Boards›Gameplay

Challenge: Can anyone explain to me how Lee Sin is OP?

kcStranger··6 votes·2,326 views

I understand win rates aren't everything, but: Lee Sin's win rate (being generous and rounding up) is about 46%. (This number does not rise appreciably in Platinum/Diamond.) There are six champions with win rates worse than Lee Sin: Zilean, Evelynn, Kha'Zix, Elise, Kassadin, and Bard. Lee Sin is tremendously more popular than these champions, which presumably takes his win rate down a bit, but usually such effects don't amount to more than maybe 2%. And although he sees some pro play, he is by no means dominant at that level (generally Vi and Rek'Sai are preferred to him).

And yet I see a lot of calls for Lee Sin nerfs. And I just don't get it. The fact is, Lee Sin's strength is defined by a pile of numbers (base and growth stats, base power and ratios on his abilities, etc.), and for some values of those numbers, he will be underpowered; for others, balanced; and for others, overpowered. And I just don't see Lee Sin as being overpowered.

Could it be that the folks who want Lee Sin nerfs just don't enjoy playing against Lee Sin, to some extent regardless of his actual power level? (If this is you, what don't you like about him?)

31 Comments

Matthias91199 votes

I don't think he's OP since the nerfs he got last season.

His "problems" are:

  1. He's a safe pick. It's hard to counterpick him because the junglers that take advantage of his weakness (late game team fighting) tend to be weak against his early game dueling/ganking. Also he can build in a few different directions depending on how the game is going.

  2. He's popular and people get sick of going up against him. He also sees a lot of pro play because of his safety and high skillcap, and some people who watch LCS dislike seeing the same champions all the time.

  3. Because of his high mobility and disengage potential, he can be frustrating to fight even if he's not having a huge game impact. His Q and W can both be used to escape in the jungle, and if his ult's up he can just kick you away if you get the jump on him.

Riot has talked about the need to manufacture some sort of weakness in his kit, which would require reworking him to some extent. But apparently the rework ideas they tried out last year were all terrible.

kcStranger2 votes

Thanks for the insight; that seems like a reasonable breakdown of the situation to me. Point 2 as regards pro play hasn't been such a big deal recently, though.

I think the main weakness that he has is that he's actually under a lot of pressure to have a good early game, since if he doesn't his late-game teamfighting is fairly weak imo (he has to really expose himself to do much good). So if the opponents just play safely and don't get repeatedly ganked, they've got a good shot. People probably don't enjoy champs that force them to play safely/passively, though.

Divewing1 votes

It's not so much that as: OMG I CAUGHT LEE IN OUR JUNGLE, WE CAN PUT HIM SUPER BEHIND NOW, HOLY SHIT THIS CHANCE!!!!! Is now gone cos too much escape..........

Divewing2 votes

^ basically a lot of this. If you wanted a super crude and short version: playing against lee sin is cancerous

Kitten of Evil8 votes

He's not OP, his kit is just overloaded. He has everything -- an execute, true sight on a skill which AOE slows, two mobility skills, a shield which also provides him sustain, an ult that displaces an enemy and can CC (knockup) multiple enemies, and all of this on skills with fairly decent ratios... there's not much more you could ask for. Though honestly, the problem children for overloaded kits are probably Nidalee, Thresh and Kalista. Again, none of whom are OP, just have too much crammed into their kits.

I think if Riot addresses overloaded kits by paring them down a bit, they could do a better job of accentuating champions' individual strengths and weaknesses. So I'm all for taking some things out of Lee and others' kits, for that reason alone. They could be buffed accordingly afterwards.

kcStranger2 votes

OK, that position is at least reasonable. That said, I feel that these strengths are offset by the fact that Lee Sin's teamfight presence isn't the best; he really has to expose himself to do much damage. (He's much better in pick/skirmish situations.) The fact that he's melee also plays into this. That puts a lot of pressure on Lee Sin to make a big impact in the early game (which admittedly is where his kit is very, very good).

krawkaw2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B3a0Ossj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-08T03:08:29.317+0000)

He's not OP, his kit is just overloaded. He has everything -- an execute, true sight on a skill which AOE slows, two mobility skills, a shield which also provides him sustain, an ult that displaces an enemy and can CC (knockup) multiple enemies, and all of this on skills with fairly decent ratios... there's not much more you could ask for. Though honestly, the problem children for overloaded kits are probably Nidalee, Thresh and Kalista. Again, none of whom are OP, just have too much crammed into their kits.

I think if Riot addresses overloaded kits by paring them down a bit, they could do a better job of accentuating champions' individual strengths and weaknesses. So I'm all for taking some things out of Lee and others' kits, for that reason alone. They could be buffed accordingly afterwards.

This exactly ^^

Rivvy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B3a0Ossj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-08T03:08:29.317+0000)

He's not OP, his kit is just overloaded. He has everything -- an execute, true sight on a skill which AOE slows, two mobility skills, a shield which also provides him sustain, an ult that displaces an enemy and can CC (knockup) multiple enemies, and all of this on skills with fairly decent ratios... there's not much more you could ask for. Though honestly, the problem children for overloaded kits are probably Nidalee, Thresh and Kalista. Again, none of whom are OP, just have too much crammed into their kits.

I think if Riot addresses overloaded kits by paring them down a bit, they could do a better job of accentuating champions' individual strengths and weaknesses. So I'm all for taking some things out of Lee and others' kits, for that reason alone. They could be buffed accordingly afterwards.

This- but overloaded kits can count for a champion being OP.

kcStranger1 votes

I disagree. If the tuning of a champ's abilities don't help them win an unfair share of games, they aren't OP, regardless of how attractive they may be. They could still be unfun to play against, though.

Sirsir5 votes

Its more of a habit at this point really.

Basically it comes down to him being an early game powerhouse in a role with a generally weak early game (jungle) and a really really easy first blood invade. From there he can snowball and he doesn't fall off as hard as most with such a good early, even if he fails.

His low winrate probably comes down to people being unable to use his strengths effectively. Lee can only be effective from behind if he can insec reliably and quickly, and I don't think I've seen a lee sin thats invaded me early. Even as Amumu. Plus the noobtrap of damage, pure damage lee sin rarely works.

Teridax684 votes

I don't think LeeSin is overpowered, rather, he's overloaded and balanced around that (hence the low win rate). He's been made statistically weaker over the years, but his core issue is that he still has so many mechanics that he doesn't really have a real weakness to exploit on a play-by-play basis (as opposed to him falling off late-game, which is itself mitigated by his always-useful utility and Insec kick capabilities). Because he's so versatile, adaptable and historically popular, he's pretty much the default pick for a lot of junglers if they're not sure what to do, which until recently has been crowding out a lot of other junglers. He doesn't need any nerfs, but he does need to have a genuine weakness besides poor scalings, which would allow him to receive significant buffs elsewhere. It's also why it's difficult to change Lee: changing him would involve giving him a gameplay niche, and therefore specific strengths and weaknesses, but his defining feature right now is his extreme jack-of-all-trades effectiveness, so Riot needs to form a very clear idea of what they want to bring out in Lee before doing anything to him.

IcyPepper2 votes

but he does need to have a genuine weakness besides poor scalings

His ult deals a shit ton of damage. 200% bonus AD is hardly poor.

Not to mention his missing hp% execute on his Q. :/

Martyrofsand3 votes

Lee Sin's strengths are no piles of numbers. Lee Sin's strength, and why he is in fact OP, is due to his versatility. Think about it. What does a Sej who is 3 leveks below someone do? Throw her ult and die. What does a Lee sin who is 3 levels below someone do? Insec someone and die.

What does a Shyvana vs a Sej do when the game starts? Invade and bury her in the jungle all day. What does a Lee Sin vs Sej do when the game starts? Invade and bury her in the jungle all day.

When facing someone who will counter jungle him what does J4 do? Gank every lane. When facing someone who will counter jungle him what does Lee Sin do? Gank every lane.

Lee Sin has the flexibility of a tank jungler who can get shut down and still be relevant because of their CC, the early game counter jungle and dueling potential of a Shyvana as well as the ganking potential of a J4. He is literally every you could want in a jungle champ with none of the faults. Since learning Lee Sin not a single one of my games has been alike. Some games I'm the counter jungling beast, others I'm a ganking mad man and still others I'm an insec bot. He can literally do it all and its rather absurd how well he does it.

kcStranger1 votes

First of all, I'm guessing your summoner name is a Magic: The Gathering reference? If so, very nice :)

The numbers on Lee Sin's abilities matter, though. Imagine I kept the wording on the abilities the same, but halved all the damage. Or cut the ult knockback in half, the shield duration in half, the Resonating Strike range/missile speed in half, etc. Obviously those are extreme nerfs, but the point is that with Lee Sin as with any champ, if you make the numbers associated with those abilities bad enough, you'll trash the champ. (With Lee Sin, I think the most notable weaknesses are that he's melee and that he has to get up in people's grill to be effective.)

I understand how Lee Sin's kit gives him a lot of early-game versatility, but imo he can be rather lackluster in later teamfighting if he doesn't get ahead.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Matthias91191 votes

The problem is that with significantly lower numbers he'd be unviable, and with lower utility (usually people want to remove ward hopping and/or the "insec" combo) he's basically a worse version of Vi or J4.

Martyrofsand2 votes

Yes my name is from MTG.

As for your comments at this point you are not talking about numbers you are talking about flat out removing his kit, and any champ without a kit won't be very effective. Of the few you said that are numbers related, sure cut his damage and reduce his shield and know what you got? An insec bot with an AoE slow who will build things like Locket/Randuins/etc and be a utility tank, you know exactly what Lee does now if the game goes long and his damage starts to fall off.

Numbers are not Lees issue, its always been about how versitile his kit is and that it allows him to be relevant at all stages of the game, against all opponents, and even allows him to completely push others out of the jungle all together. There is a reason the term "Lee Sin bar" became a thing. You are either able to compete with Lee in the jungle, or you don't jungle its as simple as that.

TheSlogs2 votes

He is a really good pick the mistake you are making is that his popularity causes everyone to play him. Even those in plat+ may decide to just pick him up for a solid jungle pick, but he isn't quite that easy to play.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

kcStranger1 votes

That 20% number is too high imo. Right now lolking shows Sejuani at the highest win rate (56.2%) and Bard at the lowest (40.1%). There's no way popularity is changing the balance on a single champion by more than the spread between the highest and lowest in the game. Even if you're just talking about 20% relative to a reasonable baseline (say 50%, so a 10% difference in overall winrate), I'm very skeptical. At best I'd say a skew of perhaps 5% is conceivable (making Lee Sin at best a 51% champion "actually").

I wouldn't dispute your specific points, though.

Bijorn1 votes

{quoted}

That 20% number is too high imo. Right now lolking shows Sejuani at the highest win rate (56.2%) and Bard at the lowest (40.1%).

I hope you know that Sej has one of the lowest picks of any champ, right? That will then come to show that the people who do pick her are quite good with her. But she is also just generally very strong so that doesn't help the situation lol.

As for your original question...

Lee is not OP in my opinion. I don't see threads stating that he is anymore. Rather, we still see threads on him but that are asking for nerfs. WHy? Because he has everything. Mobility, damage, sustain, assassination potential, safe, etc. He is not high risk high reward. He is a jack of all trades, master of none. That is why people want him nerfed. Give him straight up weaknesses. Yes, he does fall off late game in the regards to damage. But that is not a weakness IMO (some will disagree, and that is fine :) ).

He just needs to not have EVERYTHING for most of the game. Something needs to be taken away from him. As to what? I have no idea. I have no problem playing against a Lee personally. Just don't believe the balance of his kit was done correctly/I am surprised things haven't been done to his kit to make him have clear strengths and weaknesses (as RIOT has been stating they want to do for each champ for a long, long time now.).

kcStranger1 votes

Actually, Sejuani's pick rate is on the high side right now (12.1%). And her ban rate is 70.8%. We'll have to see how the 5.7 Cinderhulk nerf affects her, though.

I hear you on the rest. I've been watching a lot of pro play recently, and he's definitely not oppressive at that level, but I can see how he might be a little worse in solo queue where the laning phase is usually extended and teamfights aren't as coordinated.

Bijorn1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Sejuani's pick rate is on the high side right now (12.1%). And her ban rate is 70.8%. We'll have to see how the 5.7 Cinderhulk nerf affects her, though.

I hear you on the rest. I've been watching a lot of pro play recently, and he's definitely not oppressive at that level, but I can see how he might be a little worse in solo queue where the laning phase is usually extended and teamfights aren't as coordinated.

I might have been speaking on a week-old statistic on the pick rate so if it changed thats my bad. But she was quite a low pick rate for a while even while seeing pro play. That has obviously changed lol.

With Lee, to me, the question needs to be "what can't he do?" That is a very difficult question to answer.

  • Damage? Yupp.
  • Kill potential? Oh yea.
  • Mobility? Actual factual.
  • Sustain? Mhm.
  • Play making? Correct.
  • Safe dives? As safe as they can be.
  • Clear speed? Yea.

The only weakness I can point out is that his damage falls lategame. But everything else is still there. So far this season Riot has really stepped up their game when it comes to balancing champs in my opinion. Just hope that smaller things begin to get fixed soon^tm like hitboxes and invisible skillshots.

Matthias91191 votes

Ban rates really shouldn't have much impact on winrate.

High pick rate on a high-skill champion can, but in that case you'd expect the champion to have a much better winrate at higher tiers of play. lee doesn't seem to follow this pattern, at least in solo queue.

Dies to Wolves2 votes

too safe, has TOO much stuff crammed in his kit, has way too much damage for the ammount of utility and mobility he brings

and about that win ratio, leblanc pretty much always had low win ratio - didn't matter. Same for elise, had low win ratio while she was popular and considered OP, still got nerfed and nerfed and nerfed

Hard4Hamsters2 votes

I think he'll become strong again in 5.8. Just a hunch, but item changes such as the one to Cinderhulk, and those upcoming in Randuins, and the Black Cleaver may give him more power in the late game, when he's weakest while also making Tank junglers take longer to scale up. I think he is still very strong early due to his insane scaling on his abilities. He has one of the strongest Ults in terms of damage + utility. And he has one of the safest kits in general. He's getting crowded out by tank junglers currently but it's hard for him to fall behind in games as he is not very gold or item dependent. He just falls off in the later parts of the game.

In summary, I think he will have less competition early from tank junglers, and he will be able to buy items that benefit him more later in the game in the form of Randuin's and Black Cleaver. He will still be in competition with other champions that will also benefit from these item changes though RekSai JarvanIV

Leti the Yeti1 votes

Well uuh I played lee sin once... (literally once) it was hard as shit, but early game.. holy geezus dis damage! lmao

IcyPepper1 votes

I wouldn't consider him OP, but he has the highest pick rate of all junglers last time I checked.

It's more annoying than anything else, and he excels at most things a jungler can do (counterjungling, invading, peels/engages). His main engage/skillshot is ranged while he's melee, meaning he has no risk if he wants to check a bush or misses. Even Vi, whose pick rate is almost as high and whose win rate has dropped to 48%, puts herself at risk at times if shes misses her Q.

I dunno. I just wish other junglers were more popular. Whenever I hear about an LCS player who mains Lee Sin in solo queue, it kind of makes me... yawn.

Widder881 votes

Lee Sins base damage is too high. If he builds tanky, he has his insec utility and is undieable because of his hops and his tankyness. But he has good damage too and this is the problem. He should be forced to decide between damage and utility. The high base damage make is early game too oppresive too. I ban him every time i can, even tough i know, that many wannabes suck with him, but i just really hate to play against him.

Phuc Dat Bich1 votes

strong ratios

and very safe pick

and an overload kit

yeah he need some tune down

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by kcStranger

OK Nidalee Haters, Let Me Try One Last Time
Gameplay194 comments
91
votes
4 out of 5 Bjergsens think Syndra could use a mana buff
Gameplay41 comments
40
votes
*This* is why you have a support
Gameplay76 comments
35
votes
Meditation/Expanded Mind Changes and Mid-Lane Mages
Gameplay28 comments
24
votes
Syndra public opinion poll
Gameplay63 comments
19
votes
Dear Rito, pls give us more mana (utility masteries discussion)
Gameplay5 comments
13
votes