was buffed but than turned out too strong so it got reverted.

Is there anything i have missed?

Ralanr3 votes

Nope. You already pointed out that they better balance his kit without WOTA.

Tommy PickleNose1 votes

Well if you didn't know, spirit of the elder wraith was core on vlad when they were the jungle items. Wraith was the go to on any spell vamp build even singed was building it. When they changed the jungle items everyone fell back to buying wota. I never even play vlad and I know this

ModJango Mage3 votes

And when it got removed spellvamp users didnt really get anything for compensation.

Over Innsmouth3 votes

The three core WotA users (Vladimir Mordekaiser Akali ) have all been reworked at this point, and the latter two have item 3146 to play around with sustain.

Darth StepVader1 votes

{quoted}

So why bother having items that were basically balanced around so few champions which made them terrible picks for mages that might like to have some sustain?

It's not about having such as items. It's about the balance team claiming they only serve a severly limited niche thus removing them, all the while they release a brand new item ( item 3812 ) that does exactly that, used only by a few champions and that is broken as hell as far as game health goes.

Ralanr14 votes

DD wasn't even broken before the buff.

rtbf2216514122 votes

{quoted}

DD wasn't even broken before the buff.

The fact remains it is broken now. Also, if spell vamp was such an issue on those champions, nerf their innate spell vamp. It's quite a simple thing to do. I mean, we have AD LIFE STEAL IN THE GAME IN CHAMPION SKILL SETS.

Nasus Olaf LeeSin Sion Warwick

How do you think they balanced them? Luck?

If they can make melee only items, they can definitely figure out a way to make items magic only.

Ralanr1 votes

They did nerf their innate spellvamp, which made them overly reliant on spellvamp items.

The champions with AD sustain in their kits simply don't need or don't want to sacrifice other items to build more sustain. This ties into how AP item diversity sucks.

rtbf2216514122 votes

{quoted}

They did nerf their innate spellvamp, which made them overly reliant on spellvamp items.

And you are telling me other champions besides mages do not have core items they heavily rely on or heavily abuse that not getting it is not wise?

Example: Akali item 3146 Example 2: Ashe item 3031 Example 3: DrMundo item 3065 Example 4: I don't have all day.

OyddAWqJ5r3 votes

Imagine current Vladimir with WotA. Now you know why it doesn't exist.

"They can balance him around that" Like what? Delete his sustain so he's forced to buy WotA? No thank you.

ModJango Mage2 votes

When spellvamp was removed he has received a lot of other heals in his kit to balance things around and dont make him too weak. If Wota was removed these heals would need to be removed or highly reduced.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jango Mage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BP1K1wAY,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-06T09:16:47.917+0000)

When spellvamp was removed he has received a lot of other heals in his kit to balance things around and dont make him too weak. If Wota was removed these heals would need to be removed or highly reduced.

Your post contradicts itself. Unintelligible, consider revising.

Assuming you meant if WotA existed he would be nerfed. Exactly my point. He would be forced to buy WotA again, taking up one of his 6 item slots for other much needed utility items. On top of that he would have to be balanced around not being able to rush those items anymore due to the need for WotA.

Bad design. They made a good decision removing it. He has been 200x better to play as and against since its removal.

DR NEEDLEDlCK21 votes

They shouldn't have removed Will of the Ancients. If it was so damn problematic on Vlad, why not impose a penalty? For example, at that time, Riot could've given his Q 50% less benefit from spell vamp. They could've solved the problem in a good way instead of straight up remove stuff without even trying.

Spell vamp was great because it rewarded players that knew which champions could benefit from it well. Any champion with a magic damage single target spell, like less conventional candidates such as Annie (Q), Rumble (E) and Viktor (Q). Morgana could use it to get massive spell vamp. She's now the only real mage-like champ that has sustain.

Why are AD characters allowed to itemize for sustain (with no fucking cap across PLENTY of items) when AP have, what... Catalyst? Wow, up to 25 health per cast. That's some seirous sustain, guys!

Ralanr9 votes

[{quoted}](name=DR NEEDLEDlCK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BP1K1wAY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-05T20:34:04.105+0000)

They shouldn't have removed Will of the Ancients. If it was so damn problematic on Vlad, why not impose a penalty? For example, at that time, Riot could've given his Q 50% less benefit from spell vamp. They could've solved the problem in a good way instead of straight up remove stuff without even trying.

Let's make the guy who can benefit the most out of a sustain item benefit less than he should!

Spell vamp was great because it rewarded players that knew which champions could benefit from it well. Any champion with a magic damage single target spell, like less conventional candidates such as Annie (Q), Rumble (E) and Viktor (Q). Morgana could use it to get massive spell vamp. She's now the only real mage-like champ that has sustain.

Like...Vladimir. The guy who should get the most reward out of it but instead you punish him for building as he should.

Why are AD characters allowed to itemize for sustain (with no fucking cap across PLENTY of items) when AP have, what... Catalyst? Wow, up to 25 health per cast. That's some seirous sustain, guys!

Arguably because it's constant vs burst, which allows for trade sustain to be easier to predict. Deaths Dance on Draven right now is BS though, won't lie.

SanKakU1 votes

So you don't think Draven should have something in his kit that makes Death's Dance less effective on him in particular? Because you just seemed sarcastic in replying about that Vlad thing.

Ralanr4 votes

No I think Deaths Dance should have it's fucking healing reduced. Because it wasn't dumb before.

Sasogwa12 votes

Spellvamp wasn't unhealthy and removed for this reason. It was a bad and unadapted stat because for mages that rely mostly on spells and not consistent damage output, spellvamp benefits a lot on some and is garbage on others, unlike lifesteal.

END OF STORY.

They didn't even remove spellvamp because it caused problems. It didn't. Wota wasn't overpowered. They just were bored with it.

ModJango Mage1 votes

spellvamp benefits a lot on some and is garbage on others, unlike lifesteal. Well lifesteal too has its intented users, who are more viable with it, they are mostly Marksmen who can porc it a lot with their DPS, but its way less viable on other AD champions since they are using less autoattacks and those are in msot cases for burst and not DPS.

Doozku2 votes

What mages other than vlad liked spell vamp. The most amount that you are going to get is 3, and even then it was a stretch. WOTA was only ever gotten on vlad. Nearly all Marksmen want life steal, as well as several bruisers and skirmishers.

ModJango Mage4 votes

Oh boy. Heres my reply to another comment.

[{quoted}](name=Jango Mage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BP1K1wAY,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-07-05T21:42:36.868+0000)

It was stronger on some champions and weaker on others but it defenetly not only worked on just a few champs. Heres a list of how many champions benefitted from it: Big Benefits: Akali Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Karthus Katarina Kennen Mordekaiser MorganaRumble RyzeSwain Vladimir Chogath Nunu Smaller Benefits: Ahri AurelionSol Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Kassadin Lissandra Nidalee SingedViktor So as we can see there were quite a few champs that could have used the spellvamp stat in some form. And since it gave good stats it could have been built on other champs as well for even smaller benefits from the passive.

Junkο7 votes

I'm sorry but what? That entire list is just bullshit.

Akali, Katarina, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Rumble and Vladimir are the only ones on your list that actually ever built a spellvamp item, and even then it wasn't because spellvamp was even a good stat.

Akali and Katarina got it because it was on an item with hybrid scalings that also had a burst active, they didn't really care about the spellvamp, Akali already had spell vamp as her passive and Katarina dealt mainly AoE damage so spellvamp wasn't even beneficial on her.

Kennen and Rumble got spellvamp because it was on the only AP item that gave a lot of CDR that didn't cost mana.

Mordekaiser and Vladimir got it to negate their health costs.Which in turn made them oppressive since their strengths were balanced around health costs.

Every other champion you listed is just complete bullshit. Nobody got WotA on Cass, Fiddle, Heimer, etc, you would have to be a moron to do that. Ryze already had CDR on his passive and Q passive, and already had a 100% uptime spellvamp ult, and built other items like FH and SV, building WotA would overcap CDR. And I'm not even gonna bother with other champions you mentioned, because if you seriously think Aurelion Sol or Singed or burst mages would use spell vamp then idk what to tell you.

deadlychuck2 votes

Crit is a boring stat, yet they keep it in.

I think they just don't know how to design mages anymore. They've been so biased for so long, they've just lot their ability to do so. There is a reason that the MYMU was a complete cluster fuck, of either not doing anything or poorly thought out changes, which they seemed to not even had play tested beyond exactly how they were intended to be played.

Tobias Brackner6 votes

Spellvamp was removed because it only worked on certain champs.

And they couldn't buff it to be legit on others because they have bonkers ranges and AoE hard CC.

softest boy5 votes

Death's Dance is only picked up by certain champions... it's literally the same exact case only AD.

Darkdemon6536 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jango Mage,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BP1K1wAY,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-05T18:35:51.062+0000)

So if Spellvamp was unhealthy

It wasn't.

Thilmer6 votes

"Life steal" is broken as hell and is causing all AP champs to be second class citizens, while "spellvamp" has disappeared from ítems but AD champions are getting it for God knows why.

Riot's bias in favor of AD champions has been ridiculous for many years, but is reaching even higher levels lately.

BarbaJhini2 votes

mid lane has been dominated by mages since lethality buffs, ap supports have been meta for ages adc were trash at the beginning of the season, this many years you are talking are more like 1 month

Thilmer2 votes

{quoted}

mid lane has been dominated by mages since lethality buffs, ap supports have been meta for ages adc were trash at the beginning of the season, this many years you are talking are more like 1 month

Bullshit. If you look at the variety and efectiveness of the ítems, we are talking about two or three years (and that been optimistic).

BarbaJhini1 votes

ap items are not bad lol item 3102 really good item that grants a spellshield and mr ( a lot better than previous abyssal scepter, also because tanks build abyssal mask adding up that passive 10% damage) item 3165 perfect item, gives everything needed CDR mana mana regen ap and greviou wounds. item 3303 recently got buffs, great passive added. Ap items have incredible variety, you can go for a more tanky build with item 3029 item 3116 item 3151, more a burst with item 3285 item 3089, item 3152 is also a gret item that gives a dash to help engage plus cdr hp and ofc ap, item 3146 completely broken giving a ton of damage sustain in lane with the spell vamp.item 3030 situational but great on some champs with that slow hp and sustain thanks to the passive. item 3135 is a lot better than item 3035 and it did not get nerfs with tanks defenses going up and hp down after mid season while LW did, pls. Moreover look the meta mid... malzahar ahri leblanc katarina tf anivia annie kassadin fizz orianna how many ad champs you see?

Thilmer1 votes

{quoted}

Moreover look the meta mid... malzahar ahri leblanc katarina tf anivia annie kassadin fizz orianna how many ad champs you see?

How many AD mids acually exists? [slayer-jinx-wink]

BarbaJhini2 votes

talon zed jayce gangplank yasuo quinn those that were op when lethality was good and mid was full of these guys.

A Basic Island5 votes

i honestly can't believe people still use the claim that vlad is why spellvamp was removed

these people just have no clue what they're talking about

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

It wasn't that spell vamp was unhealthy it was that it was far, far, extremely far, far better on a few champions and the majority of the cast couldn't utilize it because it had to be balanced for those few.

That issue isn't present in the AD lineup where Lifesteal already exists and is fairly evenly powerful on every champion as a consistent healing factor. Adding in a spell vamp option that acts as psuedo lifesteal on a mere 15% for those with either wide AoE or single target physical spells to utilize doesn't break the standard for any particular champion.

Unlike WotA's essentially Vladimir-only viability due to being balanced for him, Death's Dance isn't 300 times better on say Draven than it is on Caitlyn for example, they both get relatively similar gains from it and thus the item is both balanced and utilizable by the majority of the cast.

DaNinad4 votes

item 2140 : Gives you 15% of heals for physical damaging abilities

This is legit spellvamp.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Since noone yet touched on the multiple reasons unconditional, pure Spellvamp was removed from the item system:

  • First off, what does Spellvamp actually mean? You know that Spellvamp is giving you HP back based on the damage your abilities deal. But, on a more meta level, what does the stat actually do? Spellvamp, as it is based on abilities, converts your secondary resource (which is what you pay to cast abilities) into your primary resource. As such, the value of Spellvamp for champions is governed, for once, by the importance of secondary resource management for the champion in question. So, champions who are not long-term restricted by a secondary resource or who use their primary resource as their secondary resource are prime (ab-)users of the effect. Secondly, Spellvamp is featuring a differing degree of effectiveness based on the type of the ability: If it is classified as AoE, Spellvamp amounts are effectively reduced to a third. This opens a further distinction between champions interested in the stat - those who have a good, spammable single-target effect are benefitting much more from the stat than those who only have AoE effects. The combination of these points made it so a handful of champions were really synergizing super well with pure Spellvamp: Kennen Mordekaiser Vladimir
  • Ability-focused champions in general are the primary users of pure Spellvamp. However: Most mages do not particularily benefit from Spellvamp from midgame onwards due to their more alpha-strike nature (fire everything at once from full HP, retreat to wait for CDs). They could benefit from it in lane, to heal the damage they took in trades instead of having to back, but I already talked about the problem with the secondary resource (a problem Lifesteal doesn't have, btw, which is why it can become problematic in lane). Beyond mages, Spellvamp also has the potential to majorly break bruisers like Shyvana or Udyr , due to the combination of high base damages and tankiness to amplify the healing's effectiveness. Riot learned that with the first version of item 3104 .

These facets made Riot decide that ability-based sustain, for mages, should be something the respective mages kit should be specifically balanced around (and notice how quite a few of the pure spellvamp users in question were balanced - Cassiopeia Mordekaiser Vladimir

ModJango Mage2 votes

Thank your for your answer! You are the first one who gave me a solid detailed answer without puting your opinion in the text, supporting either the ap champions or the ad ones. I can agree with all of the things that you said, even tought you didnt touch the DD part of the thread. [slayer-jinx-catface]

ProfDrDeath5 votes

My view on Death's Dance:

Overall, both unique aspects of the item (damage delay and physical vamp) are acceptable for the game. However, its current balance state is simply that it is a tad underpriced (should be 3700 gold, same as the Bloodthirster it shares its AD value with) as well as overtuned (the damage delay part - rising it to 30% was probably overkill, as you require too much overkill now to immediately get rid of a target).

The physical Vamp is acceptable for the game for a few reasons:

  • First, it is only on a completed, expensive item - meaning, the vamp will only come into play at the tail end of a laning phase.
  • Second, few AD champions have spammable single-target abilities, anyway. Most of the time, if an AD champion has a spammable single-target ability, it applies on-hit effects and thus works with regular Lifesteal, anyways (Gangplank and Yasuo , for instance). Other single-target abilities (Pantheon , Urgot ) are restricted harshly by mana. And Pantheon's playstyle makes him prefer Lethality over Death's Dance, anyway. Of the manaless physical champions (Aatrox Garen Gnar Kled LeeSin RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Tryndamere Yasuo Zed ), only Lee Sin, Rek'Sai and Rengar have a basic ability that is single-target and does not apply on-hit effects. Same goes for most marksmen: Jayce, Jhin, Jinx, Kalista, Kindred and Quinn are the ones that have such a tool, but it is not a major damage tool for either of them save Kindred.
  • The physical vamp is essentially just an upgraded version of Lifesteal - and, as the paragraph above describes, most of the situations where the additional sustain from vamping from abilities is relevant were covered by Lifesteal before, anyway. Additionally, the AD champions that build Death's Dance, in general, are balanced around having access to in-combat sustain, courtesy of Lifesteal existing and being tied to strong AD items since League's very inception.

Most of the current issues with the item, imo, stem from the overtuning/underpricing combination I mentioned above. Fix that, and the item will be in an acceptable place.

Two more things:

Draven and item 3812 : Draven currently prefers this item over Bloodthirster, simply due to it being 200 gold cheaper and having the easier build path. The issue with it on him is not in the item itself, but how hard he spikes with AD, especially since they changed the axes to scale 105% with bonus AD. As such, Spinning Axe is essentially a reliable crit for Draven. Moreover, Draven LOVES early Lifesteal, as it makes him harder to kill (duh...) and thus protects his passive's stacks (duh!). So, early Lifesteal in combination with the damage delay and the high AD make the item really hard to pass upon for this champion.

Regarding AP sustain, Riot created an option with item 3010 . The attractive thing about the mana spent -> HP regen'd effect is that its efficiency is not gated by the enemy's resistances or you even hitting your spell. And it both builds into 2 good AP items and extends your secondary resource pool to boot. Unfortunately, the strength of item 3165 and its seemingly protected status as a first item buy for any AP (and one that solves all secondary resource woes) overshadows Catalyst's strength.

General Esdeath 3 votes

Riot logic

DRAGOON Burst3 votes

This issue is the epitome of Riot's hypocritical values.

"Let's remove AP spellvamp items because Vlad and Swain are too strong with it."

Then you have AD champs who lifesteal the shit out of enemies and minions, in which some of them just autoattacks. I would also like to mention a good number of items that has lifesteal/physical damagevamp, including those that have defensive stats.

ForeverLaxx3 votes

One of the main reasons I've started noticing some mage players here and there tossing a Gunblade into their build where Will of the Ancients would normally have been. AD get so many sources of "free" sustain but nonhybrid mages were left in the cold.

I haven't been shoehorning Gunblade into my builds yet, but I've thought about it more than once.

l Dárius l2 votes

deaths dance was healthy 6 months ago why are you bitching now

KyojiTakajo8 votes

Are you ignoring the fact that it got buffed a few patches ago?

Shahamut2 votes

Life steal: all auto attack damage (no on hit effects) regardless of type.

Spell Vamp: all ability damage (q,w,e,r) regardless of damage type. (No on spell effects)

Deaths Dance: ALL physical damage. Regardless of source.

Omi-vamp: ALL damage dealt. Regardless of source. (1/3 effective on AoE)

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Not to mention that there's a mastery that gives marksmen periodic lifesteal for free. When they already had the highest damage without restriction. At least mages had cooldowns and mana to limit them from constantly healing. Sure swain could be a draintank, but that was near full build at the end of the game; meanwhile about any marksmen can pick up a bloodthirster or death's dance first and do that since early game.

These double standards are what's killing strategic diversity.

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