Boards›Gameplay

Unpopular Opinion: Riot MIGHT have done the right thing with the jungle

chipndip1··13 votes·4,195 views

Not making this too long because I'm about to go out and play Smash Bros. for a bit, but I want to put this out there because someone on these boards made a good point as to why someone like LS would say power farmers are buffed and not nerfed this patch:

Risk of Failure

Before now, if a Lee Sin or whatever failed a gank, there was so much exp in the jungle that they could rubber band themselves back to comparable exp with the enemy jungler if they just focused on farming while that Lee or whatever ganked lanes, unless the enemy jungler stole a good camp, like Krugs. With reduced exp, if Lee Sin succeeds all his ganks, he gets rewarded by just shooting himself up with champ exp that replaces the missing camp exp. If he fails, he just wasted his time and he gets significantly reduced exp in comparison to before now.

That stupid cheese shit where junglers just sit on top of your lane for a minute or two straight? That shit is heavily punished because they can't catch back up to the other guy's exp nearly as well. Someone failing multiple ganks in a row? Also significantly punished. Meanwhile, farming junglers get guaranteed gains and don't have to gamble as hard or as often, and only need to gank when most, if not all, of their camps are cleared. Power farmers can also quickly steal enemy jungler camps if they see that the enemy jungler is out and about on the wrong side of the map for too long. Losing a Krugs camp or two could be dire, now.

We'll have to see how things pan out, though. If it pans out, though, it could finally give meaning to Nunu in this game so here's hoping it does. If it DOESN'T...fuck this champion.

25 Comments

Yenn4 votes

Getting counter-jungled is now significantly worse than it was before; you're completely and utterly fucked with no way to catch up if you/your team can't defend your jungle, which isn't okay, because being counter-jungled is less of a result of skill disparity and more a result of team compositions.

These changes were overall not good. Reducing aggression towards lanes was fine, but it just increased aggression towards the other jungle and destroyed the ability to catch up from behind.

LilRooster2 votes

I don't know about anyone else, but I hate counter jungling as a concept. It's very much akin to the deny mechanic in DoTA. On the one hand it looks like another way to "skillfully out play your opponent" but in practice it's just something that exacerbates pre-existing problems. Weak early game? Get absolutely F*c@D Now! Bad skirmisher? Loss 3 camps to your opponent! Bad composition can't push out their lanes? Get hard invaded!

It adds nothing to the game really, and instead punishes things that are generally out of your control besides picking a champion in champ select. Everyone knows how much we love deciding games in champ select.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Getting counter-jungled is now significantly worse than it was before; you're completely and utterly fucked with no way to catch up if you/your team can't defend your jungle, which isn't okay, because being counter-jungled is less of a result of skill disparity and more a result of team compositions.

Then don't draft dumb. I thought you guys wanted this game to be "strategic"?

Yenn2 votes

{quoted}

Then don't draft dumb. I thought you guys wanted this game to be "strategic"?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just have absolutely no knowledge of how the jungle/game in general works.

Within the top tier jungles, every match up is completely binary, with no real skill impact. If you're playing X and you get caught by Y, one of you flat out wins the duel, no matter what; there is no outplay potential for the loser, and the only way to win is if your team mate joins you.

However, your top and mid lane also needs to be able to survive away from the turret and win their duel, in order to help you. If you have a mage laned against an assassin, they can virtually never help defend your jungle. They'll be intercepted by the assassin while they try to reach you.

This isn't 'drafting dumb,' half the players in the game always have to be the first to pick for their lane and run the risk of unfavorable match ups, and your entire team shouldn't have to pick their champions with the sole purpose of defending your jungle.

The thigh guy2 votes

Problem being perma ganking a lane is hardly punishable now, and this will make it even less so.

I used to play kayn and if someone ganked a lane I was able to punish by grabbing poachers dirk and instantly invading them. Now that tactic doesn’t work because pochers is gone and now they lose and I gain even less from this endevour.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4y0LbqB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-24T18:29:48.581+0000)

Problem being perma ganking a lane is hardly punishable now, and this will make it even less so.

I used to play kayn and if someone ganked a lane I was able to punish by grabbing poachers dirk and instantly invading them. Now that tactic doesn’t work because pochers is gone and now they lose and I gain even less from this endevour.

They lose less, but their exp gain comparative to the whole game is less. They can't afford to lose too many camps or they'll be at the support's level by the time laning's done.

If you chain gank and succeed, the reward is "not being affected by this change". If you fail, the risk is that it's going to be harder to bounce back into the game as the jungler.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

They lose less, but their exp gain comparative to the whole game is less. They can't afford to lose too many camps or they'll be at the support's level by the time laning's done.

If you chain gank and succeed, the reward is "not being affected by this change". If you fail, the risk is that it's going to be harder to bounce back into the game as the jungler.

Except no? Spam ganking is risking even less. Yes there’s less xp in the jungle, but when they invade you, you’re still losing less than if you just hard ganked before this change.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4y0LbqB,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-24T23:15:44.578+0000)

Except no? Spam ganking is risking even less. Yes there’s less xp in the jungle, but when they invade you, you’re still losing less than if you just hard ganked before this change.

So where's your exp going to come from? Putting your whole team behind while you constantly gank without ever returning to the jg?

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

So where's your exp going to come from? Putting your whole team behind while you constantly gank without ever returning to the jg?

Where is it coming from now? Because it sure as hell isnt the camps.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4y0LbqB,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-25T00:57:04.343+0000)

Where is it coming from now? Because it sure as hell isnt the camps.

...you DIDN'T do Krugs? That's where it came from before.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

...you DIDN'T do Krugs? That's where it came from before.

NO. It came from forcing the enemy laners out, if not killing them (granting xp) forcing down their turret (granting xp) then Rotating and killing the laner (granting xp) and likely taking the turret (granting xp) etc etc. all while sharing minion xp. All of this total wound up being more than the current jungle xp.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4y0LbqB,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-25T01:00:27.569+0000)

NO. It came from forcing the enemy laners out, if not killing them (granting xp) forcing down their turret (granting xp) then Rotating and killing the laner (granting xp) and likely taking the turret (granting xp) etc etc. all while sharing minion xp. All of this total wound up being more than the current jungle xp.

Like I said: You're only thinking about success cases.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Like I said: You're only thinking about success cases.

No. I’m not. The failed case in this situation is the laner backs off and you take the turret or a few plates. You’re still getting more xp than a camp will give you in about the same time.

chipndip13 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B4y0LbqB,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-25T02:00:57.893+0000)

No. I’m not.

You're lying.

The failed case in this situation is the laner backs off and you take the turret or a few plates.

That's why you're lying. Conversation is over.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

You're lying.

That's why you're lying. Conversation is over.

Congrats. You failed to make an argument and instead just point falsities because you failed to make an argument. Yeah. This conversation is done.

IP Masquerena5 votes

A failed gank is one where you don't kill the enemy laner nor manage to burn his flash or even worse, one or both of you die (or all 3 for bot lane). Burning summoners from the enemy is still considered a successful gank because it puts your laner at a summoners advantage.

A gank can fail like that for many reasons, like your laner who has the CC to initiate refuses to initiate.

So yes, you don't think of failed ganks, only about successful ones.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

A failed gank is one where you don't kill the enemy laner nor manage to burn his flash or even worse, one or both of you die (or all 3 for bot lane). Burning summoners from the enemy is still considered a successful gank because it puts your laner at a summoners advantage.

A gank can fail like that for many reasons, like your laner who has the CC to initiate refuses to initiate.

So yes, you don't think of failed ganks, only about successful ones.

Except ganks are facilitated by midlaners also roaming with the jungler now.

So that immedietly creates a 3v1 or a 2v4 scenario. If you fuck up THAT bad to lose in this spot you deserve it.

And no, you can’t account laners not going in. This is the average. In the average a laner will go in.

If we look at the worst case scenario as our point of arguments for everything, everything looks worthless. You can’t point to a game of jinx where someone went 0/77 to a zed and say “well at this point she was absolutely worthless” No. You have to look at the average of games.

The average is at the moment, mid and jungle gank and the lane they chose to gank is forced out from their turret to lose it or multiple plates (the average) or to die and lose multiple plates (the best case) and then the worst is almost never going to happen being that you get 1v3d. Which as previously stated if that happens you deserve it.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

{quoted}

Not making this too long because I'm about to go out and play Smash Bros. for a bit, but I want to put this out there because someone on these boards made a good point as to why someone like LS would say power farmers are buffed and not nerfed this patch:

Risk of Failure

Before now, if a Lee Sin or whatever failed a gank, there was so much exp in the jungle that they could rubber band themselves back to comparable exp with the enemy jungler if they just focused on farming while that Lee or whatever ganked lanes, unless the enemy jungler stole a good camp, like Krugs. With reduced exp, if Lee Sin succeeds all his ganks, he gets rewarded by just shooting himself up with champ exp that replaces the missing camp exp. If he fails, he just wasted his time and he gets significantly reduced exp in comparison to before now.

This isn't part of the reason dude. The main reason champions such as Lee Sin, Graves, Khazix, and Xin Zhao could farm the jungle while chain ganking was due to their ability to not only contest scuttle crab but also due to their powerful early ganking ability and high respawn timer for the jungle camps. This meant you could gank, then go back to farming with a minimal loss of exp within the jungle. This change didn't alter the chain ganking. Lee sin can still come in, kick you in the face, and if it doesnt work out he still gains exp from the lane and goes back to farming. Power junglers are hurt by this change because they lack the ability to immediately gank a lane then return to farming with ease because of the nature of their level spikes. So a champion such as Evelynn and Warwick is hurt badly because they lack the high impact power that Xin and Lee Sin would have, while still having comparatively similar farming speeds. In the case of the latter, even worse until tiamat is built.

That stupid cheese shit where junglers just sit on top of your lane for a minute or two straight? That shit is heavily punished because they can't catch back up to the other guy's exp nearly as well. Someone failing multiple ganks in a row? Also significantly punished. Meanwhile, farming junglers get guaranteed gains and don't have to gamble as hard or as often, and only need to gank when most, if not all, of their camps are cleared. Power farmers can also quickly steal enemy jungler camps if they see that the enemy jungler is out and about on the wrong side of the map for too long. Losing a Krugs camp or two could be dire, now.

Not really, because again, as Lee Sin I can easily do red, gank, scuttle (restores hp), raptors, and gank you on the way to my south jungle. That is why chain gankers function so well. Jungle respawn timers are high, so the loss of exp is low.

We'll have to see how things pan out, though. If it pans out, though, it could finally give meaning to Nunu in this game so here's hoping it does. If it DOESN'T...fuck this champion.

At the cost of screwing over the mass majority of jungle champs. A better change would have been to also decrease the respawn timers of jungle camps. This way, there is a notable loss when chain gankers appear. They miss out on opportunity cost for gold/exp. As it stands, Lee Sin, Xin, Udyr, they will still dominate because they still have strong early ganking ability and can kill the jungle fast before going back to gank. powerfarmers cant, so they get screwed.

Alzon1 votes

You forgot to mention how camps don’t start giving more than Base EXP until after they’re killed the SECOND time. This is the biggest change, IMO. Powerfarmers, while they’ll get less EXP than before, will be less likely to fall behind (and chain gankers will be more susceptible to falling behind).

Abibyama II1 votes

Which is also why I've been saying that Karthus is broken in the jungle, and he's a power farmer that presses R occasionally for free kills

We'll have to see how things pan out, though. If it pans out, though, it could finally give meaning to Nunu in this game so here's hoping it does. If it DOESN'T...fuck this champion

Well duh, he still has his "Make the enemy jungler more useless than you" thing after the rework

Soraka Actually1 votes

What they did was drop the floor below any non-lv2 gankers. This means MORE Lee Sins, Yis, etc. They made it way riskier to have diverse choices in the jungle and made it so you will have to deal with jungles that actually need to camp you to stay competitive. Farming is no longer an option. It also means we will be taxing you big time, that part I can't wait for.item 3077

Aseraan1 votes

If any one champs like lee sin will not feel a thing from this at all since they always leech exp from the ganked lane.

rtbf2216514121 votes

If you get punished in lane, you can recover. If you get punished in jungle, good luck even farming with some champions for the next three to seven minutes.

LilRooster1 votes

I think a good summary of the problem with jungle is that it is too demanding on the jungler.

Right now in order to be a functioning jungler you need to have fast clear, great gank potential, great skirmishing power, and sustain enough to clear with good health pool. If you lack any of those things you will get overpowered by one of the special case Meta picks.

Riot has been looking at this the wrong way. If they want more champions to be viable they need to work on removing these requirements rather than dishing them out. Amumu for example. Jungle is his only role and he cannot skirmish before 6, he cannot clear as fast as most junglers, and he can't do a full or even half clear without at least backing once. He is forced to hope he never encounters the enemy jungler in pathing and all that does for him is get his foot in the door. No wonder he isn't Meta. But Riot's response this patch is to reduce exp in the jungle, meaning what?

The jungle is now even harder because it adds yet another requirement, you have to be impactful pre 6. That is yet another thing that Amumu does not excel at, so the gap is only going to grow. The fringe cases of champions that are good at all of these things will continue to dominate, and more and more Riot will wonder why they just can't seem to balance Amumu for jungle and team fighting.

ROYALR3IGN1 votes

{quoted}

Not making this too long because I'm about to go out and play Smash Bros. for a bit, but I want to put this out there because someone on these boards made a good point as to why someone like LS would say power farmers are buffed and not nerfed this patch:

Risk of Failure

Before now, if a Lee Sin or whatever failed a gank, there was so much exp in the jungle that they could rubber band themselves back to comparable exp with the enemy jungler if they just focused on farming while that Lee or whatever ganked lanes, unless the enemy jungler stole a good camp, like Krugs. With reduced exp, if Lee Sin succeeds all his ganks, he gets rewarded by just shooting himself up with champ exp that replaces the missing camp exp. If he fails, he just wasted his time and he gets significantly reduced exp in comparison to before now.

That stupid cheese shit where junglers just sit on top of your lane for a minute or two straight? That shit is heavily punished because they can't catch back up to the other guy's exp nearly as well. Someone failing multiple ganks in a row? Also significantly punished. Meanwhile, farming junglers get guaranteed gains and don't have to gamble as hard or as often, and only need to gank when most, if not all, of their camps are cleared. Power farmers can also quickly steal enemy jungler camps if they see that the enemy jungler is out and about on the wrong side of the map for too long. Losing a Krugs camp or two could be dire, now.

We'll have to see how things pan out, though. If it pans out, though, it could finally give meaning to Nunu in this game so here's hoping it does. If it DOESN'T...fuck this champion.

I actually love playing Nunu now and I play him really gank heavy even though hes supposed to be farm heavy. I don't really like the idea of a jg spending all of their time sitting in one lane but I hate the idea of Yi/Shyvana never leaving the Jg for 20 minutes much more so i can't say I like these changes all that much.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by chipndip1

So lemme get this straight...again...
Gameplay253 comments
185
votes
Assassins shouldn't be able to just 1v2 freely. Stop asking for it.
Gameplay211 comments
170
votes
It's kind of bullshit that Ryze gets this much attention
Gameplay178 comments
145
votes
I seriously meant "Tell people to upgrade their trinket"...
Gameplay50 comments
144
votes
If you frame champ balance like this, stop talking about champ balance
Gameplay64 comments
122
votes
Honestly: "Scaling into being unstoppable" isn't an acceptable game play niche
Gameplay130 comments
122
votes