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There's actually 4 real problems with MF, in all honesty

chipndip1··69 votes·4,431 views

  1. Double-Up needs to cast faster as you build attack speed. It's only fair, Riot. The cast is fine during laning, but after a Phantom Dancer, you have almost no reason to touch Q anymore. Make it cast faster so we can actually animation cancel with it properly. It's basically another auto anyway.

  2. Impure Shots takes too long to have a noticeable effect. Vayne gets %MAX HEALTH TRUE DAMAGE in only 3 shots. MF has to steadily stack Impure Shots as it climbs from 10 magic dmg...to 20...to 30...and so on. Takes way too long to only add a meh amount of extra damage, and we ALL know that the ins-and-outs of team fighting won't let us be for that long. There needs to be more umph in this passive.

  3. Activating W should allow her passive to stay on for a least a few seconds...I'm personally thinking 2 seconds. I always say "minions should deactivate Strut. It's basically mobis anyway". However, if she's gonna use W to get away or chase while her only other option is only a slow, a random caster's signature move shouldn't deactivate it immediately after using it. It's unsatisfying and immediately has the reverse effect of what Riot was aiming for. Otherwise, the W change was perfect.

  4. Her ult is fking garbage. The idea around the champ is that MF is a run-n-gun sort of champ. Her ult, however, keeps her in one position and hardly does shit outside of picking off people when they're at 200 health...maybe. It just doesn't feel like an ultimate move, nor does it have the impact of one. This is partially due to her Impure Shots passive being so...lousy, seeing how it's supposed to synergize with it by adding and applying stacks while you shoot, but since you probably don't have any stacks applied, you aren't getting much bonus damage.

Short story: MF is...relatively fine, in all honesty. The implementation of her kit is out of whack, though. Her ult is straight stupid, her Q needs to scale with attack speed, and her Impure Shots, in all honesty, is out-dated now that most champs use the 3 stack rule, rather than indefinitely adding bits of debuff onto people (like, seriously...8 stacks? The fk?). Maybe she needs a new ult, which would require a rework, but if Riot wanted to, it wouldn't be too hard to fix up MF to be a satisfying champ selection. Perhaps they're already cooking something up for her and a few other adcs for the adc rework after worlds?

55 Comments

Ramza Paradise29 votes

W Strut activate definitely needs a Teemo-esque "safe" window of 2-3 seconds. It's pretty stupid to activate it then imminently lose it. I know you compared the magic damage to Vayne, but the main difference is MF gets free attack speed as well, not saying it shouldn't potentially ramp up faster.

E needs to cost less mana. It just feels like a complete waste most of the time. I actually just hate this skill as a whole regardless.

Lowering her Ult cooldown seems necessary. Should be something around 80/70/60, not 100+.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

W Strut activate definitely needs a Teemo-esque "safe" window of 2-3 seconds. It's pretty stupid to activate it then imminently lose it. I know you compared the magic damage to Vayne, but the main difference is MF gets free attack speed as well, not saying it shouldn't potentially ramp up faster.

E needs to cost less mana. It just feels like a complete waste most of the time. I actually just hate this skill as a whole regardless.

Lowering her Ult cooldown seems necessary. Should be something around 80/70/60, not 100+.

Vayne has THREE ad steroids. One attack speed steroid isn't really saying much, especially when she has no dashes/blinks/whatever and the standard 550 range while ALSO having very little in the form of pokes. Her W deserves to have a more immediate effect on damage dealing.

LankPants3 votes

Vayne has THREE ad steroids.

By the definition of a steroid she has one. Q is a reset and W is an on hit.

MistaMac3 votes

Q also boost her next aa damage so it's somewhat ad steroid

LankPants3 votes

If it was a steroid it would boost her AD rather than upping her next AAs damage meaning it would also up her E damage. It's not really a steroid any more than MF's Q is.

Ariel the Cruel17 votes

Braum MF has Yasuo an ult?

A Superb Villain3 votes

I see you are living up to your name.

I approve.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Well a villain WOULD approve of that...

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BB7Rlgnu,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-09-07T23:25:43.658+0000)

Braum MF has Yasuo an ult?

I ask that question and it doesn't matter who the enemy is. -_-

Centuros16 votes

Her ult feels like they really wanted it to be what The Culling actually is, but it was made before they had the means to do that.

stealthfox945 votes

True if you think about it the goal of Miss Fortune as a run and gun ADC. Doesn't that sound like Lucian.

ShadowParker1 votes

Nah, when I think Lucian I think of a spell slinger.

Ikrit1229 votes

Her original design was to be a mid-laner (back before the duo bot meta) who can roam (her passive) and gank (her E's slow and the range of her ult), while providing AoE damage in teamfights (her Q, E, and R). Obviously, the meta changed, while MF's kit did not.

  1. Double Up is designed to make MF a lane bully. When they changed her Q, they added the "crit" on the second shot for this reason (You kill a minion and get bonus damage on your opponent). It is annoying to predict where it will go, as it sometimes seems random. However, late-game, you are very correct. The first hit is pretty much worse than a crit with full build.

  2. Impure Shots is now supposed to synergize with her ult now. The idea is that you ult, hit your opponents with 6-8 waves, and auto with max stacks (36-48% AD for 6-8 stacks). Her ult is a completely different issue though.

  3. I've found her W Strut to be useful when she is running through the jungle, or running from a lane, but that's it. Strut is supposed to give her mobility between lanes, but with the change to W showing that that is not entirely the intended effect anymore, they really should give her a small window of safety from minions.

  4. Her ult sounds like it should do lots of damage (at max rank, 1000 total physical damage with 384% AD magic damage from Impure Shots (at 8 stacks from the start)), but it makes her vulnerable, not to mention that in order to get full damage, you need a champ like Amumu or Galio to keep their team in one place. Most people use it to clear large waves though, because it i too dangerous to use it in teamfights and auto-attacking can deal more damage in most situations.

I feel as though MF is supposed to be an early- to mid-game ADC, while a champ like Vayne or Kog is supposed to be a late-game ADC. She's supposed to win her lane through bullying and use that to keep an item advantage over her enemy counterpart. Now Vayne, she's just very strong right now, so she's not a great comparison.

Cloud Potato2 votes

Looking at her kit as a whole she still feels a lot like a Mage. The only real benefit she gets from Attack Speed is to apply W stacks faster. Personally I'd like to see her more focused on being a Mage/Marksman hybrid rather than making her more ADC like. AD/AP builds have never really worked properly, but MF is still functional building either one or the other. Plus, the fact that she gets a lot of physical and magical damage regardless of build is neat.

I kinda feel that she's not strong enough to be a true threat unless she builds ADC, though. And there's plenty of champs who can do that better. That said, the suggestions 1-3 all make sense regardless of whether you want her to be more standard or keep her uniqueness. All R needs is to have less ramp-up. R already has a lot of counterplay to it, and the only real way to get W stacks up beforehand is to put yourself in extended danger, which doesn't really work out unless you're massively ahead, so it amplifies snowballing.

DynasticMule1 votes

{quoted}

Her original design was to be a mid-laner (back before the duo bot meta) who can roam (her passive) and gank (her E's slow and the range of her ult), while providing AoE damage in teamfights (her Q, E, and R). Obviously, the meta changed, while MF's kit did not.

  1. Double Up is designed to make MF a lane bully. When they changed her Q, they added the "crit" on the second shot for this reason (You kill a minion and get bonus damage on your opponent). It is annoying to predict where it will go, as it sometimes seems random. However, late-game, you are very correct. The first hit is pretty much worse than a crit with full build.

  2. Impure Shots is now supposed to synergize with her ult now. The idea is that you ult, hit your opponents with 6-8 waves, and auto with max stacks (36-48% AD for 6-8 stacks). Her ult is a completely different issue though.

  3. I've found her W Strut to be useful when she is running through the jungle, or running from a lane, but that's it. Strut is supposed to give her mobility between lanes, but with the change to W showing that that is not entirely the intended effect anymore, they really should give her a small window of safety from minions.

  4. Her ult sounds like it should do lots of damage (at max rank, 1000 total physical damage with 384% AD magic damage from Impure Shots (at 8 stacks from the start)), but it makes her vulnerable, not to mention that in order to get full damage, you need a champ like Amumu or Galio to keep their team in one place. Most people use it to clear large waves though, because it i too dangerous to use it in teamfights and auto-attacking can deal more damage in most situations.

I feel as though MF is supposed to be an early- to mid-game ADC, while a champ like Vayne or Kog is supposed to be a late-game ADC. She's supposed to win her lane through bullying and use that to keep an item advantage over her enemy counterpart. Now Vayne, she's just very strong right now, so she's not a great comparison.

I really like this answer, very thoughtful.

Remlap12237 votes

Here's how you fix those 4 problems:

  1. Scale the first target hit by Q to 100%, and the second to 120%, and adjust the base scaling accordingly. Have the cast time decrease as attack speed increases.
  2. Give impure shots scaling magic penetration per level of the skill. Lower the AD ratio to 5%, but have the magic damage be able to crit.
  3. Give strut minion immunity at level 11, and a permanent 25 MS buff at level 16 (i.e. the passive can only be lowered to 25, instead of being completely knocked off).
  4. Scale her ultimate to 75 / 100 / 125 and have it apply two impure shots stacks per wave.
chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Here's how you fix those 4 problems:

  1. Scale the first target hit by Q to 100%, and the second to 120%, and adjust the base scaling accordingly. Have the cast time decrease as attack speed increases.
  2. Give impure shots scaling magic penetration per level of the skill. Lower the AD ratio to 5%, but have the magic damage be able to crit.
  3. Give strut minion immunity at level 11, and a permanent 25 MS buff at level 16 (i.e. the passive can only be lowered to 25, instead of being completely knocked off).
  4. Scale her ultimate to 75 / 100 / 125 and have it apply two impure shots stacks per wave.

why not make her Strut be safe for a few seconds rather than Garen-izing it?

Remlap12233 votes

{quoted}

why not make her Strut be safe for a few seconds rather than Garen-izing it?

Because it's healthier QOL-wise. The biggest issue I have with MF is how easily it is to knock her passive off. I'd be ok if it was just Caitlyn or Sivir aggro doing that, but 9/10 times I lose Strut to minion aggro rather than champion aggro. Garen -izing it would make her passive actually exist in the late game. It would also allow her to charge past minions to secure kills in the mid game. Two birds with one stone, without pushing her early game over the top.

Lugg6 votes

Her ult is completely ignored by any champion that has even one armor item. It needs to be an ability where the enemy team has to immediately stop what they are doing and GTFO of the AoE.

If they made that one change, she would be viable.

AkabaneKun4 votes

{quoted}

Her ult is completely ignored by any champion that has even one armor item. It needs to be an ability where the enemy team has to immediately stop what they are doing and GTFO of the AoE.

If they made that one change, she would be viable.

Yeah, they should make it shred armor with each hit, making it do more dmg the longer ppl stay on it and help others, that way ppl would actually respect MF lategame and not the joke it is now.

Auryiel6 votes

Early S3 MF in deathball comps building all AD/ArPen

Her ult felt fucking impactful back then

And then they added magic damage that scales with AD and physical damage that scales with AP. Wut?

jpf313 votes

Shes useless in meta. Bruisers / assasin jump on her and it's over.

Take another champ

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

so just spam play Vayne

Stiv12342 votes

They could also make the W active remove slows... though I'm not sure which is more appropriate.

AdanChristo2 votes

stay bronze

Immortal Strife7 votes

{quoted}

stay bronze

Are you sad that you lost trying to support a MF, or do you think that you are something special because I can assure you that you are not. Maybe you think people who pick MF are scrubs but from looking at you history I'd say picking op meta champion like Diana and Shyvana is no less "bronze" than picking MF.

BuzzinTate2 votes

I guess the reason why she can't move is because Lucian has almost the same ult but it can't pass through minions and shoots in a straight line.. It'd be nice though if she could at least angle it like a velkoz ult

Silver Fluffenbu2 votes

I think MF's ult is very useful for clearing out minion waves

Immortal Strife1 votes

Her W strut activation is fine with the implantation of shields preserving her strut passive-hint buy a BT. Everything else I can agree with especially MF's cast times being too long, however you should still be using her double up in team fights when you can tag two opponents with it.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Immortal Strife,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BB7Rlgnu,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-07T19:07:42.478+0000)

Her W strut activation is fine with the implantation of shields preserving her strut passive-hint buy a BT. Everything else I can agree with especially MF's cast times being too long, however you should still be using her double up in team fights when you can tag two opponents with it.

The normal rush is IE. You'll fall behind hard if you have to buy a BT just to preserve the passive while everyone else can buy an IE.

Centuros2 votes

The thing is, when you are activating W for a Strut refresh, you have already taken damage to remove Strut in the first place; BT shield can't easily be applied in this situation (unless you don't REALLY need the movespeed, in which case you just wait a few seconds for it to turn on by itself).

General Esdeath 1 votes

They should remove the impure shots passive for her ult and just let the thing scale with AD like Jinx's ult does. Maybe it does more damage the farther they are from her?

BUDDHISTINK1 votes

I kind of agree, playing miss fortune have very few(if any) satisfying moments even when winning.

Sire Hippington1 votes

agree on everything but the ult. If used right the ult packs alot aoe from a save distance while stacking up W, so you pack heavy damage afterwards. I'd like to add that Q is far to unreliable, the aoe or the range of the bounce should get a bit bigger.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BB7Rlgnu,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-09-07T21:11:54.223+0000)

agree on everything but the ult. If used right the ult packs alot aoe from a save distance while stacking up W, so you pack heavy damage afterwards. I'd like to add that Q is far to unreliable, the aoe or the range of the bounce should get a bit bigger.

The thing requires her to be too still for too long just shooting in one spot. If it was just a few volleys, that'd be fine. However, it's not. It just sits pretty and lets her get killed before getting its total damage output out.

Sire Hippington1 votes

it has a 1400 range, if you get easily killed duering your ult, your team either failed to ward the flanks or you were way out of position.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BB7Rlgnu,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-09-07T22:14:51.145+0000)

it has a 1400 range, if you get easily killed duering your ult, your team either failed to ward the flanks or you were way out of position.

Or they just dove you or you realized that if you're too far away it's too easy to get out of your ult's range.

The problem is that it's so dang easy to just..walk out of it in most instances.

Centerpoint3601 votes

I agree with most of those things, but as a SilverTM MissFortune player, I disagree with a few of those things.

1: Increased animation speed? Yes plz. 2: If you get item 3085, (so challenjour), you can spread your passive to the backline while hitting whatever tank is in front of you. When you get the chance to actually auto their carry, they'll already have a few stacks on them, making you deal a lot more damage than you'd think. 3: Well, yeah. It isn't the worst thing ever now though. It's usable, though its not that great. 4: HER ULT IS AMAZING. If your team can lock down the enemy long enough to get a full ult on someone, you're garunteed to shred at least 1/3 or 1/2 of their health off. Not only will her ult shred carries, but tanks as well. It gives no fucks.

Her early game Q is broken as shit, late game her E + autos are devastating, W is helpful for fights and ok for escaping, and her ult is AOE Tank/Carry Shred 101. She doesn't have a solid kit that can be used all game, her abilities and playstyle change as the game goes on. Personally, I love it. <3

(She's the only ADC I can think of - bar Draven - who can 1v1 Kalista late game and win.)

The Loveless1 votes

I would like Runaan's to be an option on MF, but currently, she's weak and is better off getting shiv or PD to boost her crit, rather than RH to boost a small amount of magic damage.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Changes are already in testing and undergoing final tweaks/waiting for approval last I heard from Riot (last week I think).

Elphrihaim1 votes

As somebody who doesn't actually play MF, I have to agree with most of this, chipndip1. Her ult's damage is a little too low, her Q is insufficiently useful ("my kit has three buttons" late-game why?), she's too easy to catch from only a tiny placement issue.

So definitely agree on the W active preventing strut from being removed--or perhaps making Strut's MS bonus decay over time after being hit by default.

Not really sold on her Q being poor, but maybe that's because I can't tell the difference between it and her AA animation-wise.

Maybe--an easy fix for Impure Shots would be instead of 6% AD stacking 5/6/7/8 times, 6/7.33/8.66/10% AD stacking 5 times--still scaling off of ultimate rank, of course.

That would also improve her ultimate a bit-- it would reach a (2% AD) higher amount of bonus damage and it would reach that amount faster, which means a higher number of waves would benefit from the bonus.

Glory to God1 votes

From what I have observed, this is mostly what most people say about MF. Coming from a dedicated MissFortune main, here are my thoughts:

  1. This is probably the best buff that she can have: she can build early Attack speed so her Qs are hard to dodge.

  2. Can't really agree. You see, MF is the type of adc that can build multiple builds against multiple comps. For example: Are you facing Vayne in lane? Build item 3142 to outduel her while also activating W, maybe with an early item 3072 . Do they have a lot of tanks, while none of my teammates can build item 3071 ? Get it fast and your ult will deal much more damage. Do they also have a lot of MR? Get item 3085 and item 3091 . I'm really serious about this one. You'll deal like 250 magic damage on-hit which goes even further, since these items go well with Impure Shots. And if they have a lot of squishies you can build item 3046 and stuff like that.

  3. Agreed. Somewhat. The strut reactivation is, in fact, useful in some situations, like if you're being chased by a melee or chasing people after they dueled you.

  4. Unless you have item 3071 , her ult isn't very substantial. However it still helps in teamfights, dealing like 500 total dmg to the enemy carries if fully channeled.

Red Ryu1 votes

As someone who is trying to get lvl 5 mastery with her, I am not so sure.

  1. I agree completely.

2.) I don't agree, Vayne is a bit too strong right now and she is meant to be a late game monster. MF is suppose to be a lane bully that can fit in as an AoE damage carry for teamfighting.

3.) might be possible, it's fine right now for the most part but yeah maybe this would be a lot better.

4.) Riot has something planned for this, gonna wait and see about this. I do find landing a few autos then ulting actually helps a lot for melting the frontline faster.

Orbv1 votes

I always thought that (1) Miss Fortune's Ult should not be reliant on her passive for damage. OR (2) if it were reliant, that instead of doing damage per impure shot stack, it should deal damage based on the # of impure shot stacks that can still be applied.

At least this way, the burst of her damage comes first, and it gets weaker as it goes on. It would still stack impure shots, but you wouldn't have to wait until the end to deal the main damage. MF almost never lands her entire ult on enemies, her stationary cone is too limiting.

OrchidBoy1 votes

play AP MF , watch yourself get most dmg on both teams

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

play AP MF , watch yourself get most dmg on both teams

Except not really...

That shit's just a gimmick.

iainB851 votes

If they just made her Q an active "buff" that caused her next auto to fire the double up shot that would fix the casting time problem.

However, if MF's Q is an auto attack reset that would be a nerf to her early game (haven't played MF in ages so can't remember if it is or not).

AmazingGoat1 votes

ITT I learn the only problems with MF are her Q, W, passive, and R. Her E apparently is fine. So that's good news.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

ITT I learn the only problems with MF are her Q, W, passive, and R. Her E apparently is fine. So that's good news.

It is fine. It's only a slow, but it's on a relatively low cd, too. Coupled with the fact that she can instantaneously make herself the fastest character in the game, her E is fair game as is.

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