@Riot Meddler: Why do you guys think every ability needs counterplay?

Du Ma Mi··4 votes·491 views

Okay, yes I agree - some abilities are just frustrating, and if they had no counterplay (or have none) it makes them that much worse.

But that doesn't mean you need to get rid of Point-and-click spells entirely, or add some weird mechanic to them to make sure that they work. All this does is allow them to be that much more powerful, since players are forced to try to make plays to get them off.

An example is TahmKench's W. This is by far one of the most frustrating abilities in the game, and it DOES offer counterplay - don't get Auto'd 3 times. But because you guys put that specific mechanic into him, it allowed for his damage+utility to be even better solely due to the fact that the reward has to be worth waiting around for 3 auto's.

This also comes to mind thinking about Vladimir's Q; I see so many people that say "This ability is the most cancerous ability in the game," and other such claims. Honestly, I've not once been playing against a Vlad and thought "That ability should be harder to use". It's a simple spell, that does damage+heals. It's a good ability (in terms of damage+utility for Vlad), which helps to make him a good champion.

I'm not positive (since I haven't played a whole lot of the new champions), but I don't know if there was even one point-and-click, no-passive, simple little ability given to any of the recently created champions. I understand that you, and your team want to create unique ideas to increase the enjoyment of the game, but I don't think the right call is to shove mechanics that force "counterplay" down our throats.

TL;DR : Counterplay is something that should exist for a champions KIT, not for every single ability, or League just becomes a game of "Who can click their buttons faster".

EDIT: As I reread this, I realized I forgot to really ASK for anything - making it really hard to ANSWER. I guess the main point was in the Vlad section - I've been informed that somewhere Riot has stated that they will likely be adding more counterplay to Vlad's kit, which I was a tad concerned about, which lead to a rant. So if you could enlighten me on that it would be really appreciated.

Also, the thought process behind why point-and-click is a dying art would be interesting.

12 Comments

CorruptFate7 votes

It's not that every ability needs counter play, but that every kit needs it. Some skills or champions are about bring reliability (think Annie's Q). If you remove this reliability you can have more power or expression of skill for that ability. The simplest example of this is that a targeted spell will hit 100% of the time, but if the champion is in the fog of war you can't hit them, but with a skill shot you can aim for a target who just win into the fog and still hit them. It feels great doing this, and increases what you can do with this ability.

Du Ma Mi2 votes

I agree, which is what I'm saying about Vlad - his Q doesn't NEED counterplay, he is actually one of the more balanced champions in terms of being able to counter what he's doing.

Lord Dusteon3 votes

{quoted}

I agree, which is what I'm saying about Vlad - his Q doesn't NEED counterplay, he is actually one of the more balanced champions in terms of being able to counter what he's doing.

The problem is current Vladimir's Q is a point and click that does decent damage, heals him, and gets a low cooldown rather quickly. It's a horrible design that means to win you either need the outright damage to kill Vlad or the outright sustain to outsustain him. The first is hard because of Vlad's W, and the second is hard because of Vlad already having high sustain and usually rushing a spellvamp item to be constantly full health.

So while his Q might remain low on the counterplay area, the rest of his kit will need some changes so he isn't as badly designed.

{quoted}

Our main problem with Vlad is his Q. It's a low CD, targeted, resourceless spell that restores health. It doesn't have much interesting decision making for Vlad, if it's ever strong early he just shuts a lot of people out of lane and the main ways to deal with it are to either sustain even more or to punish Vlad really hard when he trades.

Vlad's also got a bit of a 'stat check' issue, where he'll just reliably outclick a lot of opponents 1v1 without sufficient avenues for being outplayed. That's not ideal, it's a lesser issue though since it doesn't kick in until later in the game when 1 v 1 counterplay is less important than team v team counterplay.

Du Ma Mi1 votes

I couldn't agree more, which brings me back to my point: his Q doesn't need ability-specific counterplay, so long as his kit has counterplay.

I suppose, you're right, at the moment his counterplay is more "all in him when his W is on CD, harass when his Q is on CD". Not much to it, which doesn't make the lane very fun.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to them changing his E to a more decision-heavy tool, and possibly make it better so it isn't useless 90% of the time. In making it a little better/harder to get off, they could also take some of his power budget out of his Q, and make it more of a sustain device than a "I'll Nuke you and Soraka-Heal myself just because I felt like it."

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

I couldn't agree more, which brings me back to my point: his Q doesn't need ability-specific counterplay, so long as his kit has counterplay.

I suppose, you're right, at the moment his counterplay is more "all in him when his W is on CD, harass when his Q is on CD". Not much to it, which doesn't make the lane very fun.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to them changing his E to a more decision-heavy tool, and possibly make it better so it isn't useless 90% of the time. In making it a little better/harder to get off, they could also take some of his power budget out of his Q, and make it more of a sustain device than a "I'll Nuke you and Soraka-Heal myself just because I felt like it."

All they need to do is force him to use E more early game. This will make Vlad a riskier pick and prevent his harass from giving him too much of a health advantage early on.

If you make it so he needs to use E more, he pushes waves, loses health, and risks getting engaged on or ganked as such.

Another option is moving the heal ratio to scale on W rank, remove the flat heal. Boom. Laning against him isn't a struggle anymore.

Add a decaying MS buff to the Q particle to mitigate his spammed animation delays, boom, he can compete with the roster mid-late game without being fed now.

All that's left now is making E less reliable in a way that makes it effectively function the same, such as instead of stacking buff on Vlad, it stacks debuffs on enemies. This could allow him to benefit teammates as well for sustain, or simply allow Vlad to sustain more off of targets with stacks. While the first sounds cool, the second is more likely, and introduces a power curve in fights since it would likely stack past 4, since he can't constantly keep them up like currently.

Du Ma Mi1 votes

I love it. I just love this.

Wolfess4 votes

people say vlad Q is toxic, but remember that champs that use their own hp as a resource need to have a mechanic that allows them to receive surviveability as compensation. morde gets a shield when he hits things as compensation mundo has his ult and naturally strong hp regen that scales with his hp, plus after an update a bit back, his cleavers now refund hp on kills zac can pick up his blobs after using an ability to restore a % of his max hp for each blob. vlad has his Q to help sustain his hp through laning and helps last-hit as well. The heal isn't even a % hp like mundo or zac and is a bit weak early game

Du Ma Mi2 votes

That's what I said - a lot of people think that his Q is toxic, but it isn't.

Solidair33 votes

This isn't even Riot's stance, let alone Meddler's. Champions need counterplay, specific skills do not. This is why Annie is allowed to have an aoe stun in her kit. It's why Ryze can keep his Rune Prison. It's why Veigar can blow you up with the touch of a key. When everything comes together in a champions skillset, there needs to be both reliability and unreliability.

Du Ma Mi2 votes

But in a lot of their answers to "What are you doing to this champion", and "Why's this on the new champion" it's all about counterplay. I want a new champion like Warwick, or Annie, where it's more reliability than ability sequences.

Kei1431 votes

{quoted}

An example is TahmKench's W. This is by far one of the most frustrating abilities in the game, and it DOES offer counterplay - don't get Auto'd 3 times. But because you guys put that specific mechanic into him, it allowed for his damage+utility to be even better solely due to the fact that the reward has to be worth waiting around for 3 auto's.

You would think that Morgana 's black shield would be a good counter against him, but NOPE!!

Untargettable enemies don't put the devourer skill on Cooldown. Probably coded for the purpose of him not eat large jungle monsters and putting it on cool down.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

You would think that Morgana 's black shield would be a good counter against him, but NOPE!!

Untargettable enemies don't put the devourer skill on Cooldown. Probably coded for the purpose of him not eat large jungle monsters and putting it on cool down.

They're fixing that in the patch tomorrow, thankfully.

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