Why "bloated" champions are good for game health

Mira Arya Enthe··103 votes·7,441 views

Ignoring bad releases like Camille. Champions like Jhin, Bard and new Fiora are far better designs than outdated champions like Garen, Annie and Mordekaiser.

See Linear champions aren't weak because of numbers.

They are weak because they are linear. They lack options, likewise when they do get ahead they lack counterplay. I find it amazing the number of people who complain about easy to use unavoidable damage on one champion but then complain about high skill cap champions with avoidable damage being the problem with League.

The reason Ahri for example can be balanced across most tiers with minimum number tuning is because while her kit is simple and powerful it also has options to be viable in high tier play and her CC and primary nuke is avoidable giving her counterplay. She takes some skill to play and a lot to master. But not too much to initially pick up. A similar case is Fiora. Both can be tuned by changing numbers without destroying them.

On the other side we have champions like Annie or Garen who due to only having 1-2 specific cheeses and their counterplay being "don't go near them when they have x stats" makes them too limited to see much top tier play without insane number buffs that would make them busted below a certain level. If you make them un-busted in those tiers they are worthless in high tier.

The good thing about champions having multiple complex/difficult mechanics, or kits with a lot of tools that include avoidable damage and counterplay. In low tiers people may not know how to play against them but playing as them is also more challenging and requires more thinking. Meaning it balances them out.

While playing in high tiers people may know how to play against them but also know how to play as them. Meaning it balances them out.

You can tune numbers without making them useless because their strategy isn't "have more numbers while being in X range". It is "Play better than you, outwit you and my number advantage is a slight boost because I farmed more."

This is why the Darius rework was mostly/entirely a success.

While the Garen and Mordekaiser reworks were hard failures.

I can now dodge Darius Q, play around his stacks, dodge his pull and still of course count our stats. But Darius players know this and account for it in their own play. That is successful design even if you consider him over/undertuned at any particular point.

And dare I forget probably the healthiest rework so far. Sion

176 Comments

Big Lincoln50 votes

you will never convince me that ekko is healthy.

there's some merit in complaining about a champion just getting to do more than you ever would on that champion, where they can juke and nuke all they like

Mira Arya Enthe40 votes

I have no particular opinion on Ekko. As long as Tank Ekko is kept down I really don't have many issues with him.

Big Lincoln9 votes

and what about champions like Karthus and Aurelion? they have simple enough kits that still manage to have counterplay (before rylai) but they can't keep up with a good chunk of new releases that focus on big outplays and easy dodges

Mira Arya Enthe16 votes

Aurelion was huge in Korean play until they gut him.

Karthus and Aurelion both suffer from "Stay in my range but don't touch me because I squish" mage disorder. Riot made squishy mages who also have to be near you to function. Karthus passive helps him a bit but overall they would need some slight changes to be viable.

Big Lincoln3 votes

Karthus only real problem is no sustain to stay alive

also can't do anything to prevent le skilled outplays, Asol at least can ult you off him

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Agreed. Karth use to be one of my favorite champions. But like Morde he suffers from slow-moving-damage disorder. Where that is all he offers. But I would need time to pinpoint an exact fix.

Big Lincoln5 votes

he's one of 3 mages I love dearly

I had an idea to make his wall a tether instead of a big slow, not a hard CC but more of "you can't move X distance away if the wall grabs you"

HellsTrueKing1 votes

What if the wall moved with him? You could lower the slow, that way it isn't so bad, but at least it would create a safer zone around him.

Big Lincoln4 votes

what if karthus became the wall?

A Violet Raven5 votes

Then Trump would put him on the border.

Over Innsmouth10 votes

I'd argue that they whole "Stay in my range but don't touch me because I squish" is just part of the risk/reward factor of playing those types of Champions. Squishy high-range mages have to rely on skillshots more, which creates opportunities for them to waste mana and cooldowns more easily than someone who relies on close-combat AoE sustained damage.

Besides, Karthus and Sol usually build at least a Catalyst item and are very fond of Zhonyas/Abyssal, so they're not as squishy as other mages.

vOmvbrawfU6 votes

I think Ekko is fine now. They just released him super OP so people would buy him and rito would make money. It's like that with pretty much every champion released.

paisy3 votes

Bard? Ivern? Jhin? Kled? Taliyah?

vOmvbrawfU5 votes

Taliyah was strong on release. They gutted her after. Ivern was also strong. I do not remember Jhin being weak either. Bard, yes. But that's why I said most.

paisy6 votes

They buffed Ivern in a hotfix, they buffed Taliyah too much then they nerfed her, Jhin also got buffs

Aptest6 votes

I thought about it a little bit, and my conclusion is this:

Ekko, Riven, Yasuo and Camille are basically variations on the same core design: multiple small dashes to control fights, shield for advantage in trades, some cc on low CD to control fights.

the biggest issue is that champions that are not designed around having this level of control over their opponents, and have different but also flexible advantages (for instance reksai or tahm kench who's fight pattern is pretty simple but is flexible in other ways) still need to not get demolished by "a good riven" (otherwise they can't play out their advantages).

this is not a simple challenge to solve.

50000000000000004 votes

Skirmishers by default have lower counterplay, tbh. If they become more even/fair to play against, they're simply worse than most of the roster.

AmazoX1 votes

Camille is classified as Diver by Riot Games. IMO she is definitely a skirmisher with strong base stats.

Atanchan2 votes

As a quick reminder, most champions aren't designed to fit within a single class, but primarily in one, with strong touches of another, and maybe some hints of some others.

Hence the whole x class / y class notation that's applied to most champions - none of the classes are meant to be exclusive to the other, as even stuff like vanguard / marksman can exist ( see: Gnar ).

IceKingChernobog3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BIOoiqNp,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-31T17:52:05.873+0000)

you will never convince me that ekko is healthy.

there's some merit in complaining about a champion just getting to do more than you ever would on that champion, where they can juke and nuke all they like

Same goes for Kalista

SweedishGunner21 votes

Fiora is still kinda disgusting if she makes it late or gets any scent of a lead.

Mecha MaIphite18 votes

Remember old Fiora? It was even more disgusting, because there wasn't any real counterplay.

ARequestOfDeath1 votes
YumaS2Astral3 votes

You didn't needed attack speed on old Fiora. You could just stack massive amounts of AD and armor penetration to deal massive damage with her ult. However, a build I would do on her most of time was Youmuu + Infinity Edge. Back then, Youmuu used to offer crit. With crit combined with her ult, squishies were simply dead.

Touch My Box11 votes

Not sure how you view Shaco..But whether it is due to my experience on him, or that he just has a good kit..

He is one of the few champions that I feel I can win nearly any 1v1 on if I play correctly, or to put it better.. I feel like I always have a chance.

When I win it isn't because I have stupid CC chains or stupidly high damage and scaling, it is because you were outplayed. If I die, it isn't because the enemy is so broken, it is because I miscalculated or misplayed.

I don't feel that way in a lot of matchups, especially against newer champs. Yasuo can get caught out, but nope, Windwall for muh skillcaps and laugh at his newfound immunity. Lee sin missed his Q, ward hops into your face and beats you silly.

I often feel like no matter what I do, the advantage will always be in their favor, like they have to misplay badly to lose the fight.

As for Camile, am I the only person who doesn't think she is a problem? I don't really play top, but she seems like your regular run of the mill top laner. No real gimmick, just sit and punch you to death kinda deal. With all her true damage, and gap closes and shields I still find that I FEEL like I can beat her if I outplay it, she doesn't have a bullshit saving grace like wind-wall.

EDIT:

As for Fiora-like champs being healthy... I really don't know.

Her whole schtick is "I dance around you popping vitals, big damages" but when I see Fiora in game she just seems to bash my face in like any other top laner.. I barely see them go for vitals and even when they do it only makes me die half a second faster than if she didn't.

I kind of prefer linear champs in all honesty.. I think they are more healthy than the fancy high skillcap champs because the issue with the fancy ones isn't the cap, its the floor. They have this strong theme that suits their playstyle, but even when they don't use it they can dominate. Look at pre-rework LeBlanc. Had this incredible kit, with great mobility and kite and burst and juke power.. but you didn't need to use all her tools to maximum potential to succeed, you just had to QRW to kill someone, and they couldn't retaliate because it silenced.

Champs with high skillcaps are silly because they seem to fall into two categories, that I think are both unhealthy. A. You have to be incredibly skilled on said champion to be effective, and to reward your skill you are very strong. Yasuo to an extent... hence why most of them feed, but the good ones scare everyone into banning him. B. They are average without the skilled plays, and incredibly and overly powerful in the right hands. I'd say Riven, Vayne or Lee fall into this category. Any schmuck can Tumble into stealth and take half their targets health and then return to the shadows.

Hinagiku334 votes

This is one of the issues I have with some of the "High Skill Cap/Floor" champs like Yasuo.

Yes, he takes skill to play. Yes, a bad Yasuo will die a lot and be useless. But a good Yasuo will murder your entire team.

Having 0 chance to win because the enemy can stat-check you without counter-play is no different than having 0 chance to win because the enemy can outplay their only counter-play.

Rouwhorst2 votes

Not sure how you view Shaco..But whether it is due to my experience on him, or that he just has a good kit..

He is one of the few champions that I feel I can win nearly any 1v1 on if I play correctly, or to put it better.. I feel like I always have a chance.

When I win it isn't because I have stupid CC chains or stupidly high damage and scaling, it is because you were outplayed. If I die, it isn't because the enemy is so broken, it is because I miscalculated or misplayed.

This could have something to do with initiative(Q). YOU decide when to engage and therefore, when you die, that means you made a bad decision. If the enemy is too strong, you just stand back, or walk away with stealth. Of course you only engage when you feel you have a chance. When you get encountered or even ambushed, you just Q away, you need not fight.

Shaco has high damage, Shaco has cc and Shaco has good scalings. I find little outplay in a Shaco coming from stealth, without anything decent to counter the result of it.

I think any champion as mobile/slippery as Shaco will have some of the feeling you have a chance 1v1.


In my opinion the skill-cap gap between champions is what makes high skill-cap champions problematic. You get champions that are

  • Stronger/better when played well; average when played average
  • Stronger/better when played well; below average when played average
  • As strong/good when played well; below average when played average

in comparison with low skill-cap champions.

In the first case the champion will ultimately be played very well, giving them more strength over low skill-cap champions. In the second case has the same problems as the first with being stronger than other champions just because the high skill-cap, here however the skill-floor is higher. In the third case there is no real reward for being very skilled with such champion, except for being able to play that champion.

If all champions have a similar skill cap then there would not be a problem. I think the last case is the least problematic. The skill floor is high, the champion actually requires to be played (very) well, this maywill scare somemany people off. The champion however does not cause real issues with low skill-cap champions.

Very Hard Engage9 votes

there is extremely little counterplay from the high skill cap champs. you are left to initiate onto them first, or they will "outplay you".

its not a question of champion balance, its straight function and utility that they have too much of or its too good and it wont ever be rightfully gutted because its 'fun"

Veigar VEIGAR a prime example.

pre 5.4 he was a balanced short range mininuke.

he was only considered for his gutting because he was being taken bot lane as a support for his flash E engage.

but had he been a mid laner it would have been perfectly acceptable in riots eye.

had a 47% win rate before the rework, as a high risk high reward champ, was dumpstered to 37% for a full month "see how it plays out people are still getting used to it"

take Zed as another example. at no point in time has he ever lost a lane without playing so poorly or camped in an unwinnable 2v1 situation, its his lane to lose, you can avoid him, but in the end your life is his to take, not the other way around.

"bloated" champions are what ruin decision making and team comp and make it revolve around raw stats, you either have ____ or you die and lose the game. that is unfun.

have you ever played in a karthus vs assassin matchup before?


look at viktor vs kat mid lane. kat is free to gap close onto you at any point and vik can place his W down whenever and still lose the fight exclusively because kat reached his face and he died instantly.

its the same thing about annie, the only saving grace is she has no mobility and cant be everywhere at once.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

{quoted}

there is extremely little counterplay from the high skill cap champs. you are left to initiate onto them first, or they will "outplay you".

its not a question of champion balance, its straight function and utility that they have too much of or its too good and it wont ever be rightfully gutted because its 'fun"

Veigar VEIGAR a prime example.

pre 5.4 he was a balanced short range mininuke.

he was only considered for his gutting because he was being taken bot lane as a support for his flash E engage.

but had he been a mid laner it would have been perfectly acceptable in riots eye.

had a 47% win rate before the rework, as a high risk high reward champ, was dumpstered to 37% for a full month "see how it plays out people are still getting used to it"

take Zed as another example. at no point in time has he ever lost a lane without playing so poorly or camped in an unwinnable 2v1 situation, its his lane to lose, you can avoid him, but in the end your life is his to take, not the other way around.

"bloated" champions are what ruin decision making and team comp and make it revolve around raw stats, you either have ____ or you die and lose the game. that is unfun.

have you ever played in a karthus vs assassin matchup before?


look at viktor vs kat mid lane. kat is free to gap close onto you at any point and vik can place his W down whenever and still lose the fight exclusively because kat reached his face and he died instantly.

its the same thing about annie, the only saving grace is she has no mobility and cant be everywhere at once.

one of the most shit loaded responses I've seen on these boards in years

TyrekGoldenspear9 votes

Hmm.

In that case does this make Gragas the healthiest Champ? He's certainly bloated.

More seriously, I hate to be that guy, but I don't see how Camille is a failed release. She was overtuned on release, but she is also telegraphed with counterplay.

If you notice she has free riegn against those 5 carry teams.

Properly built teams can handle her fine.

Mira Arya Enthe13 votes

More specifically because I am a politician of sorts. I knew if I didn't say some were bad releases all the comments would essentially be.

"Camille. Nuff said" Or "Yasuo. Nuff said"

It is more important I get across the general point across than spend all day defending/attacking every individual champion. Because when people find themselves unable to argue a point on a conceptual level they try to attack the person making the point or cherry pick to find the one argument they feel they can win in the public eyes.

For example you will notice I did not mention Riven in this post. Attack her and your thread sinks due to her popularity and her seeming fairness in some levels of play. Defend her and every tilted player that dislikes melee carries will sink your thread.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Well that's true. No worries, I'll do my best and defend these champs for you.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

I can defend many champs on other posts. But good work to you as well. This post had a specific goal. I wanted to keep focused on it.

Hyperiön2 votes

Tbh, I think Riven is in a way balanced around the fact that in order for her to be successful, you have to know how to actually do her combo.

Not just spam Q 3 times and hope for the best. You have to animation cancel, CC cancel for her to actually work in high tier (Plat plus).

Where as in gold and below, most people can pick up riven for a few games and take her to ranked. She probably has the highest skill cap in the game along with azir maybe.

That is why you only see dedicated riven mains in high tier, because you can't just pick her up because you want to play her.

Anidan2 votes

typical boards member: something something skill cap isn't an excuse, just look at Azir.

Y'know, think about that other champion, who had a completely different context. Because yes, I have seen people compare Riven's skill cap to Azir, and then also justify Riven nerfs by using Azir, completely disregarding the difference in what the two can do at that level of skill.

WoonStruck3 votes

Riven has never, ever relied on CC canceling to work.

Even boxbox/adrian didn't try to because its far too inconsistent and will get you killed more often than not.

Teridax688 votes

Both the title and the fact that you have already posted this same thread many, many, many times before kinda rub me the wrong way, but at least this time I can agree more with the actual contents, in part because your argument's more nuanced. The issue I had with your previous threads is that they didn't really make a distinction between more loaded kits that are genuinely healthy, e.g. Darius, Jhin, Sion, etc., and kits that are truly overloaded and suffer because of it, e.g. Azir, Kalista or Yasuo: it ended up looking like you truly thought loading a kit always led to a healthier, more easily balanceable champion, a mistake Riot themselves fell into when they released Camille and that extremely short-sighted dev blog right afterwards. It's good to know that that's not the case.

Personally, I think the real subject behind this isn't one of complexity, but of depth: whenever you release a new champion, you want to maximize their contribution in depth, i.e. meaningful choices that they bring to the entire game. If you're lucky and/or have the time, resources and experience, you can end up with a champion like Lux, Morgana or new Warwick, who bring tremendous amounts of gameplay with only a relatively small burden of knowledge (i.e. complexity), but more often than not, you're going to have to layer on additional choices through extra mechanics, which leads to slightly more loaded designs like Gnar, Jinx or new Miss Fortune. You don't get depth just by piling on more complexity, but more often than not you're going to have to pay for greater depth with an additional complexity cost.

Where things go wrong is when champions are designed with improper depth: the issue with overly simplistic champions like Garen, Annie, Xin Zhao, etc. is that they have an insufficient amount of meaningful choices, and therefore lack real depth. Mordekaiser is a particular case, because his kit is actually quite loaded (just look at all the different effects and conditionals tacked on, and the small novel's worth of his W and R ability descriptions), yet still only delivers an extremely linear, binary experience with the champion. Garen himself has had his kit bloated with a ton of additional effects since the Juggernaut update, yet is still boring, unhealthy and difficult to balance, so it really is a matter of poorly applied complexity failing to give a champion depth.

The common issue with truly overloaded champions, though, is that they often provide the impression of giving a lot of choices, but those choices turn out to be less meaningful than they seem, and tend to come at a cost to their opponents' agency, thereby providing insufficient depth for their total complexity and, at times, even making the game less deep overall. Champions like Jayce or Nidalee tend to have so many options at their disposal that they essentially have an answer to every situation: not only are their choices not all that meaningful, since they don't really carry much of a cost or sacrifice, but they don't really bring depth to the game as a whole, because they tend to make their opponents' choices less meaningful as well (everything they do runs the risk of getting at least somewhat countered). A common complaint against those champions is that they make their opponent feel like they have no agency, as has been the case with Camille, and that's entirely justified: when a "simple" champion is too strong, they can still get surpassed by other, weaker champions who can exploit the gaps in their kits, and so don't usually take the game over completely; when an overloaded champion is too strong, their lack of hard weaknesses means they can effectively counter everyone, which makes them distort entire games around them until they get nerfed. At that point, it's really hard to balance an overloaded champion, because the developers leave themselves with only a small amount of weaknesses they can enhance on them, and can't easily strip off strengths or mechanics players have gotten attached to (i.e. the main reason why Lee Sin hasn't gotten a rework).

Basically, the average relation between depth and complexity is likely more of a bell curve than just an upward slope: you definitely want your champion to do more than Annie or Xin Zhao, but you also don't want to go full Azir or Kalista and create a potentially game-warping nightmare. Camille may not be as bad as the latter two, but it's clear that she does too much, and isn't as healthy as she could be because of that. Garen and Morde are also proof that you can't just pile on more mechanics and expect your champion to be more interesting by default, so it's also a matter of trying to extract as much depth as you can out of every effect you have, something champions like Bard and Jhin do extremely well.

Yaskamasandwich5 votes

Hey Mira I get your crusade against linear champions. I wasn't there for release Xin or Udyr with that weird tenacity item. I was there for 5.16 Garen, and it was dumb to the point of "whomever has Garen wins." Linear champions need to be on a leash and Poppyed to properly be balanced until reworked or very fine tuned like Warwick just now.

HOWEVER that does not excuse to release champions like Ekko, Yasuo, Camille and perhaps many others. It's not fun to fight a linear champion and lose due to numbers. It's also not fun to fight against a champion who is so overloaded in general, as you feel that you have no say or control.

As the perfect example, when I win as Sion or lose to one, I feel awesome! I win due to skill or lost due to being out played by a well deserved skillful player. When I win or lose against those bloated champions I don't feel great. I won because the person playing that champion isn't attuned to the champion yet. If that player is attuned then there is little to nothing I feel like I can do. They hold all the keys and they hold all the locks. Even if I do have a way, the pure crushing feeling of helplessness alone is too much, especially in lonely top lane island.

So yes linear champions are bad, very bad you can say, but that is no excuse for champions like Yasuo, Camille, and Ekko to be released. Yes Ekko is probably balanced now, have not seen one in forever though so can't say. It did however took too long to balance him, all because it was hard because of his overloaded kit.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Hello. Yes. Thank you for your well thought out rely. And I agree thus why my post started with the immediate disclaimer "ignoring bad releases".

Because while bloated champions can be poorly designed. Linear champions are poor designs by nature.

Anidan5 votes

I think the issue is more or less that this game is still in its transitional phase to get away from its roots as being a DotA follow-up but "without the BS." The problem being that they kept some of what they would've called BS but none of its counters (point-and-click rapid burst, but without items like Eul's Scepter, Pipe of Insight, BKB, and some of the spells available to heroes to counter burst). So now everyone has to wait until League finally takes the rest of its champions to the game's niche identity to complete its separation from DotA.

Linear designs are perfectly, 100% fine - not poorly designed by nature... as long as you implement proper counters, which League did not, while DotA has.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Except bloated champions have ALWAYS been balance issues. Unless they're nerfed to the point that all of their possible strengths are just mediocre then they will always be picked and always be a balance issue. Can you give an example of a bloated champion that WASN'T an issue on release (Aside from release Azir since that was just because he was more buggy than the Temple of Doom)?

SlaktarTasken1 votes

{quoted}

Hey Mira I get your crusade against linear champions. I wasn't there for release Xin or Udyr with that weird tenacity item. I was there for 5.16 Garen, and it was dumb to the point of "whomever has Garen wins." Linear champions need to be on a leash and Poppyed to properly be balanced until reworked or very fine tuned like Warwick just now.

HOWEVER that does not excuse to release champions like Ekko, Yasuo, Camille and perhaps many others. It's not fun to fight a linear champion and lose due to numbers. It's also not fun to fight against a champion who is so overloaded in general, as you feel that you have no say or control.

As the perfect example, when I win as Sion or lose to one, I feel awesome! I win due to skill or lost due to being out played by a well deserved skillful player. When I win or lose against those bloated champions I don't feel great. I won because the person playing that champion isn't attuned to the champion yet. If that player is attuned then there is little to nothing I feel like I can do. They hold all the keys and they hold all the locks. Even if I do have a way, the pure crushing feeling of helplessness alone is too much, especially in lonely top lane island.

So yes linear champions are bad, very bad you can say, but that is no excuse for champions like Yasuo, Camille, and Ekko to be released. Yes Ekko is probably balanced now, have not seen one in forever though so can't say. It did however took too long to balance him, all because it was hard because of his overloaded kit.

Balanced or not Ekko is still cancer. There is nothing inherently fun in playing against him, ever. He still decides when and where-ever the fight will take place, making you reliant on mistakes on his part to even make a play.

He still has the tools to bail out of just about any situation and if whoever playing him is really good with him, you still have no chance since his design demands he makes mistakes to be beaten and even then it's something that's incredibly hard to do with any semi-binary champ that doesn't have those tools available. That's what happens when you give a champion practically everything, bad winrates or not.

And yes Camille and Yasuo are also cancer from a design standpoint, regardless of state of balance and will never be an enjoyable experience playing against, just as you stated, either they are good and deny you from playing at all or they are not and you faceroll them with superior stats.

Sion is just about the only semi-complex to complex champion I've seen released that doesn't ever make me feel like rippin my hair out. He is truely the epitome of a complex champion that has to make trades depending on how he uses his skills, if he let's his Q wind up to about 85% of the way, he get's his aoe knockup, otherwise it's a slow and it's damage is based on it's windup time (can it get more outplayable than that?), he can use his ult at point blank for instant aoe knockup, but then trades just about all it's damage for that knockup (again making it tradeoffs based on desitions).

That's the problem with the other champions with more complex kits, they never have to make sacrifices, their skills will always have full impact no matter when and how they use them unless they just fully fuck up which is utterly fucking bonkers considering they generally have strong mobility even outside of their ults, much unlike Sion.

So I don't agree at all with OP, he/she is completely worng and there is nothing inherently healthy about bloated champions, the only way a bloated champion can be healthy is if they don't get to keep the perk of more binary champions, which is always having full impact on skills that hit, since they generally have superior tools making it easier for them to actually hit their skill(shots) in the first place.

Touch My Box2 votes

{quoted}

Balanced or not Ekko is still cancer. There is nothing inherently fun in playing against him, ever. He still decides when and where-ever the fight will take place, making you reliant on mistakes on his part to even make a play.

He still has the tools to bail out of just about any situation and if whoever playing him is really good with him, you still have no chance since his design demands he makes mistakes to be beaten and even then it's something that's incredibly hard to do with any semi-binary champ that doesn't have those tools available. That's what happens when you give a champion practically everything, bad winrates or not.

Not just Ekko, I think Riven falls into that category as well.

I fully agree though, that champs who pick where and when to fight are stupid.. the only way you win is when they make mistakes.

General Esdeath 4 votes

New Fiora is absolute cancer on this game

Orangesilk3 votes

People hate making an effort, it's easy to blame Garen for being overtuned, but it's hard to blame yourself when you keep eating rupture after rupture from Cho.

They'd rather hate Cho than make the effort to dodge. This is why Cho, despite being one of the weakest champions in the game, and having the most counterplay on the game, is hated on these boards. By your logic though, Cho is fantastic champion design despite being very old, since he has so many ways to be counterplayed.

BluePolarizer3 votes

League is not a fighting game, you do not need to be able to duel any other given champion on any champion to win the game. You will never convince me that Annie or Garen are stronger than Camille, Lee Sin or Vayne.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Nobody said they were stronger. I said they were unhealthy.

But why would anybody try to discuss anything with you? You closed out your own mind the moment you said...

You will never convince me

Smitty Manjensen2 votes

Tell me how is Darius healthier than Garen? And how in the world can he have more counterplay than Garen? Of course Garen is binary and simple, but with all the dashes and gimmicks the game does need simple champs. I personally can't wait until they remove all targeted spells/cc so then Yasuos and other mobile scum can rule the game. Also how didn't you mention Shyvanna? She literally just runs after people and aas them to death, also initiates with her ult occasionally.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Shyvana does have this problem. I didn't bring her up because I have had about 3 people tell me to stop talking about her so much.

Darius of all Juggernauts has dodgeable damage, options for how he engages, mechanics to play around and tools to help his team. More so than people who's gameplay consists of 'walk at you and overwhelm you with stats'.

Xela Syab2 votes

Idk some of Riots reworks leave a bad taste in my mouth. Taric Shen Karma Taric does require skill and timing to use effectively but I really miss the damage lost in his kit and his debuff. Plus I feel like he needs better indicators of who is being effected by his heal and ult (just make it more colorful like Sona). Shen has a really weird mechanics now and isn't effective as a bot lane support anymore. He's just a top lane tank now and I never see anyone jungle with him. I just wish his Vorpal Blade was like Orianna's ball where I don't have to use energy to reposition it. I've gotten used to Karma now, but I still miss her fans and high risk/reward playstyle now she's just a 1 trick spam depending upon what lane she's in. Miss everything about her old kit, the damage, the healing, the ms buff to allies.

Zilean Soraka Alistar are the only support reworks I feel made them better thematically and didn't completely change the champion.
I get worried about them reworking Janna Lulu Morgana Lux Kayle Sona even though I think many of them deserve reworks to diversify them besides just sheild/heal spam supports (and for Kayle to actually function as a support again).

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